Breed versus Registry

[Becky]

Until we let Minis keep their registration regardless of height, they're not a breed.

So, there shouldn't be any height limitations? 40", 50" or even 14 or 15 hand 'miniatures' would be ok?

 

[kaykay]

Becky you still have a height its just if they go over they dont lose their heritage and papers. Just like Shetlands and other breeds they just cannot show if they go over the height limit. It doesnt seem to be a problem in Shetlands and other breeds so dont know why people think its such a huge issue in miniatures?

This is why you look on Craigslist or any other horse classifieds and every horse that isn't registered is called a "Quarter Horse."

And you will see tons of ads for "Shetland ponies" when they are actually grade ponies with no papers

 

[~Lisa~]

Until we let Minis keep their registration regardless of height, they're not a breed.

So, there shouldn't be any height limitations? 40", 50" or even 14 or 15 hand 'miniatures' would be ok?

well I guess if you ended up with at 15 hand mini from 2 -38 and under minis then the answer is yes IMO anyway

I think that AMHR and ASPC should start to PQ all new foals and that like most other breeds if both parents are registered then the foal should have papers as well.

have height limits for the show ring but reality is a mini is a mini if out of 2 minis

 

[sdmini]

The reason I bring up a set type is because if you go back to what charlotte posted - definition of breed - it goes to consistency Also if you read there is much discussion going on in the Quarter horse breed concerning losing the foundation Quarter horse and a group has already started a foundation quarter horse registry.

Obviously somewhere along the line QH looks started to change, if not there would be no need for the Foundation Registry.

The Foundation Registry started in SD so I've known about them pretty much from their inception. Would you consider the Foundation QH a breed or a registry? They need to have AQHA papers evaluated to get in, funny how I would consider them a registry over a breed even though they are more QH than most AQHA horses these days.

What are we saying when we say consistency any ways? Looks, size, movement, disposition? If AMHA/AMHR does come out with concrete, solid pictures of the miniature horse does that make those that do not meet those ideals not a miniature horse?

I've said it many times but AQHA excluded 3x's as many horses as AMHR/AMHA does and still were considered a breed. In fact it was because they were considered a breed that they had to allow foals from 2 AQHA parents in the registry, even if they were a cremello, tobiano from a embryo transfer.

Back to the original question I don't think there are any forms out there for breed status, I think it's more a state of mind than anything.

 

[~Lisa~]

I've said it many times but AQHA excluded 3x's as many horses as AMHR/AMHA does and still were considered a breed. In fact it was because they were considered a breed that they had to allow foals from 2 AQHA parents in the registry, even if they were a cremello, tobiano from a embryo transfer.

Yes and a court of law determined that if they were to be a breed they must register any horse out of two registered parents no matter the color ect so therefore that is precendent set that until AMHA or AMHR does so they are not a breed

 

[Katiean]

All regestry's are just that. A regestery. No matter what the animal, it is a group of people that got together and made a club. Some "clubs" are older than others. In this "club" they have shows that they approve of. They have events and meetings. ALL animals started out NOT REGISTERED! By keeping with certian bloodlines they say they are now purebred and then give validation to what they have done.

Just a thought.

 

[Minimor]

I agree--if Miniatures are to be a real "breed" then that means that any foal born to two registered Mini parents gets to have Mini papers, regardless of what size that foal grows up to be.

If AMHA/AMHR does come out with concrete, solid pictures of the miniature horse does that make those that do not meet those ideals not a miniature horse?

No, some people may call those horses 'off type' but they would still be Miniature horses if they have two registered Mini parents. And even if you put a picture out there as the perfect Miniature horse, people will never see that certain horses don't match that picture.

Take the Morgan breed as an example. The Morgan horse has a standard of perfection...a standard which is perhaps just a little less vague than that of the Miniatures. Would have to read it again now to see just what it does say, but overall it's not that much more detailed than what is written for Miniatures. The Morgan breed does also have a set of pictures--paintings by Jeanne Mellin--that are distributed by AMHA as being the "ideal" Morgan mare, gelding and stallion. There is also the woodcut of Justin Morgan himself that is held up as the standard for Morgans. That woodcut looks rather different from the 3 ideal horse pictures. There are many, many Morgans that do not look much like either the woodcut or the pictures....yet depending who you ask, people insist that a specific horse looks exactly like the woodcut....or exactly like one of those pictures. I have horses in mind that I would say look very like the woodcut, or the pictures--and I have horses in mind who don't at all fit the standard of perfection, and they don't look anything like the woodcut, and they don't look at all like Jeanne's pictures of the ideal mare/gelding/stallion. Yet there are other people who will insist that those horses (the ones I don't count as matching the type) are EXACTLY like the woodcut....or the pictures....or they EXACTLY fit the standard of perfection.

 

[Becky]

AQHA has a rule in place disallowing registration - Rule 205 (3) Effective with foals born on or after January 1, 2007,

all descendants of the stallion Impressive, AQHA registration number 0767246, shall be required to be parentage verified and HYPP

tested, subject to the conditions in ©(2) above. Any foal testing homozygous positive for HYPP (H/H) will not be eligible for registration

with AQHA.

So, there is a rule whereby a foal with two registered parents would not be allowed registration in AQHA. I'm sure that all other registries have rules pertaining to what horses are or are not eligible for registration.

Hypothetically speaking, if the miniature registries allowed oversize horses to retain their registration papers and they were/are used for breeding, then the gene pool would continue to increase in height. Thereby the smaller horses, with smaller parentage would become increasingly more rare, therefore increasing in value. Maybe that's not such a bad idea.

 

[~Lisa~]

LOL Becky but honestly I do not think it would increase the number of oversize horses out there being bred just may increase the chance of people being honest about the height of horses

Heck we have all seen the over 34 inch (at AMHA) or over 34 or 38 inch(at AMHR) horses who have actually been measured in and allowed to show-

so imagine the size of some of the minis they have at home in the pasture as breeding stock

 

[Minimor]

Yeah, with so many people breeding oversize horses now and pretending that they are within the registry height requirements, I don't think making those horses 'legal' would make one bit of difference in the overall height range of Miniatures.

So, there is a rule whereby a foal with two registered parents would not be allowed registration in AQHA. I'm sure that all other registries have rules pertaining to what horses are or are not eligible for registration.

They are not allowed registration because they carry a genetic defect that the breed is trying to eliminate from the gene pool. Something similar could someday be done in Miniatures with the dwarf genes...when testing is available and the non-dwarf gene pool increases, those foals carrying the dwarf gene could be denied registration...if a breed chooses to eliminate a genetic defect from its gene pool, anyone trying to fight that in court probably isn't going to win. Someone taking a registry to court to get their "breed"--as in "real breed"--to allow registration for a foal off of two registered parents even if that foal is too tall.....or the wrong color....or if there are too many foals resulting from embryo transfer is probably going to win, and the breed will be forced to allow those foals to have papers.

 

[Humhill]

Until we let Minis keep their registration regardless of height, they're not a breed.

So, there shouldn't be any height limitations? 40", 50" or even 14 or 15 hand 'miniatures' would be ok?

Yes. It's about parentage, not height. I can see where back in the day, when they were developing the Associations, limiting the height of horses to start the gene pool. But now, we have so many horses in the gene pool, we can close the studbook and call it a breed.

Allowing oversize Minis to keep their papers wouldn't increase the size of the breed as long as the show requirements don't change. Most people won't breed for non-show size horses anyway. What are they going to do with them anyway? Ok, so I have a 45" Miniature. Who cares? I wouldn't be able to do anything with it? Maybe do hunter/jumpers? What difference does it make?

 

[Charlotte]

I guess I don't understand at all. What I'm reading here is *an organization can't have any registration requirements or perhaps any rules at all or it might get sued?* Is that the gist of this?

I just did a real quick search. Results below.

ASPC Rule Book on line
Part 3 – Height for Classic Shetlands

A. To be eligible for registration, the maximum height at

the withers shall not exceed 46”.

Welsh Pony

The Section A pony may not exceed 12.2hh.

Exmoor Pony

Entry in the breed registry requires that the animal has no white markings and is not too tall. They usually stand 11.1 to 12.3 hands (1.13 to 1.25 m), with the height limit for mares being 12.2 hands (1.24 m) and that for stallions and geldings 12.3 hands (1.25 m).

Sooooo, how is ok for these breeds to have registration requirements and it's not ok for the AMHA/AMHR miniature horse to have registration requirements?

Charlotte

 

[Minimor]

Charlotte, regardless of how the rules are worded--an ASPC pony does not lose its papers if it goes over 46". If a pony measures too tall at a show it doesn't have its papers taken away, it just is not allowed to show. I don't believe a Sec. A welsh loses it's papers, either, if it grows too tall--used to have a friend that raised & showed Welsh, and seems to me she told me that.

 

[kaykay]

Charlotte no one (I think?) is saying that you cant have a height requirement. A lot of breeds do. But you cannot lose registration papers if the horse goes over the height. Its still a miniature, shetland whatever. Since the horse cant show who cares?? At least the breeder has the option of selling the horse to a home with papers and that buyer can show it 4H, open etc.

Hypothetically speaking, if the miniature registries allowed oversize horses to retain their registration papers and they were/are used for breeding, then the gene pool would continue to increase in height. Thereby the smaller horses, with smaller parentage would become increasingly more rare, therefore increasing in value. Maybe that's not such a bad idea. smile.gif

If there was a predictable way to predict height that might be true. But we have all seen that it is not predictable at all. I have a mare that was AMHA. Grew to 35". All A breeding. To date she has never produced a foal over 34" even when bred to my 36.5" ASPC/AMHR stallion. (unfortunately for me as I am breeding for B division)

Another case I have right now. 36.5" ASPC/AMHR stallion bred to 38" ASPC/AMHR mare. They have a daughter on the ground now that may mature 34" or under. Right now she is very tiny. Go figure?

Same stallion bred to a 46" ASPC mare. Resulting colt is now almost 2 years old and 35" Again go figure LOL

I have to think this stallion of mine for whatever reason is a size reducer. Looking at his pedigree there is no really small heritage. So where did it come from?? Who knows.

Just saying that breeding tall to tall doesnt always equal B division and breeding small to small doesnt always equal A division. Its mind boggling LOL

Kay

 

[targetsmom]

Something similar could someday be done in Miniatures with the dwarf genes...when testing is available and the non-dwarf gene pool increases, those foals carrying the dwarf gene could be denied registration

A bit off topic, but I did want to point out that in AQHA they are not excluding horses that CARRY the HYPP gene, only those that are homozygous for it. A comparable exclusion in AMHA or AMHR would exclude DWARFS but not carriers of the dwarf gene.

I don't think that would be much different than what they are doing now??

 

[Humhill]

ASPC Rule Book on line
Part 3 – Height for Classic Shetlands

A. To be eligible for registration, the maximum height at

the withers shall not exceed 46”.

Welsh Pony

The Section A pony may not exceed 12.2hh.

Exmoor Pony

Entry in the breed registry requires that the animal has no white markings and is not too tall. They usually stand 11.1 to 12.3 hands (1.13 to 1.25 m), with the height limit for mares being 12.2 hands (1.24 m) and that for stallions and geldings 12.3 hands (1.25 m).

Sooooo, how is ok for these breeds to have registration requirements and it's not ok for the AMHA/AMHR miniature horse to have registration requirements?

Charlotte

I showed Welsh Ponies for a while a few years back. A Welsh Pony is always a Welsh no matter how tall it gets. 12.2hh - 13.2hh is a Section B, 13.2 - 14.2 is a Section C, and 14.2 + is a Section D/Cob.

Now, they do have requirements such that only an A bred to an A can produce an A. An A bred to a B produces a B, and so on.