Colour Experts

[countrycharm]

Was wondering if someone could please give me a simple and easily understandible explanation about this colour, as at out last mini horse meeting a fellow competitor asked

"why do we have chestnut in the solid colour class when it is the biggest dilute out there next to perlino"

I disagree with this comment, so im wondering if someone could please write a few explinations so i can take explain to this person why we have chestnut in the solid colour class.

Hmm unless im wrong and it is a dilute!!!!!!

thanks

 

[Riverdance]

First of all, a solid chestnut is a solid color horse. A perlino or cremello is also a solid color horse. They are not pintos or Apps.

Second, a chestnut IS NOT A DILUTE. Obviously the person asking you the question has no idea what he is talking about. To be a dilute you have to carry the creme gene. If a horse has the creme gene it is either a palomino, buckskin or smokey black.

A perlino, cremello or smokey creme are double dilutes meaning they carry TWO creme genes.

A chestnut is red. A cremello and perlino and smokey creme are white. All of the double dilutes have blue eyes. The cremello is the whitest of them, the perlino usually has a more reddish mane and tail and the smokey black has a slight grayish ting to it and can often be mistaken for a perlino.

A palomino is a pale yellow, a buckskin is tan with a black mane and tail and a smokey black can be very black or more often an off black, sometimes looking more like a liver chestnut.

To give you an even better idea of how the color chart goes. The red gene gives you a chestnut, if there is a creme gene with the chestnut/red color then you have a palomino, if you have two creme genes, then you have a cremello. All come down from the red gene.

Now the bay gene, (really a modified black gene). No creme gene means you have a bay, one creme gene means you have a buckskin, two creme genes means you have a perlino.

The black gene. No creme gene you have a black. One creme gene you have a smokey black, two creme genes you have a smokey creme.

The double dilutes will ALWAYS give you a dilute foal, ie: Palomino, Buckskin or Smokey black.

A single dilut horse may give you a dilute or a chestnut, bay or black.

My avatar right now is an example of a cremello.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Horses come in 2 base colours, red (chestnut/sorrel) and black. Every other colour is a result of modifying genes working on red or black. That said as I understand it the 'solid colour' class is for horses of any colour (including dilutes) who do not carry a pinto or appaloosa pattern.

 

[countrycharm]

thankyou ill print that of and take it along with me

im not sure what they are refering to????.

we have 3 solid colour classes here in NZ

solid which is bay, black, chestnut etc,

then silver which is silver bay, silver dapple etc

then dilute, duns, buckskins etc

then our pinto and appy classes

this person was wanting the solid chestnut to go into the dilute class with the duns and buckskins.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I thought Riverdance's reply was excellently written except for two points (one of which was probably a typo).

To be a dilute you have to carry the creme gene.

I believe dun and silver are dilution genes as well, technically. Would roan be a dilution gene too? Gray, pinto and appy genes are all modifiers, not dilution, but there's no question about dun and silver as far as I know.

A cremello and perlino and smokey black are white. The cremello is the whitest of them, the perlino usually has a more reddish mane and tail and the smokey black has a slight grayish tinge to it and can often be mistaken for a perlino. ... and a smokey black can be very black or more often an off black, sometimes looking more like a liver chestnut.

Which one is it??

My understanding is that smokey blacks look pretty much like diluted black, not any shade of white.

As far as chestnut itself, yes, red is one of the most basic solid colors there is.

The red gene is recessive so if it's being expressed, you know the horse has no other modifiers or color genes present. That means a chestnut bred to a chestnut will ALWAYS produce chestnut because they have nothing else they could pass on. They can be pinto, they can be appy, but the basic color will be red if both parents are. Any apparent exceptions are from parents that only looked chestnut, like a light silver bay or very dark palomino or other odd shade.

Besides- solid color classes (as everyone else has said) are about horses that don't have pinto or appy patterns, not about whether or not the horse has dilution genes. I think a book on equine color genetics would make an excellent Christmas gift for this individual.

Leia, writing from a barn full of red horses.

 

[countrycharm]

Besides- solid color classes (as everyone else has said) are about horses that don't have pinto or appy patterns, not about whether or not the horse has dilution genes!

Leia

Hehe except here in NZ where solid colour class doesnt mean solid colour

lol but thankyou so much this is what i was after i can take this along now and hopefully will get a better response!!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hehe except here in NZ where solid colour class doesnt mean solid colour

Oh it means solid color...you just break it down further into three sub-classes!

Leia

 

[countrycharm]

Hehe except here in NZ where solid colour class doesnt mean solid colour

Oh it means solid color...you just break it down further into three sub-classes!

Leia

oh yep sorry thats what i ment

hehe

 

[Lisa]

I think that was a typo. Smokey Black is a single creme dilution that can look identical to Black with no dilution, though it can also look slightly "faded". Smokey Creme is Black with two creme dilution genes and it looks whitish.

Yes, Dun and Silver are both dilutions, Champagne is another. Roan is a modifier, not a dilution. The basic definition of a dilution gene, to my knowledge, is a gene which dilutes the original colour (either coat or mane and tail or both). A modifier does not change the main coat colour, it simply "adds" to it.

 

[coopermini]

This web site does a good job of describing all colors and should be in terms easy enough for all to understand.

http://www.equinecolor.com/color.html

Mark

 

[Riverdance]

I believe dun and silver are dilution genes as well, technically

Silver and dun are not dilute in the same way as they do not carry the dilute creme gene. Unless you have a dun buckskin, dun palomino or dun smokey black. A red dun for instance can not produce a palomino, buckskin or smokey black unless bred to a dilute carrying the dilute gene. The dun gene will just lighten the coat of a horse. ie: dun reds have the dark red stripe, but their bodys will be a lighter shade of red. The silver gene is similar. A silver bay, can look like a chestnut because the black points are silvered out, and a silver chestnut can be mistaken for a palomino becuse it will have a white mane and tail, but its body color is more red then yellow.

A cremello and perlino and smokey black are white. The cremello is the whitest of them, the perlino usually has a more reddish mane and tail and the smokey black has a slight grayish tinge to it and can often be mistaken for a perlino.
... and a smokey black can be very black or more often an off black, sometimes looking more like a liver chestnut

 


Yes ,a typo error. Sorry, I ment to say that a double dilute black is a smokey creme. Still white, but with a grayish tinge to the mane and tail.

 

[Lisa]

I believe dun and silver are dilution genes as well, technically

Silver and dun are not dilute in the same way as they do not carry the dilute gene. Unless you have a dun buckskin, palomino or smokey black. A red dun for insstance can not produce a palomino, buckskin or smokey black unless bred to a dilute carrying the dilute gene. The dun gene will just lighten the coat of a horse. Ie: dun reds have the dark red stripe,, but their bodys will be a lighter red color. The silver gene is similar. A silver bay, can look like a chestnut because the black points are silvered out.

There are several different types of dilution genes. Creme is the main one people generally think about when you say "dilute" but it is not the only one. The following is quoted from equinecolor.com

"Palomino, Dun, Silver Dapple and Grullo are just a few of the colors that are created when a base color and a dilution gene are combined. The diluting genes include: Champagne, Cream, Dun and Silver."

 

[Riverdance]

I believe dun and silver are dilution genes as well, technically

Silver and dun are not dilute in the same way as they do not carry the dilute gene. Unless you have a dun buckskin, palomino or smokey black. A red dun for insstance can not produce a palomino, buckskin or smokey black unless bred to a dilute carrying the dilute gene. The dun gene will just lighten the coat of a horse. Ie: dun reds have the dark red stripe,, but their bodys will be a lighter red color. The silver gene is similar. A silver bay, can look like a chestnut because the black points are silvered out.

There are several different types of dilution genes. Creme is the main one people generally think about when you say "dilute" but it is not the only one. The following is quoted from equinecolor.com

"Palomino, Dun, Silver Dapple and Grullo are just a few of the colors that are created when a base color and a dilution gene are combined. The diluting genes include: Champagne, Cream, Dun and Silver."

Yes, but a dun can not produce a palomino, buckskin or a smokey black without the creme gene. A dun does not carry the creme gene, unless it is palomino dun, or a buckskin dun, or a smokey black dun. Again, a dun will dilute the color of a bay, chestnut, or black, but the horse is still a bay or a chestnut or black, just a lighter shade with the dorsal stripe.

 

[Lisa]

Of course a dun would need a creme gene to produce a dun with creme, but it is still considered a dilute gene. I'm not trying to disagree with you on what causes palomino, buckskin or smokey black. It's just a fact that dun IS a dilute gene, just as silver and champagne are.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but a dun would not still be considered a chestnut, bay or black if it carries a dun gene, it would be considered a red dun, bay dun or grulla. That would be like saying a horse who carries creme is still a chestnut, bay or black, just a lighter shade. There are also many other factors in the look of a dun, other than the dorsal stripe - shoulder stripe, zebra stripes and cobwebbing.

 

[Riverdance]

Of course a dun would need a creme gene to produce a dun with creme, but it is still considered a dilute gene. I'm not trying to disagree with you on what causes palomino, buckskin or smokey black. It's just a fact that dun IS a dilute gene, just as silver and champagne are.
I'm sorry to disagree with you, but a dun would not still be considered a chestnut, bay or black if it carries a dun gene, it would be considered a red dun, bay dun or grulla. That would be like saying a horse who carries creme is still a chestnut, bay or black, just a lighter shade. There are also many other factors in the look of a dun, other than the dorsal stripe - shoulder stripe, zebra stripes and cobwebbing.

Lisa,

I am not disagreeing with you either, they are considered dilutes and I did mention that a checnut with a dorsal stipe was a red dun. I did also mention that their body colors are lighter then their dorsal stripe. But still a red dun is not a palomino, nor can it produce a palomino.

I was saying all this because too many people on this board do not understand the difference in the genes. Some of them would think that if they owned or bought a dun, they could then breed palominos or buckskins because they were considered dilutes.

 

[Lisa]

Oh, I see. I'm sorry to have misunderstood your intentions

 

[Miniv]

Scrolling through this thread is actually making me giggle!

The two BASIC solid colors to a horse are black and red (chestnut or sorrel). Everything else are either modifiers or dilutions.

How's that?

The person who says that the chestnut (or sorrel) horse is not a solid color needs some education in horse color!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Yes, Dun and Silver are both dilutions, Champagne is another. Roan is a modifier, not a dilution. The basic definition of a dilution gene, to my knowledge, is a gene which dilutes the original colour (either coat or mane and tail or both). A modifier does not change the main coat colour, it simply "adds" to it.

Champagne, that was it!! I knew I was missing one of the dilutes! Great definitions by the way, I think you gave a very simple and accurate description of the difference between "dilute" and "modifier."

Silver and dun are not dilute in the same way as they do not carry the dilute creme gene...
...But still a red dun is not a palomino, nor can it produce a palomino....

...I was saying all this because too many people on this board do not understand the difference in the genes. Some of them would think that if they owned or bought a dun, they could then breed palominos or buckskins because they were considered dilutes.

Ah, now I get where you're coming from.

I think Lisa's objection was because it sounded as if you were using the term "dilute" to exclusively mean a horse carrying the cream gene (see the first line in the above quote) and that isn't correct usage either. So to be very clear for everyone reading: A horse is a "dilute color" if they carry the Champagne, Silver, Dun, or Cream genes. WHAT dilution they are depends on what gene they carry. One dilution cannot magically produce a horse of another dilute color, such as a silver producing a palomino (cream gene). The parent must have the gene to pass it on and the gene combines with the base color such as red or black to produce the final color we see.

Clear as mud, right?

And a chestnut is STILL not a dilute! *LOL* Neither is a sorrel, or a red, or a flaxen chestnut, or a liver chestnut, or any other form of genetically red horse.

Leia

 

[uwharrie]

so what further modifiers produce a color like Smutty buckskin?

here is my boy Romeo unclipped in summer coat. If he were a dog I would call him seal ( not a dilute)

he has hazel eyes flecked with blue , a dorsal stripe and has a full brother who is palomino. I have seen photos of his sire and dam and they both look like a rich latte

 

[Carolyn R]

I have always wondered if Romeo carried the dun gene, here is his full sister (buckskin, maybe dunskin+ blue eyes) then at the bottom is his daughter, a sooty buckskin, irregular face white and BLACK eyes. His full sister may look baydun, but I have pics of her clipped out as a yearling and she looks like a buckskin (that is what is on her papers)

Curious to see what others say about his coloring. If he is a true buckskin (and not a grullo)I think he would carry a cream gene, agouti, sooty, black and maybe red (he may very well carry dun also) Has he ever has a palomino or sorrel foal? As far as I can recall, based on what I know about him, I think he has only had black or buckskin foals, and some with blue eyes, which could come from the dams side, but being his full sister above has blue eyes and he and his sister and daughter have the facial white as he also does, he may carry splash and/or LWO+, I may be wrong.

Carolyn