Colour Experts

[Lisa]

I'll take a stab at these horses

Do you have photos of Romeo's sire and dam? Looking at him in this picture, I would say he was either a seal brown or a very dark bay. I went to your website, however, and some of his other photos show the buckskin. The modifier gene, sooty, is what causes the dark colouring. It can be very minimal, causing countershading or very extensive, making the horse look extremely dark (almost a different colour like on Romeo). Countershading is a line down the back that is often mistaken for a dorsal stripe that is caused by dun. Unless I can see a picture of the parents, there's no way to tell for sure, but I would say that he likely does not have dun gene. Carolyn, you are right. If he is what I think he is he would carry black, agouti, cream, sooty. Possibly red, as well, but if he has not thrown any chestnuts, he is likely homozygous black.

That goes for his sister, too. The line down her back looks like a dorsal stripe, but I don't see anything else on her that suggests dun (cobwebbing, shoulder stripes, zebra stripes). So, unless I see her parents and they look dun, I'm going to go with countershading

His daughter looks like a classic smutty buckskin to me!

As for the blue eyes...I would say that this line has a gene for sabino, but that it is generally minimally expressed. They could have splash, but I see absolutely no evidence of it.

 

[Carolyn R]

I thought blue eyes were specific to splash and overo (except in the case of double dilute, which of course is something completely different). The sire is Hunt House Farms Rogues Native, His sire is Glenns Southern Rouge, His dam is Spring Valleys Native Love

The dam is Summer Winds Dreams Tuff Stuff, By FWF Dream Merchant and out of Brewers Glamor Girl.

Here is an archived link to the previous owners page on Romeo's Pedigree, which is also my mares pedigree too, and pics of the sire and dam at the bottom of the page

http://www.brookehollow.com/html/stallions.html

Carolyn

 

[CheyAut]

Blue eyes are caused by frame or splash, not sabino.

 

[Lisa]

I'm confused about something...

On his pedigree it lists Hunt House Farms Rogues Native, Glenns Southern Rouge x Spring Valleys Native Love. On his page it lists Cadle Creeks Rogues Native, a buckskin looking horse. I searched Cadle Creeks Rogues Native and found a page that lists Cadle Creeks Rogues Native Gold, a sooty palomino who is Glenns Southern Rouge x Spring Valleys Native Love. Who is his sire?

 

[uwharrie]

Hunt House Farm's Rouge Native is his sire ( the previous owner has a mistake in the names on her site) but the horse pictured are his sire and dam ( per the breeder)

I'm confused about something...
On his pedigree it lists Hunt House Farms Rogues Native, Glenns Southern Rouge x Spring Valleys Native Love. On his page it lists Cadle Creeks Rogues Native, a buckskin looking horse. I searched Cadle Creeks Rogues Native and found a page that lists Cadle Creeks Rogues Native Gold, a sooty palomino who is Glenns Southern Rouge x Spring Valleys Native Love. Who is his sire?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hehe, this is getting fascinating!

If he is a true buckskin (and not a grullo)

I think you're safe on that one. Grullo/grulla is black-based so he would not have that lovely brown shading along his underline.

Whatever color he is, it's GORGEOUS!!! That's my favorite shade and markings in big horses, I would love to have one in mini.

Leia

 

[minimomNC]

This sire of Lynne's horse is Hunt House Farms Rogues Native, a smokey black (his sire is palomino) Native Gold is a full brother to Lynne's horse as well.

When Cadle Creek registered Hunt House Farms Rogues Native into AMHR, they used their Farm prefix, so Hunt House Farms Rogues Native and Cadle Creeks Rogues Native are the same horse.

 

[Lisa]

Thanks for the clarification.

I stick with my original opinion that he is a sooty buckskin

For the blue eyes - yes, it is generally accepted that Splash or Frame cause blue eyes, BUT it is possible to have blue eyes with Sabino. It is thought that while it isn't NECESSARY and Sabino doesn't actually cause the blue eyes, certain lines of horses may pass a gene for blue eyes on along with the Sabino. None of these horses exhibit anything even remotely close to Splash or Frame, therefore it's a logical conclusion that if anything, it's likely Sabino.

Quoted from Equine Color

One Sabino characteristic is a white marking on the face which can vary from a few white hairs to a large blaze. Anoter very common characteristic of Sabino is white on the lower lip and/or chin, ranging from small to large. Some very minimal Sabinos may not have this characteristic white spotting but will have other traits of the pattern. Even though facial white is common, even to the point of causing a "bald" or "apron" marking at times, blue eyes not considered a trait of the pattern and if it does occur in conjunction with Sabino it is usually a trait of a certain line of horses and these horses usually only have one blue eye, not two. (The Khemosabi line in Arabians is very prevalent with Sabino, some of which have blue eyes), or it is being caused by another gene.

 

[uwharrie]

thanks! I learn something new every day. Now I need to go back and look at Romeo's papers to see exactly what is on them ( I assumed they were both with Hunt House as the prefix)

I assumed that Rogue Native was buckskin did not even think about Smokey black.

This sire of Lynne's horse is Hunt House Farms Rogues Native, a smokey black (his sire is palomino) Native Gold is a full brother to Lynne's horse as well.

When Cadle Creek registered Hunt House Farms Rogues Native into AMHR, they used their Farm prefix, so Hunt House Farms Rogues Native and Cadle Creeks Rogues Native are the same horse.

 

[Lisa]

I assumed buckskin as well, but an odd shade. Smokey Black makes more sense, but some of the shades that minis come in for colours are very odd indeed LOL!

I love discussing colour genetics. It's one of the most interesting part of owning minis!

 

[Carolyn R]

His R paperswill be listed as Cadle Creek, His A papers will be listed as Hunt House Farm.

Carolyn

 

[uwharrie]

I am still waiting on the A papers back from AMHA. Previous owner had never taken him Perm. I was afraid it was too late to do so. Of course AMHA was willing to do so for a fee ( and a hefty one at that) I lucked out. Lesson learned, get papers before you pay in full!

His R paperswill be listed as Cadle Creek, His A papers will be listed as Hunt House Farm.

Carolyn

 

[uwharrie]

Just went back and checked the papers on his R papers it lists Hunt House Farm Rogues Native

on his Temp A papers ( I made a photo copy before I sent them in) it also list him as Hunt House Farm Rogues Native.

Now I am really confused

And sorry I did not mean to hijack this thread!

This sire of Lynne's horse is Hunt House Farms Rogues Native, a smokey black (his sire is palomino) Native Gold is a full brother to Lynne's horse as well.

When Cadle Creek registered Hunt House Farms Rogues Native into AMHR, they used their Farm prefix, so Hunt House Farms Rogues Native and Cadle Creeks Rogues Native are the same horse.

 

[minimomNC]

Because Romeo was hardshipped into AMHR off of his AMHA papers, then yes his sire is listed at Hunt House Farms Rogues Native, But Rogues Native himself is registered in AMHR with the Cadle Creek prefix. The reason Romeo was hardshipped is because his dam isn't AMHR registered.

If you also look at Romeo's AMHR papers, he is listed as brown. Not buckskin like his AMHA papers. As for Rogues Native, he is without a doubt smokey black, his color is black, I have seen him several times over the years but I also know he has sired perlino's because I have also seen them as well.

 

[uwharrie]

Ah! now it is making sense. (though I still cant understand why someone would change a name with a registry)

I never realised Romeo was hardshipped into R. that also explains why his R papers do not show a full pedigree

Because Romeo was hardshipped into AMHR off of his AMHA papers, then yes his sire is listed at Hunt House Farms Rogues Native, But Rogues Native himself is registered in AMHR with the Cadle Creek prefix. The reason Romeo was hardshipped is because his dam isn't AMHR registered.
If you also look at Romeo's AMHR papers, he is listed as brown. Not buckskin like his AMHA papers. As for Rogues Native, he is without a doubt smokey black, his color is black, I have seen him several times over the years but I also know he has sired perlino's because I have also seen them as well.

 

[uwharrie]

OK so back to the topic of color ( sorry I sort of hijacked it for a bit)

is it a modifier that makes the "smutty" color

from three known full siblings there seems to be a

buckskin

smutty buckskin

palamino

My understanding of horse color genetics ( limited understanding at best)

buckskin is a dilute of bay

palamino a dilute of red

give one parent is smokey black and the other parent appears buckskin ( could it be she is another color)

how is it possible to get these three different "colors"

 

[minimomNC]

Wow, this color thing does get interesting.

There are six full siblings including Romeo who looks to be smutty buckskin. Of the six there are 4 registered as buckskin which could make the mare a bay or black, but she also had a palomino, without a doubt palomino, I have seen him several times as he has grown up, so there could be a red base in there as well. But to make things even more fun, the sixth foal is Cremello. So this mare has to also carry the dulute gene as well. She is registered as a dun. Her last foal sired by a different stallion and a bay at that, is a buckskin. This mare is sired by a chestnut and out of a dun pinto mare (not sure about why this mare is a dun, her sire is a chestnut, dam is listed palomino)

The sire on the other hand we know is smokey black, sired by a palomino (sired by a chestnut out of a palomino) and out of a chestnut mare who according to the studbook was sired by a chestnut and out of a chestnut. So here you have a smokey black stallion with what looks like an entire red based pedigree. Where does the black come from as well as all the buckskins?

 

[Carolyn R]

In regards to to unwarrie, sooty is a modifier, and the palomino means one or both have a red gene as well as a black gene and neither passed on the agoiti to the palomino, so neither is homozygous for agouti or every foal would have dark point from this combination.

In regards to minimomNC

Okay, I'll try this, a red horse can have a black gene and a red gene, but the red shows, so that is where the black comes from. The the cream comes from the palominos. You can actually get a solid black foal from palominos and a palomino foal from two black parents (at least one would have to be smokey black).

So Romeo's dam (my mares dam also) is actually a buckskin Dun (Dunskin)?

I have seen the photo of her, but just guessed she was a sooty buckskin.

Carolyn

 

[Annabellarose]

To throw you another curve ball: What's on a horse's registration certificate is not always the correct color. I own a mare that is listed as gray, she is definitely not gray, no way, no how! I determined that my mare is smokey black.

Edited to add: I own a(nother) mare that is a black and white Tobiano Pinto. She is bred to a silver bay that is listed as a chestnut. If I hadn't found a picture of him online, wouldn't I have been surprised about what I ended up with?

 

[uwharrie]

Not sure if it goes the same as in dogs but with my breed ( Italian Greyhounds) they are often registered with an incorrect color. Many seals ( bascially a dark brown/black dog with lighter highlights) are registered as Sable ( red with brown tips) or chocolate ( a rare color that IS actually a dilute) Blues are often fawns and vise versa. It can make for some interesting projections on future pups colors if you do not actually know the ancestors.

Horse seem to be far more complecated as it appears it is not always obvious as to what the color actually is.

Does the registries allow you to change the color listed? ( they do not with the AKC)

To throw you another curve ball: What's on a horse's registration certificate is not always the correct color. I own a mare that is listed as gray, she is definitely not gray, no way, no how! I determined that my mare is smokey black.