Breeding a mare that is a minimal dwarf

[StarRidgeAcres]

[SIZE=12pt]UPDATE ON PAGE 4!!![/SIZE]

Really LONG story short: a lady about 60 miles from us called because she found my website while doing an internet search. She had two mini mares that she wanted to have bred for 2008. I explained that regardless of how nice her mares were my senior stallion was all booked up for outside mares for this year and he only has one spot left for 2008. This is all true so I wasn't lying to her. She inquired about other options and I told her (honestly) that I have 2 inexperienced stallions that may be available in the right circumstances. I asked for pictures of her mares and their registration info so I could look them up. Several days went by and no pictures. Then she called back and asked if she could come out to meet the stallions. Sure, why not? She pulls in the driveway in her van and she gets out and walks around to the side and opens the door. Two mares jump out of the van!! :new_shocked: I did NOT know she was bringing the mares with her!

So after much surprise and more talking to this woman I decide that she's not as mature as most adult women and that I probably need to be really clear with her. Also, the horses looked like %$*#&! :no: They both had huge bellies, hooves in terrible condition, their backbones visable, but their coats were gleaming.

One of the mares is average at best, the other is obviously a minimal dwarf. :no: The dwarf has two registered babies. :new_shocked: The other mare is a maiden.

I tried everything to explain that these mares, especially the little one, shouldn't be bred and that they'd make great pets, etc. I eventually agreed to keep them long enough for the vet to check them out and that we'd let the vet decide if the little one was breeding sound/worthy.

The vet came out, cultured the maiden and examined the dwarf. She wrote a letter to the owner stating there were some dwarf characteristics and that on top of her small size meant she shouldn't be bred. The owner wasn't convinced. She has now found another local breeder who has said they'll breed the little mare! :no:

I tried to appease the woman by agreeing to breed the maiden mare (if the culture came back clean) to one of my unproven stallions so she'd have the baby she wanted for next year. I tried explaining how expensive foals can be, how difficult the birthing process is, etc. but she wouldn't back down. She wants TWO babies! So now this other breeder is going to breed this dwarf for her! Do I call them and make sure they understand what they're getting into? Or do I let them be because they probably know and don't care?

I've still got both mares at my place and my husband is about to have a fit. He wants them both gone and doesn't agree with my breeding the one mare. I was hoping if she had one baby she'd just let the other mare be a pet.

I guess I just didn't handle this very well. I learned a lot, but there still is the issue that someone is going to breed this dwarf!

What do I do??? :ugh:

:

ETA: BTW, these mares look TONS better than when they arrived. I've got them on a decent diet, they're getting exercise and proper worming and farrier work.

 

[Marty]

Holy crap Parm......

Up until last year I had been quite the wus and would tread softly......

but I've changed.

I have no patience for someone keeping their horses in that condition

and on top of it, breeding dwarfs..........

personally, I'd want her and her horses off my property

and I would not lower my standards and allow her to breed to my stallion no how no way

and I would flat out tell her why and exactly what I thought of her

 

[nootka]

You have already done far more than most would. You have TRIED.

I am sorry for the little mares and I can wish that they won't suffer, but they belong to this woman and you need to disinvest yourself.

I would merely make a note of the other breeder, and avoid doing business with them, though I doubt you are going to talk them out of the $$ they will get from this woman. I suppose you can give them the benefit of the doubt, or perhaps you could just forward the vet papers from the dwarf mare to them seeing as how they are going to breed her to their stallion.

What a mess. Sad.

Liz M.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I would back out of breeding anything for her at all.

Because once my mouth opens I cannot stop, and anyway it is good to have a record, I would do this by e-mail or letter- stating quite clearly your reasons- the one is dwarf the other is substandard.

If the mare you bred fails to get in foal or has a second rate foal- guess whose fault it will be??

Remember you are dealing with someone who obviously has no standards- so, when your stallion throws a proper sized foal, and the dwarf mare, if she survives has a "tiny" foal, guess whose stallion will be useless??

These people always seem to have the BIGGEST mouths, too, so EVERYONE will hear about your useless stallion.

Now this will make no difference in proper horse circles as the difference will be obvious, but it will be annoying.

Why put yourself through all that??

Give her a link to CMHR- for her future use- as ten to one that is where the mares will end up.

UGH :ugh: :ugh:

 

[Jill]

Parmela --

You should feel good about helping get the mares in better shape and doing what you could do to educate this woman. I think you did all you can do

Some people will not accept reality, and I think I know someone who would for sure breed any of her stallions to a dwarf -- just pay her the money and she's gonna do whatever. There are, unfortunately, people like that all over the place. Also, I would bet you that this woman who owns the mares will have her own stallion in short order. And lord only knows what she'll pick out. She obviously had no interest in understanding what she had on her hands, only that they are capable of reproducing "something". I'm sorry because I know this has to be bothering you but I hope you know that you did everything a person could.

Jill

 

[xtrememiniluv]

Pam,

It is a shame when these kind of people just want to breed just for a baby. I wouldn't breed her mare. You said the mares came in bad condition, and I would not want a baby to go through that. The best thing you can do is try to educate them. Tell them about LilBeginnings, we all learn so much here. Also try to explain to them the dwarf characteristics and what happens if she does have a dwarf. I'm sure you've already tried to explain this. Also, is this woman married?? Sometimes it helps talking to the husband....especially if he isn't in to the horses. Sometimes a spouse has a better perspective on things. (IE...how much is it gonna cost me).

Good luck...I know sometimes uneducated horse people are the hardest to deal with. And unfortunately there are breeders out there who are only in it for the money and not to better the breed.

 

[lvponies]

You should be commended for taking care of those mares and attempting to educate their owner. Unfortunately, if people don't want to listen or learn, there is really nothing more that you can do.

 

[slv]

Parmela,

What a sweet lady you must be. That lady truly over stepped her bounds when those mares were unloaded at your farm and with that alone she made the statment that she may not be playing with a full deck. For you to accept them and try and help them (and her) speaks volumes about your kind personality.

However, some people CANNOT be educated no matter how hard we try. It is so sad but very true that these little horses end up in the hands of those people way too often.

There is a farm not far from me that I used to help out and try to guide them a bit. They decided that they wanted LITTLE horses and were not much into the big ones. Hence, they started buying and raising horses that ANYONE with any sense at all would recognize as dwarves. They even put photos of them on their web site on the MARES page Anyway, I don't even have the patience to talk to them anymore as nothing you say to them makes a difference. They are clearly ignorant as to what a dwarf is and have made it perfectly clear that they are going to do their own thing. Oh well! Anyway, this is part of the reason that prices are down on miniature horses right now. The sad truth is that some people breed anything that moves. :no:

I would send these horses back with the lady and wash my hands of her. No one has tried any harder than I have to educated people who simply "don't want to hear it"

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Thank you to everyone for your advice and supportive words. This has been a horrible experience. I can't imagine how I let myself get so far into this. :no: I hate the idea of letting these mares go back to this lady but I know I have to. She actually emailed me this morning and asked if the baby that comes out of the maiden is halfway decent would I consider letting her breed the mare to Corona next year??? This woman has NO clue!!!! I also found out the only reason she has these horses is that the area where she lives was changing its zoning and she bought these 2 at an auction so she could be grandfathered in and be able to keep animals on her property! :no:

So, thanks for all the advice. I just need to end this situation and get myself and my stallions out of it. What I haven't decided for sure is if I should contact this other breeder and tell her about the mare. They are generally good people and I hadn't thought of them as just out to make a buck, but maybe...

 

[HGFarm]

Most of the full sized horse owners here who breed to outside mares have a clause in their ads- 'to approved mares only' - which means they need to pass the inspection of the stallion owner before allowing them to be bred!!

If that minimal dwarf is registered, I wonder if the registry should be advised? I know the registries don't allow dwarfs to be registered and if it is more obvious beyond a short legged long backed horse, then I would try reporting it to them- with pics as long as you have them on the place??

I would personally have refused both- you are being awfully kind. Do you know if the other breeder is aware of the issue with the minimal mare and do they even care? Or are they looking at the stud fee?? (God I hope not)

If the vet even wrote a letter, you would think they would get a hint, but they are not. Are they educated and ready to deal with the mare producing a full fledged dwarf that will not make it, abortion of the fetus, or having a dwarf with major health problems that will not make it or have a miserable short life .... and wanting to take a chance on that?

I would think about sending the info to whatever registry it belongs to and see about having the papers pulled. That is just NOT RIGHT!

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

OMG!!! :no: :ugh:

I decided to call the other "breeder" and try to delicately discuss the issue. They actually said "she doesn't sound that extreme" :new_shocked: They are going to breed this mare for the $$$$! No, they didn't say that specifically, but that is what it boils down to! Not once did they say anything like "well, if there's a problem with the mare we won't breed her".

: Get a brain!!!

I use this person to clip my horses sometimes before a show. I HAD a lot of respect for them! I just can't believe this. :no:

 

[anita]

After long years experience..................

Folks see the moment $$$$ and can't look further.

Pamela be glad your stallion keeps his reputation.

Anita

 

[susanne]

Yoou are obviously a kind soul, and I would guess that it will be difficult to tell this woman that you won't breed her mare to your stallion, so here's a thought that may make it a bit easier:

Aside from your stallion's (and your) reputation, if you breed her mare you will be part of creating a living being condemned to a substandard home and an ignorant caretaker.

Keep that thought in mind and stick to your guns. I wish more people had your integrity.

 

[jlh]

is she paying board for the mares while on your property?

if not, let her know what kind of bill she's run up for board, feed, vet, grooming farrier, etc.

and these should not be cutrate charges

you have to be pretty blunt with her, because being nice isn't getting through

explain that you have to be very careful of the mares used for your stallions

then send her to this site

 

[LittleRibbie]

People can be so $%^$& ignorant !! You could explain to her till you are blue in the face the reasons her mares should not be bred....but....it would be a complete waste of time. Your heart is so much in the right place and there isnt a person here that does not agree w/your concerns but it all goes back to ignorant people. Same thing happens in the dog world all the time too. ....IGNORANCE....I better stop before I say too much.

Heidi

 

[Marty]

I changed my mind. I'm sorry I jumped the gun.

I'm disgusted with myself for being so hateful

I have to learn patience again......

I'd like you to call her and ask her to come over for a meeting (lunch)

Make sure you prepare desert too, because that will buy you more time to talk with her, not at her.

Then I would like you fully armed with propaganda and tons and tons of information on the subject that you can send home with her to read. Pictures too; whatever you can get.

I would really love to see you give this one more shot.

If you can convert just one person, who knows how many horses down the line from this offspring you will have saved

:

 

[miniwhinny]

I'd never breed to a dwarf because my stallions reputation would be at stake.

I also don't believe in "minimal dwarf" I think dwarf is like pregnant...you either are or you aren't

: I may be wrong but to me...dwarf is dwarf.

: I'd take care of one, I'd love it to pieces but I'd never ever breed one.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Thanks for the link! I will send it to her.

If you can convert just one person, who knows how many horses down the line from this offspring you will have saved

:

Marty, I agree. It just seems overwhelming at this point, but I do think I'm going to try and work on her some more.

I'd never breed to a dwarf because my stallions reputation would be at stake.
You're right. I would like to make it VERY clear that I'm NOT breeding Corona to EITHER of her horses.

I also don't believe in "minimal dwarf" I think dwarf is like pregnant...you either are or you aren't

: I may be wrong but to me...dwarf is dwarf.

: I'd take care of one, I'd love it to pieces but I'd never ever breed one.

You are SO right! I've always used the term minimal when there have been one or two visual characteristics, but not the obvious crooked legs, huge underbite, tongue hanging out, etc. The reality is a dwarf is a dwarf.

I am going to try to reason with her again. I'm going to plan it out and have lots of information with me when I do. Either way, I'm going to send both horses home without breeding the maiden. I know I told her I would and I had her pay (well, she hasn't paid yet!) for an exam and culture by my vet. I will just eat that cost and consider it a lesson learned on my part.

I have no doubt that this will get twisted around and someone I will end up being the bad guy, but at least I won't have added another mediocre, at best, mini to the world and I will have tried to make the best of a bad situation.

Thanks to EVERYONE for all the support via replies and PMs. :aktion033: You guys are the best!

 

[Miniv]

I basically agree with EVERYONE who has posted. From what you described you were initially MANIPULATED by the woman, especially when she brought her mares over without a warning. Those poor little mares could have invited all sorts of worms and viruses onto your property!

And as has been stated -- a dwarf is a dwarf...........minimal or not.......it will reflect on your breeding program in the end. Not to mention, perpetuating our problem of dwarfism within the miniature horse breed.

You have been very kind to this woman and have tried to advise, but obviously hit a stone wall. It has to end somewhere. **Be sure to get your board money. ** And if it were me, I'd tell her NO WAY with BOTH Mares! Suggest to her what books to read (including Barbara Naviaux's - which discusses dwarfism), and this Forum.

Find out who this "other breeder" is, if you can. File that info away for future "reference"....if you get my drift. And if it were me? I just may contact that other breeder and let him know that his reputation was definitely on the LINE in YOUR books! As long as you "state the facts", that other breeder has nothing he can say....but that's just me feeling very fired up and angry for you.

Frankly, the whole situation stinks. And I would pull out of it as quickly as possible.

MA

 

[LaraP]

After what we went thru with Ms Wiggles, I wouldn't wish a dwarf on my worse enemy.. It was a learning experience for sure, but it was a emotionally heart breaking. There is no way on this earth that I would breed anything that remotely had dwarf characteristics. Its bad enough when you get one by accident. We are responsible for anything we bred, whatever the animal is. and the whole point of breeding is to improve on the sire and the dam..

I wish this lady could have walked in alot of our shoes that happen to have a dwarf born on their farm and let her feel the heartbreak, and hard work it takes.

If the lady that has decided to bred these mares is a friend of yours ( so to speak) I wonder if once she sees these girls if she will go thru with it? I certainly hope not.

Lara

JMO