Colour Experts

[chandab]

I was going to stay out of this, but there needs to be some clarification... And, a great website for learning colors is: http://www.equinecolor.com/

There are two base colors; red (ee) and black (Ee or EE), black is dominant to red.

Two red-based horses can never produce a black-based foal (if you get a red foal, then someone didn't have the parents right or one was actually a silver bay misidentified as a sorrel, this misidentification happens often in minis).

Bay is created by agouti acting on black-base (agouti restricts black to the points; mane/tail and legs).

Often times buckskins and duns are misidentified; they are created by two different dilution genes (cream and dun), but often have similar color. And, to add to the confusion, both can be inherited so one horse has both dilution, which really changes the color.

All modifiers are independent of each other, so one horse can have any combination of color dilutions and modifiers, including all of them.

 

[Carolyn R]

I stand corrected, but two black horses (one with cream)can produce a palomino.

Carolyn

 

[uwharrie]

I am not sure I follow this statement. wouldn't it be you would only get red from two red parents?

There are two base colors; red (ee) and black (Ee or EE), black is dominant to red.Two red-based horses can never produce a black-based foal (if you get a red foal, then someone didn't have the parents right or one was actually a silver bay misidentified as a sorrel, this misidentification happens often in minis).

 

[uwharrie]

this would be if one carried red and the other creme?

I stand corrected, but two black horses (one with cream)can produce a palomino.Carolyn

 

[Carolyn R]

oops double

 

[Carolyn R]

both black horses could carry red and hide it, the foalwould have to get a red gene from each,(if it got one red gene and one black gene, black would be the color that shows through again on the foal) then as a modifier one or both could also carry a cream gene (but as we know, on a black horse, there is very little color difference if they carry one cream gene.)A palomino would only have one cream gene.

Carolyn

 

[rabbitsfizz]

This has made interesting reading so far!!

Sabino does not carry blue eyes, I know of NO lines that are purely Sabino that have blue eyes, (actually, I know of no lines that are purely Sabino, come to think of it!!).

Dun is definitely a dilute, it is called a dilute, therefore it is a dilute!

By definition, basically.

As a number of people have now pointed out there are only two base colours, Red and Black.

Everything else is a modifier, a dilute or a pattern on these base colours, also already stated by a number of people.

If a horse has blue eyes it has Splash or Frame, whether or not it exhibits any other characteristics.

A horse having all the Sabino characteristics and blue eyes is a horse that has Sabino and Splash or Frame, not a Sabino with blue eyes

 

[uwharrie]

so if I were to have Romeo color tested what test should I run>

he does not have blue eyes but does have a fleck of blue in one eye and has produced blue eyed pintos ( I know out of pinto mares not sure about solid mares)

 

[Carolyn R]

I would say the MOST important thing to test him for is LWO+, just to be safe. As I had said before, he has full siblings with blue eyes and I know he has, on occasion, thrown babies with blue eyes (may have come from the mare, but being that they run on his side too, check him for LWO+) If he is negative, you can safely breed him to any mare, wether they are LWO+ or not. IMO, all else is nice to know but does not even come close to the importance of avoiding the breeding of two LWO+ horses.

Carolyn

 

[Lisa]

This is definitely getting interesting!

I stand corrected, but two black horses (one with cream)can produce a palomino.Carolyn

Yes, absolutely! Because black is the dominant gene, it can hide red.

I am not sure I follow this statement. wouldn't it be you would only get red from two red parents?

There are two base colors; red (ee) and black (Ee or EE), black is dominant to red.Two red-based horses can never produce a black-based foal (if you get a red foal, then someone didn't have the parents right or one was actually a silver bay misidentified as a sorrel, this misidentification happens often in minis).

Yes, two red parents can only produce chestnut. BUT! The reason it gets interesting, and what chandab was explaining is that because silver bay can look very, very similar to a chestnut, it is often misidentified as a red horse. A silver bay horse would be black based + agouti + silver. If this silver bay horse is heterozygous for black it would be able to produce a chestnut, but it would of course be able to produce a black. So, if you were to have a silver bay mare that you think is chestnut and you breed it to a chestnut stallion, but you get a solid bay with no silver. You would know that your mare is actually a silver bay. Also, chestnut is able to hide the silver gene, since silver dilutes only the black parts of a horse.

this would be if one carried red and the other creme?

I stand corrected, but two black horses (one with cream)can produce a palomino.Carolyn

As I said above, a black based horse can carry and hide red. So, for example, if you were to breed a black horse to a smokey black horse, you can produce a black, smokey black or chestnut. BUT - if one of those horses are homozygous for black, you would only be able to produce a black or smokey black foal.

This has made interesting reading so far!!Sabino does not carry blue eyes, I know of NO lines that are purely Sabino that have blue eyes, (actually, I know of no lines that are purely Sabino, come to think of it!!).

Dun is definitely a dilute, it is called a dilute, therefore it is a dilute!

By definition, basically.

As a number of people have now pointed out there are only two base colours, Red and Black.

Everything else is a modifier, a dilute or a pattern on these base colours, also already stated by a number of people.

If a horse has blue eyes it has Splash or Frame, whether or not it exhibits any other characteristics.

A horse having all the Sabino characteristics and blue eyes is a horse that has Sabino and Splash or Frame, not a Sabino with blue eyes

Is it possible rabbitsfizz to have a horse carry splash or frame but NEVER have a foal (as so far I haven't seen any horses in this line that exhibit it) that shows that gene in anything but blue eyes?

so if I were to have Romeo color tested what test should I run>he does not have blue eyes but does have a fleck of blue in one eye and has produced blue eyed pintos ( I know out of pinto mares not sure about solid mares)

I would test him for LWO+ as Carolyn says, but perhaps if you are interested, test him also for dun, splash and sabino.

 

[Carolyn R]

Funny you should say that Lisa. I ended up with a palomino looking filly from the mare listed earlier in this thread (Romeo's full sister). The stud was my palomino. After about a month or two she looked sorrel/red dun, then after her hair started growing out this summer she seemed to have pale charcoal shading on her legs, but the giveaway that leads me to believe/and register her as a silver bay is the entire core of her tail is black, the rest is a misty hazy flaxen. I believe her legs will appear darker by next summer.

\Carolyn

 

[Lisa]

Yep! Sometimes you REALLY have to look closely to see the darker points that tell you its a silver rather than a red based!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Is it possible rabbitsfizz to have a horse carry splash or frame but NEVER have a foal (as so far I haven't seen any horses in this line that exhibit it) that shows that gene in anything but blue eyes?
Yes, perfectly possible, but you have to be careful about this, as with patterned horses it is virtually impossible to say what is caused by what. If the animals are solid, for example a Bay with blue eyes, it is a little easier to say there are no visible Splash characteristics other than blue eyes. And then, of course, in the absence of leg white, blue eyes could be caused by Frame. What they will not be caused by is Sabino.

I would test him for LWO+ as Carolyn says, but perhaps if you are interested, test him also for dun, splash and sabino.

There is virtually no point in testing for Sabino, there is only a test for Sab1 at present and it is pretty meaningless, it neither proves the existence of Sabino (other than Sab1) nor does it prove its absence

I would never register a foal as Silver anything, unless it was obviously so and had a Silver parent, unless I had had it tested. It saves embarrassment when it turns out to be a Chestnut after all

FWIW I am not convinced your foal is Silver Bay, I would have tested it.