Cushings Medications

[madmax]

May I ask for some opinions from those using Pergolide on their minis versus only dosing Chasteberry?

 

[chandab]

Don't know if I can help, but what do you want to know?

I have two on pergolide; one on compounded and one on Prascend (two different vets).

 

[shorthorsemom]

chasteberry didn't do anything that I could tell when I tried it. Wish I had put my pony on pergolide right away instead of waiting for the bloodwork on the cushings to come back first.

Have heard very decent results from a friend that had a mini mare on pergolide for many many years. She lived well into 30s on pergolide. She was well managed on this medication. New owner quit pergolide and mini mare foundered and had to be put down.

I would do the pergolide on my horse in a minute if I knew cushings was present. I would not try the chasteberry again. Now that said... I really didn't get the chance to try the chasteberry for very long. My pony foundered initially... he was coming along great in treatment and pain management... I tried chasteberry and cinnamon and finally did the bloodwork for cushings. He foundered again while waiting for blood test results. The vet overdosed him with bute and he had to be put to sleep for bute toxicity. I will forever wonder if I had put him right on the pergolide after the first founder if it would have changed the outcome and helped prevent the second wave founder attack. I regret waiting when the vet suggested I try pergolide even without bloodwork results. I got the positive cushings results 3 days after he was put to sleep. sigh.

My boy had no outward signs of cushings. No thick neck.. no curly hair... slick easily shed out coat, bright and shiny and adorable pony and not overweight. My first indication was the founder of a pony not getting any grass, dry plain grass hay. go figure

the other thing was that I got this older pony and the vet insisted on a full vaccination protocol for three consecutive months. Nt terribly long after the third full set of vaccines my boy foundered and was diagnosed with cushings post death. I read later that there seems to be a case for vaccine sensitivity and over vaccination as related to cushings horses. I remember the vet and her associate having a very heated argument about the number of vaccinations that were done on one old pony. I will regret many things for many years as to believing a vet as to how much vaccination and how much bute a pony needs. I am less inclined to believe everything I am told by a person just because they are a vet. I also heard that 80 % of ponies will develop cushings at some time in their lives and that there could be a case concerning vaccination of ponies with the same dosage as say a 2000 lb draft horse would get "once size fits all mentality"..

just giving some interesting reading information ... not intending to cause debate on forum. cheers.

Hope this helps.

PS, did you have a positive blood test result of cushings? Age of horse?

My current mini is on quiescence or remission for obesity. He does not have cushings. (yet) The chasteberry I tried was in dry leaf and berry form. Looked like weeds and I ground it. I see now that you can get it in liquid form like a tea and other forms. Maybe these processed forms would work better than the chasteberry I got from the health food source.

 

[chandab]

Chastetree berry doesn't treat Cushing's, it just helps the symptoms (helps to shed mostly). It takes the pergolide to actually affect the pituitary and control the hormone excess. Mine didn't really like the chastetree, and I can tell the pergolide helps, especially in the fall.

 

[madmax]

Shorthorse, sorry about your horse, thanks for your experience. It is helpful to hear about another older horse's story even tho it did not turn out well. Chandab, my mare is 30 years old, always was the one with the exceptional shiny coat that shed out beautifully. I have had her since she was 4 mos old, an exceptional producer and she is dear to me. Now the dense curly hair that does not shed and muscle wasting on the back. Shows no sign of founder. She also has skin issues that are being treated.

She has dental issues, missing teeth, fed wetdown heavily, safe low-starch feed, wetdown hay pellets and no molasses beet pulp. Supplements of omega 3 additives. Vet has no experience with minis on pergolide - I am cautious about it because of my friend who used it with disasterous result and mini stopped eating and died.

I would like to know both positive and negative results and the dosage of the liquid Chasteberry and the dosage of the pergolide. Also, anyone used Chasteberry only w/o pergolide and if it helped with the suggested diet.

Thanks to those who replied.

 

[chandab]

Dosage of pergolide is to effect, some need very little and some need more. Both of mine are on only .5mg (.5mg compounded for one, 1/2 tablet of prascend for the other). .5mg wasn't enough during the fall rise to keep Jasper comfortable, so I had to increase him to .75mg from about Aug to end of December/early Jan (he's back on .5mg now, and doing fine). the mare was fine on 1/2 tablet of Prascend (1 tablet is 1 mg). Jasper was diagnosed due to skin issues and chronic abscesses that wouldn't go away, they cleared up after starting pergolide (took two weeks to a month to clear up all his issues once he was on full-dose pergolide).

They call it the "pergolide veil", that don't want to eat with a bit of lethargy; it comes from putting them on to the pergolide too quickly. To help keep them eating, you need to titrate them onto it in small doses; so like 1/4 dose for 2-3 days, the 1/4 dose 2x daily for 2-3 days, then increase one to 1/2 dose for a couple days, then the other for a couple days, then you should be able to give whole dose 1x daily. Because I'm giving it to minis, and they only get .5mg daily, I just did half dose for several days, then half dose 2x daily for several days, then onto full-dose 1x daily and they seemed to do fine. If you decide to try it and your horse goes off feed, back off the pergolide dose a bit til he's eating well again, or you can try adding adaptogenic herbs to help with the transition (easiest is to try the commercial formula APF from Auburn Labs). I didn't need the APF, so didn't order it, and don't know how its dosed.

The chaste tree might help with curly coat and shedding, but I don't know if it would help with the skin issues and muscle wasting.

 

[bevann]

Never heard of Chasetree berry.Where do you find it?Have an older mare who does not shed out-her dam had Cushings and she probably does also.My experience with testing has been that it does not always show Cushings-only necropsy is definite

 

[chandab]

Many of the places that sell herbs on-line have chastetree berry powder or whole. I can't remember the name, but there is or was a liquid product for horses.

 

[lucky seven]

The mare that was borderline cushings was on pergolide but after awhile she refused to take her meds no matter how I disguised it. I took her off and put her on a weight control grain, she then foundered to a point where she had to be put down. My little boy has lost weight but still has a thick neck, his tests were negative for chushings but with his foundering I am concerned. My local feed store is having a laminitis expert in the store to answer questions so I plan to be there. This topic is very interesting to me. Thanks for all of your input.

 

[madmax]

Do a search for Evitex, it does come in tablets and in liquid.

 

[chandab]

My little boy has lost weight but still has a thick neck, his tests were negative for chushings but with his foundering I am concerned. My local feed store is having a laminitis expert in the store to answer questions so I plan to be there. This topic is very interesting to me. Thanks for all of your input.

Ponies are the poster child for IR (insulin resistance), similar to Type II diabetes in people; the treatment is a low sugar and low starch, balanced diet. [Also called EMS, equine metabolic syndrome.]

 

[lucky seven]

Ponies are the poster child for IR (insulin resistance), similar to Type II diabetes in people; the treatment is a low sugar and low starch, balanced diet. [Also called EMS, equine metabolic syndrome.]

All my vet said about feeding him was to take away his purina pony grain and just feed hay to him. To get his weight under control he said to limit him to 7 pounds a day. This I do by dividing in thirds, I have a scale that I use to weigh it. When my mare foundered I was given a copy of all tests they received from Cornell University, but not this time. All I received was a phone call about Seven's condition.

 

[chandab]

What does he currently weigh? What should he weigh, if you know (knowing his height and build will help figure it out)? What kind of hay is he getting?

I can't remember now if you said he's cresty or not (post is on other page); if he is, something like Remission or Quiessence might help with the crestiness.

 

[AnnaC]

If you are only feeding him 7lbs of hay per day (and I agree with Chanda above - what does he weigh etc etc?) then dont forget that he will need ad lib access to a vitamin and mineral additive or some sort.

Sorry I cant help the original poster with her question as not yet had a mini or horse suffering with Cushings, but am reading the answers/advice with interest.

 

[shorthorsemom]

quiescence and remission work beautifully for cresty neck and those yucky fat pads. I don't feed the mini feed, but feed enrich 32... quiescence and fine grass hay. Really helps keep the weight off. We will watch my boy for cushings signs when he gets older, but the old pony I had that tested positive for cushings did not show any outward signs before the founder. I don't do long periods of grazing because even with decent exercise my boy would get huge.

 

[lucky seven]

When my vet was here, he did a sight estimate as he said tapes and other means aren't accurate, with his winter coat it's hard to guess/estimate where he is now. When he drew blood he had to try both sides of his neck to find a vein because of his cresty neck. This winter has been rough so his exercise has been limited. My farrier told me that his front right rotated to a point that if I push him too hard he could break down so any plans I had to train him to drive are over. The expert on laminitis is Esco Buff, PhD, APF, CF He is a farrier who is a recognized leader in the field of Limb Length Disparity and Laminitis/founder farrier treatment. He will be at my feed store on the 22nd so I'm very eager to hear what he says. At this point I'm very concerned about future cushings for him as well. He has a salt block that he plays with, lol, so not sure how much he licks it. I plan on asking about remission and anyother supplement or feed that he can safely have.

 

[shorthorsemom]

start either remission or quiescence right away. Hay only will make a big bubble belly and a slack topline on a lot of minis. I feed enrich 32 and quiescence or remission and fine grass hay in small volumes frequently during the day. No grazing for my one boy. He is IR and not cushings, but I don't usually agree with the hay only scenario. These guys need a bit of protein supplement fed too.

Good luck.

laminitis and founder are a bummer.

I have a pea gravel loafing area that helps support the sole of the foot for my guys for night time loafing. I use rubber mats in feeding areas as a caution.

somebody can probably post the weight tape measurements for minis for you. I use a sewing tape at the heart girth and do the calculation on a chart I was given by somebody to figure out the weight. Even if you just use the tape to compare inches at heart girth to see if you are getting results from feeding changes that is a good thing. In winter I just pull tape tighter to try to get reasonable measure under all that hair. My boy in winter hair looks like a blimp and he makes folks think he is morbidly obese, but when he sheds it is apparent he is mostly all fur and he is not cresty at all using the remission or quiescence. I switched up recently to quiescence because he eats it better as it is in pelleted form. The remission is cheaper but is a powder dust that I kept finding in the bottom of the feed tub so technically although pricier the quiescence is easier to be sure he is getting all the supplement. It doesn't take more than a month for my boy to put on fat pads again if I stop the supplement so I am sure it is working.