Breed versus Registry

[Gypsygal]

There has been many discussions on our registries not being a "breed". Who decides what is a breed and how do we get our registries changed from a registry to a breed. IS there some association that determines which breeds are "true" breeds. Any information would be helpful. I am just a little confused to the process - or if there is a formal process or application.

Thanks

 

[Katiean]

I wonder the same thing. Since when we breed our "little horses" they produce the same as they are.Sometimes they are bigger and sometimes they are smaller. A mini rex rabbit is a breed and through the ARBA they have to produce the same "like" animal for so many generations before they can become a breed. There are still some larger and some smaller. They are still a breed. Why is this whole thing such an issue with AMHA/AMHR? When they started the registrys they should have a set of standards that is a Miniature horse. Breeding for that "LOOK" insted of "that size". Well, you need to breed for both. But, give us a standard to breed to or they will never be a breed. JMO.

 

[Charlotte]

To my knowledge there is no governing body in the USA that confers 'breeddom' on any group of animals.

In some other countries there may be much more government regulation of animal breeding. (glad I live here)

The American Miniature Horse (whether AMHA or AMHR registered) fits the common definitions of a 'breed'.

1. A breed is a group of domestic animals with a homogeneous appearance, behavior, and other characteristics that distinguish it from other animals)

2. {A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation.}

Look up the definition of the word 'breed'. this will go a long way to answering your question.

When they started the registrys they should have a set of standards that is a Miniature horse. Breeding for that "LOOK" insted of "that size". Well, you need to breed for both. But, give us a standard to breed to or they will never be a breed. JMO.

Both AMHA & AMHR have 'breed requirements' and a STANDARD OF PERFECTION. Look in the online rule books and you will find these. In this country horse breeding isn't government regulated so it is up to us to breed toward the standard.

Why is this whole thing such an issue with AMHA/AMHR?

I don't think it is an issue with AMHA & AMHR.

Charlotte

 

[Bess Kelly]

I am not a member or familiar will all "breed" rules for AQHA, etc...........BUT, it seems to ME that part of the "issue" would be that there would be a consideration for the non-conforming of the "breed". Since there is that ole height thingee

, we once again visit the "two parents that meet all the standards/requirements and the foal who is too tall". Right?

Really, I don't know the reason or answer but, it appears that HEIGHT and the surrounding dilemmas we have chatted over for years and years and YEARS are a big part of this. Like others have said, if the rabbit is from two registered ones

why is it NOT one? So, non-breeding, non-showing, appendix, non-conforming --- it's "non" something but, not "non-mini heritage"

SO, I'm with others -- WHAT makes the cut and doesn't with being a breed? Is this part of the reason for closing the hardships? To insure parentage, to become a breed? Don't really know.

But, without any ill feelings or getting "panties in a knot", certainly many would be interested in knowing. Just how DID those others become "breeds". Where is the history detective???

 

[rabbitsfizz]

As far as the breed standard is concerned, well, yes, it's there, but that means very little, I'm afraid.

There is nothing, except height, that makes a Mini distinguishable from anything else, so, if it went over height, it would not look like an over height Mini, it would look like a pony.

If an Arab, for example, was ultra small or ultra tall it would still, with a few notable differences, be discernible as a small or large, Arab.

This is not so with Minis.

Therefore they are not a breed, not yet, they are a height registry, with breed aspirations.

 

[ropenride]

To quote Charlotte

The American Miniature Horse (whether AMHA or AMHR registered) fits the common definitions of a 'breed'.

1. A breed is a group of domestic animals with a homogeneous appearance, behavior, and other characteristics that distinguish it from other animals)

2. {A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation.}

I consider the Horse under 38" to be a "Breed". The height requirement distinguishes the registries.

I consider a "Registry" to be the gathering place of all the horses that conform to the Breed Standard. AQHA = Quarter Horses; APHA = Paint Horses; Jockey Club = Thoroughbred Horses; Palomino Registry = Palomino Horses; Pinto Registry = horses meeting a "white requirement", etc.

So you have the American Miniature Horse Breed with the under 34" Registry (AMHA) and the under 38" Registry (AMHR).

Sorta off topic -

The height dilemia is something else entirely. Once the AMHA registry is closed, what do you do with the "leftovers"....the horses that conform to all of the "breed" requirements, but not the "height" requirement? Why should foal of AMHA Grand Champ Joe Stud (30.25") and AMHA Grand Champ Jane Mare (32") become "Muttly Nobody" just because he/she is 35" tall? Situations similar to this have become the basis for many lawsuits against AQHA (i.e., white rule), and a division in APHA (breeding stock).

And 98% of John Q Public will always look at a Miniature Horse and say "Oh, what a cute little pony!"

 

[Katiean]

I guess what I am saying is; Sit down and write a standard of perfection. Not a generalization of what to look for give a drawing or photo of what they should look like. Give examples! Weather it is like an Arab, QH, TB, Draft or a combination of all listed. If it should be "draft type" or "saddle horse type". When you look at the Standard of Perfection on a Mini Rex Rabbit (now I am going to take this from memory so it might not be totally accurate) First there are pictures to show what they are saying. They start with head type; to be short and wide Ears to be no longer than 4". Shoulders to be broad saddle short with a broad rump cresting at the center of the animal. Weight not over 4 1/2lbs and not under 2 1/2lbs for a SR (over 6 months old). But you can breed any sizes of mini rex and still show the young. Now they went through a phase of how the animals were to be "set up" just like the mini Horses. Some people would "Bunch" the rabbit to get the Round look that they were supposed to have when their feet were square under them. After they were judged they would take their rabbit back to the carry cage and set the rabbit up all bunched and say "Look, at this crest. That judge doesn't know what they are talking about. When the fact was they had animals that were long in the back and lacked balance. In My Opinion, if you put forth a standard that you can show with a picture so it is not open to interpretation (well, people always see things just a little different) But, you wouldn't have an Arab type, a QH type a generic saddle horse type. If you looked at a mini horse you would know it by the LOOK not just the size. Maybe instead of having 28" and under and those types of breakdown they should have QH mini class, Arab mini class and divide them by type rather than size that way for people that like a draft type can show just as competitive as the Refined Arab type that in in the ring right now. And panties are not in a bunch here and please no flames. I am just expressing my opinion. I just think this "Breed vs. Registry" thing should be simplified.

 

[Gypsygal]

Thanks for the input. I had tried to research everywhere I could to find out if there was an organization that made the decision when a breed became a breed and not just a registry. I am with you Charlotte - I dont think there is one. So irregardless if we close our registries or not we are still a registry.

 

[kaykay]

This has been debated a lot over the years but I think you have to really look at this word

Main Entry: ho·mo·ge·neous

Pronunciation: \-ˈjē-nē-əs, -nyəs\

Function: adjective

Etymology: Medieval Latin homogeneus, homogenus, from Greek homogenēs, from hom- + genos kind — more at kin

Date: 1641

1 : of the same or a similar kind or nature

2 : of uniform structure or composition throughout <a culturally homogeneous neighborhood>

3 : having the property that if each variable is replaced by a constant times that variable the constant can be factored out : having each term of the same degree if all variables are considered <a homogeneous equation>

This is our problem. We do not have one set type and we have a very loose standard. You can see just by looking at pictures here on LB how many different types of miniatures there are. In order to be a BREED you have to have one consistent type. Who is going to decide which type that is?? And how far off are we in producing only one set type?? Many people love and breed for draft type miniatures. Others breed the more fine boned (arabian) type (which I dont think look arabian at all but just for an example) Which is going to be the set type to make miniatures a breed?

There is also the height problem that has been discussed. If you have 2 miniatures bred together that produce a horse over 34" it would still have to be a miniature if its a breed. I know others say that isnt true but I can see where if miniatures become a breed there would be lots of lawsuits if a 35" horse was denied papers.

Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for because you might just get it

Kay

 

[stormy]

If type is what defines a breed then there are many registries that so not fit the standard. There was a discussion here about Walking horses just last week, big difference in type between plantation and big lickers. Look at the Shetland registry, it also has a wide variety of types, Modern, Classic, Foundation. Morgan horses also have a wide variety of "types". No horse looses it's papers because it does not fit the type. Registries are about genetics.

Once a registry os closed all offspring are from the same genetic background and thus, over time, become more genetically similar and reproduce true to type, whichever type that may be.

 

[Becky]

If type is what defines a breed then there are many registries that so not fit the standard. There was a discussion here about Walking horses just last week, big difference in type between plantation and big lickers. Look at the Shetland registry, it also has a wide variety of types, Modern, Classic, Foundation. Morgan horses also have a wide variety of "types". No horse looses it's papers because it does not fit the type. Registries are about genetics.
Once a registry os closed all offspring are from the same genetic background and thus, over time, become more genetically similar and reproduce true to type, whichever type that may be.

Agree!

A color registry or breed registry or bloodline registry or whatever you want to call it, still has a list of requirements that must be met before a horse can hold registration papers in that particular organization. If a horse doesn't meet those requirements, then it no longer is eligible for registration in that registry.

 

[kaykay]

Dont misunderstand. I am not against it happening. Just saying it opens up all other cans of worms that have to be thought about. I have said before I would be all for having different divisions of miniatures but many will say its not possible due to length of classes/shows etc.

I do think though the standard needs to be redone no matter what. It is so loose and so vague that it really doesnt mean anything.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The original Standard of Perfection, (which was lifted almost word for word from the UK Shetland standard) was, I think, intended merely to ensure a sound animal with a good conformation, and to allow the "type" to be interpreted as wished.

Even though there are many "types" of Arab, the end result is still an animal that can be discerned , nine times out of ten, to be an Arab, not a carthorse.

This is not so with Minis, there is no set type, within the standard.

Most Walkers would be easily identified as such, even if they differed form the set norm slightly, you would still be able to see they were Walking Horses.

The very fact that people are successfully breeding part Arab Pintos, and that there are registries and shows for these horses, shows that there is a set idea of what an Arab looks like.

The only set idea for a Mini is that it is under 38 or 34 inches high.

Nothing else.

Most people do not care what it looks like, so long as it is small, hence the active market for dwarfs.

The only place that you get any idea of where the "breed " is heading, type wise, is in the show ring and there, just as soon as we think "Yes, that's what a Mini should look like" it changes.

Bit like the weather

You cannot breed a Mini to another breed and get a "half Mini" it does not work.

Until the type is set, until you can look at something that has gone over height and see that it is an over height Mini, even if the books close, it will not, automatically, be a breed.

 

[disneyhorse]

I think a lot of people get caught up in the "Well there are DIFFERENT BODY TYPES OF MINIATURES" and everyone wants THEIR "type" represented so they can compete in whatever they want. They may have a drafty type of mini that they love, well nope it has such a tiny chance of becoming National Grand Halter compared to the refined Shetland type of mini... and they complain that there needs to be a halter class for that "type".

Well, perhaps then compare it to a real draft type breed, like the Percheron. The Percheron has a "halter type" that have very upright necks, trim barrels, and long legs. Nope, that old farm-style chunk horse STILL won't be able to compete at the National show (Congress) because it isn't what the judges are picking as halter type! Well, that old farm-style chunk horse CAN compete at the National show in the farm implement classes!

I think people need to let go of the "breed type" hangups. However, I think the Registries do a great disservice by not allowing taller horses to retain their papers. The Shetland ponies have a SHOW HEIGHT limit of 46"... but if your Shetland measures 47" it keeps its papers... you can still breed it and show it's offspring if they stay at show height. Shetland ponies never lose their papers due to height. And you know what? MOST Shetland ponies are not horse sized! Imagine that!

Andrea

 

[sdmini]

This is our problem. We do not have one set type and we have a very loose standard. You can see just by looking at pictures here on LB how many different types of miniatures there are. In order to be a BREED you have to have one consistent type. Kay

I'm going to disagree...profusely, on this one. AQHA is the largest "breed" out there and there are their biggest draw is they do not have a "set" type. You don't like one type, no problem, get a different type. AQHA may have, in the beginning, had a concrete idea of what they wanted but that went out the window the moment they started allowing crossings with TB, the polar opposite of what the original "cow pony" was.

No one has ever questioned that AQHA was a breed rather than a registry and up until VERY recently they excluded, "albinos", excessive white and foals from embryo transfer. They did not allow those horses in because they wanted to become a "breed" but rather because the court ruled they had to.

Despite the way my words may come across I am not that passionate about the subject, rather I don't see where the controversy comes from as I don't see what is going to change if suddenly get called a breed rather than registry. You know the old saying a rose by any other name.......

 

[ThreeCFarm]

Marlee, you beat me to it. I was going to bring up the vast differences in Quarter Horses. AQHA has everything from the shorter cow horses, to the heavily muscled chunky halter horses to the mostly TB hunt seat horses that may be as much as 17 hands tall!! And despite the differences in type, they are ALL registered QH. Yes, there are certain breeds that are more easily identifiable than others, like Arabians, but many breeds are just like the registered QH.

Why the big hang up on type for minis?

Gotta go, I hear the school bus!

 

[kaykay]

The reason I bring up a set type is because if you go back to what charlotte posted - definition of breed - it goes to consistency

I have to say though attending quarter horse congress in columbus since moving to Ohio I do not see a big difference in types there. Also if you read there is much discussion going on in the Quarter horse breed concerning losing the foundation Quarter horse and a group has already started a foundation quarter horse registry. Seems that a lot of breeds have the same issue in types/breeds getting too extreme as the years go by. Same as the Shetland so that is why the Foundation division came about. But for sure it didnt cure the problem

This isnt anything Im real passionate about either. Just an interesting subject.

I can definitely see both sides of the argument

I think if someone cares there are quite a few posts on this subject by John Eberth that are pretty interesting too

 

[~Lisa~]

The problem is that in every breed show ring type horses are fads like it or not that is what they are and yes that can change what other people breed so type does matter.

No one knows what will happen in 5 years- 10 years will the minis be so extreme they look nothing like the mini of today? Will the so called shetland minis (which is not a breed as many people seem to imply) be what is winning? Or will it go back to a more foundation type of horse?

Look at the past 3 or 4 years of Nationals and the winning horses have been very different from very typey and what others call shetland like to very "mini like" and it is does flop back and forth.

Talk about shetland minis well what kind? A modern- a classic- a foundation.. so much up for subjctiveness.

Wanting a type for everything well it is that way in the Shetlands as well which is why they have 5 different divisions to choose from and you can put your horse in any you so choose at any given time short of Foundation. You can switch back and forth at any time as well and it seems to be working for ASPC so why not AMHR? Is it really all that different?... people like to try and make a even playing field in any breed.

Breed- registry to me it doesnt really matter what you call it but IMO only it will not be a breed unless every horse born to a miniature horse by a miniature horse remains a miniature horse.

 

[Katiean]

[

Breed- registry to me it doesnt really matter what you call it but IMO only it will not be a breed unless every horse born to a miniature horse by a miniature horse remains a miniature horse.

Exactly!!!

 

[Humhill]

The only place that you get any idea of where the "breed " is heading, type wise, is in the show ring and there, just as soon as we think "Yes, that's what a Mini should look like" it changes.Bit like the weather

Tell me about it!

I'm going to disagree...profusely, on this one. AQHA is the largest "breed" out there and there are their biggest draw is they do not have a "set" type. You don't like one type, no problem, get a different type.

This is why you look on Craigslist or any other horse classifieds and every horse that isn't registered is called a "Quarter Horse."

Agree with what some other people said. Until we let Minis keep their registration regardless of height, they're not a breed. It's like saying my mother is 5'3" and my father is 5'7" but I grow up to be 5'10", so I'm no longer their daughter. But that's a whole other discussion....