Bizarre condition in my Modern yearling

[Mercysmom]

Nefertiti has not gained weight the way I would expect her to do and with all the food she gets. She is on daily wormer, vet was out, she suggested the horse dentist take a look.

He looked and looked again and said her teeth are normal for a yearling but her tongue has no feeling in it and it is extremely thin. He pulled it out the side of her mouth and flicked it with a finger and she did not retract it initially. It is not as pink as the other horses' tongues - more of a flesh color, and I see no evidence of trauma on it. She is vaccinated, in a dry lot with tape fencing, her stall is safe and secure with nothing sharp to hurt her...Has anyone ever experienced anything like this? The dentist said in almost 30 years with horses he has never seen anything like it and wants to know what the veterinarian comes up with.

When she eats, she attacks her pellets to get them into her mouth. She uses water to rinse things back in her mouth. Hay she eats but loses some to "quidding", which once that happens, she doesn't usually pick the quids up and eat them although this morning it looked like she ate 75% of what she normally dropped.

Grass she cannot eat well at all - if she is grazing on her own, quids fall from her mouth.

The veterinarian will be out at 10:30 this morning and I am already devastated as this is my only Modern and I don't feel she will have a good quality of life eating like this - hoping the veterinarian might have other options for us but in my heart I feel euthanasia (sp?) is probably the best option for Neffie, but not for me. Independence will also feel this as she and Neffie are bonded - they play together, eat hay together... since Neffie takes longer to eat her grain, Indy waits for her....

It was tough to find her mother, who I could afford, and to get Neffie was a real blessing - she was exactly what I wanted in a Modern but could not afford - refined conformation, animated, natural movement, hot yet tractable and eager to learn things and friendly. We were planning on showing at the Area One show again since she is no longer the wild child she was then...and hoping to go to either Congress or the World Show in 2008 since we have never done a show of that caliber and now here I am looking for a neighbor with a backhoe and can't even imagine starting all over to try to find a Modern filly I can afford in time to get to the shows in 2008...we are a mares only herd here so geldings and stallions are not an option. After my summer on the sofa recovering from the knee surgeries and the joint infection, looking forward to the Modern classes in 2008, this is a real downer.

My mind is spinning... can't believe it. My wonderful therapy horse Mercy has been trying to keep my spirits up - she did at Barktoberfest and kept my mind off of this morning....but not even Mercy's magic can fix this.

Thanks for listening....

Denise

Silversong Farm

 

[kaykay]

i have never heard of such a thing? anxious to see what the vet says. Most of her symptoms sound like hooks on her teeth? did the dentist sedate her to look? i had a vet that specializes in dentistry here (instead of just an dentist) and he showed me how difficult it is to really see the hooks on a horse unless you sedate them. that way they can really get the mouth open and get to the hooks in the back. Also she kinda reminds me of that filly we took in that no one realized had a cleft palate. She just couldnt gain weight and feed always came back out. took her to osu and they found a very unusual cleft palate. she was a yearling and they couldnt belive she lived that long.

Sending prayers

 

[Mercysmom]

The dentist had her mouth open without sedation - she stood quietly for him (unusual for Neffie) and he had a special set of lighted glasses he used to look back in her mouth. He said young horse teeth are soft and he prefers to wait to float them. He was very gentle with her and my girls can be tough but they were perfect little ladies.

Her tongue seems to be the issue as I watched Weatherly (one of our Morgans) eat her pellets (same as Neffie's) and she uses her tongue to pick them up in her feeder. Same with our other Morgan Enterprise, and our minis Freedom, Independence and Mercy. Indy and Mercy both had hooks and edges that he took care of and he discovered Indy has an extra set of molars further inside her mouth that had hooks that he took care of. She was very happy to be floated and is eating more comfortably. Neffie does not use her tongue at all.

Denise

Silversong Farm

 

[Minimor]

I once knew of someone that had a horse who actually lost his tongue. He was stalled, and they figure he was licking the bars of the stall dividers & the horse in the next stall grabbed his tongue and bit/tore it off. I thought euthanasia would be the only thing to do for this horse, but they kept him & nursed him until his tongue healed, then they managed his feed carefully to be sure he had food he could eat.

I wish I could tell you more about it, but this was a long time ago & I don't even remember now who that was--it was a Morgan person, but that's all I can say for sure.

It would sound like there must have been some sort of trauma and now the tongue has atrophied, that's why it's got a deflated appearance? How long ago did you start noticing that she was having these eating problems?

My only suggestion would be if there are certain foods she can eat better than others, to give her more of those foods, and make them high powered. What kind of hay is she on? If grass hay, I'd switch to alfalfa, assuming she can eat it at least as well as she can the grass hay--the alfalfa will give her more protein and should help her to put on more weight. Obviously if she's already on alfalfa, that idea is out the window. Grazing--I can see that won't work too well with a paralyzed tongue, unless it's very tall grass, then she might be able to get more back in her mouth. Pellets or oats--does she manage to swallow the grain, or does she lose much/all of it? Obviously she will have to have her own way of eating it--ramming her nose down into the pellets to force them back into her mouth--but if she can eat it I would feed her plenty. How about soaked hay cubes or soaked beet pulp?

I'll check my vet book to see if there are any tongue conditions in there, but I don't recall ever noticing any, and I've looked through that book a lot!

 

[kaykay]

well after the vet comes i would sedate her and look again. we had a yearling filly here that the other vet floated and she was still having problems. the equine vet dentist came and sedated her and showed me all the hooks the first vet didnt get. I couldnt believe how sharp the hooks were for a yearling! So she was floated again and the difference was amazing.

Hopefully your vet can figure something out. I feel so bad for both of you!

 

[Fred]

Dee, some young horses do need special dental care. I know I had one. I had a vet out that I trust implicitly and STILL had her done at nationals. Some vets do not understand teeth the way dentists do. I explained to my vet what was done to her by the dentist and she totally agreed that it was more than she could have done for her. On a side note have you had bloodwork done on her? Sometimes they might have an underlying issue that none of us can figure out. As for daily wormer I am not a big fan of it as when the farm used it we still had horses with large worm loads and youngsters are worm magnets. Trying some soaked beet pulp might help too as its easy to chew and digest. Hoping for all the best as she is such a good girl.

 

[Mercysmom]

It would sound like there must have been some sort of trauma and now the tongue has atrophied, that's why it's got a deflated appearance? How long ago did you start noticing that she was having these eating problems?

My only suggestion would be if there are certain foods she can eat better than others, to give her more of those foods, and make them high powered. What kind of hay is she on? If grass hay, I'd switch to alfalfa, assuming she can eat it at least as well as she can the grass hay--the alfalfa will give her more protein and should help her to put on more weight. Obviously if she's already on alfalfa, that idea is out the window. Grazing--I can see that won't work too well with a paralyzed tongue, unless it's very tall grass, then she might be able to get more back in her mouth. Pellets or oats--does she manage to swallow the grain, or does she lose much/all of it? Obviously she will have to have her own way of eating it--ramming her nose down into the pellets to force them back into her mouth--but if she can eat it I would feed her plenty. How about soaked hay cubes or soaked beet pulp?

I'll check my vet book to see if there are any tongue conditions in there, but I don't recall ever noticing any, and I've looked through that book a lot!

Thanks!

She is on a grass/timothy hay - some bales she eats better than others. Grass she can eat when I am baiting her but to graze and pick, she quids the grass up and it falls out.

She is on Blue Seal Demand pellets - she eats them, and will wash them down with water (I kept my hands in the bucket to see what she was losing and it was maybe 2-4 pellets at a time). The pellets that fall from her mouth she goes back and eats. We tried Omegatin and that helped but at 22.00 a bag, I need to make sure she is getting every bit of it if we go back to that. Don't fall out of your chair but she gets 3 quarts (yes, you read right) at each feeding and it takes her a long time to eat. I thought cleft palate for a bit but she is intact and does not discharge food through her nose.

Beet pulp this past spring did nothing for her... Enterprise was on it as well to plump her up - it worked for her but not for Neffie and that is when we had the veterinarian out first and she suggested the horse dentist, who I have been calling for a month and finally got him out here. I may go back to the soaked alfalfa cubes as Freedom has to be on them through the winter to keep her regular....

I am devastated...and suppose I have to start saving my pennies and hopefully find another Modern filly, somewhere....and they are difficult to find as I started looking this morning and I am finding nothing out there. :no:

Denise

Silversong Farm

 

[Mercysmom]

Dee, some young horses do need special dental care. I know I had one. I had a vet out that I trust implicitly and STILL had her done at nationals. Some vets do not understand teeth the way dentists do. I explained to my vet what was done to her by the dentist and she totally agreed that it was more than she could have done for her. On a side note have you had bloodwork done on her? Sometimes they might have an underlying issue that none of us can figure out. As for daily wormer I am not a big fan of it as when the farm used it we still had horses with large worm loads and youngsters are worm magnets. Trying some soaked beet pulp might help too as its easy to chew and digest. Hoping for all the best as she is such a good girl.

This is why we had the dentist out - the vet could not find edges and the dentist did but he said they were not bad enough to float and he had Neffie's mouth open wide and had his fingers in and around her teeth and her tongue. He said he waits on floating baby teeth as they are soft and change frequently until the other teeth come in.

The tongue is the issue - I wish I had video of how she eats as it is the most baffling thing and the vet sat and watched her eat and said it is a teeth thing - the dentist watched her eat and said it is a tongue thing - have the vet out to evaluate her further and he wanted to know what was found. It does not feel like a normal tongue - it is slimy, thin and has creases in it.

I will see if there is bloodwork that can be done.

We did paste wormer until she was a year then went to the daily... that was the only change we made in the minis and knock on wood, none have had weather related colics but Freedom needs the extra moisture the soaked alfalfa provides (she colicked on soaked beet pulp) to keep her insides moving.

I cannot see any trauma and Neffie has never been off her feed to indicate she was injured - the only odd thing she did this spring was try to nurse off of Enterprise and Weatherly but they never swatted her - they would nip at her and she did the "baby mouth thing" but her tongue never was out of her mouth - it is so thin it sits perfectly in her lower jaw. The quidding and failure to thrive has progressively gotten worse but in small degrees... not anything noticeable until I had her out on the grass and the quidding problem was very apparent.

All the other horses I have seen lick their lips - come to think of it - I have never seen Neffie do that and when she was a newborn, that little pink tongue worked just fine - she licked with it and could wrap it around the teats....

Vet should be here momentarily.

Denise

Silversong Farm

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Oh please don't euthanize her before looking into everything possible. 3 qts is alot but perhaps you can switch to a seior pellet feed. I'm in NY also and can give you a few equine dentist #s if you wish.

 

[Mercysmom]

UPDATE:

Our veterinarian was just out - she confirmed that Neffie's teeth are in good shape but her tongue has no feeling from the tip to about two inches up (she pinched the tongue and then tested it with a needle to see how far back she could go before Neffie had feeling). She has use of the back of it - she could pull it away from the veterinarian and moved it in her mouth. There are no signs of trauma or dead tissue and even though it is flesh colored it looked healthy to her. The slimy texture is due to the fact she cannot move the front to clear it off and the thinness of it is due to the fact she cannot use it - similar to the atrophy my leg went through this summer from lack of use and the surgeries and infection. She looked at Neffie's face for signs of assymmetry as she said an injury with nerve damage would cause her face to become "uneven". Luckily, she is symmetrical.

Neffie is compensating with her lips to keep food in her mouth and using the water to wash it down so our veterinarian recommended going to soaked alfalfa cubes and soaking her pellets so they are more like thick oatmeal and possibly adding beet pulp to that. She said Neffie appears bright and happy and was behaving like a normal horse - she is definitely part of our herd. I am so relieved - I was worried that a horse who could not eat properly would be compromised but she felt Neffie is happy and when I turned her out with her herd, she gave her head a toss and a little kick.

Even more scary was the fact that all my minis (Mercy, Freedom and Independence) and Weatherly and Enterprise were not outside but were all in the run-in stall (it is two stalls together - my hubby gave up his shop in the back so the Morgans could be closed in during the winter if needed), waiting for me to come back down to the barn. They never herd in there together - usually Mercy or Freedom chases everyone outside.

Our veterinarian felt Neffie was in good weight (she reminded me that she "does not like to see fat babies") even though I felt she was thin... and then she said that Enterprise was looking a bit round (I have cut back her food) and Weatherly is in good form and going through another growth spurt.

But, she has never seen anything like it - she said Neffie is eating like a 35 year old horse with the quidding problem...she is going to consult with Cornell University to see if they have ever seen anything like it. She did not recommend bringing Neffie there as we could "test for everything under the sun" and the problem will still be there along with a big bill.

The other thing, when we first learned of the problem, after the dentist left, I started having thoughts of having to put her down and we started looking for someone with a backhoe and I wanted the veterinarian to come look at her to let me know if that was something we had to consider.

The oddest thing happened - she kept getting in my face this weekend and looking at me intently and whinnying to me and she is not as talkative as the other horses here. I got a strong feeling that she was telling me she is not ready to go, that she could work through this...even though it was tough for her to eat.

So, with a renewed heart of my own, I am off to the feed store for beet pulp and alfalfa cubes and we are going to fight and make Area One in 2008 and maybe the World Show or Pony Congress as Neffie has let me know she can do it for me.

Also, I should have remembered a valuable lesson from my dwarf Bodie - even though he did not run like a normal horse, nobody told him he wasn't normal! He is still thriving at age three, along with his half-sister Connie - they are on a permanent loan with a friend of mine under the condition that if she cannot keep them, they come back to me.

Thank you to all who listened to me - maybe through the experience we are going through, we will be able to help others... that is the greatest thing about this board.

Whew... I need a cup of tea.

Denise

Silversong Farm

 

[Shari]

Has the Vet checked for Tetanus? Because one of the first syptoms is part or full loss of use of the tongue.

 

[Minimor]

I was just coming back on to tell you I mentioned this to my mom & she said a friend of hers had a horse that had its tongue bitten off--and that she kept the horse & he did just fine with special care in feeding. So, I was going to say that if a horse with his tongue actually gone can cope, don't give up hope that Neffie can manage too, if you get just the right feeding program for her. That's great to hear that the vet was positive about her future.

I would still assume that there was some sort of trauma involved--don't know what kind would do that much damage and yet it was never noticeable that she had been injured. Some sort of crushing injury that killed the nerves & so wasn't really painful at time of injury? I read through my book and there's nothing about any condition that can affect the tongue this way. The only thing that referred to the mouth being affected was star thistle poisoning, and that of course has other symptoms, not just the tongue problem. And even then, the tongue problem it causes is different than what Neffie has.

As long as this isn't a progressive condition--and that seems unlikely?--maybe you can still show her? On the right feeding program she may very well be in show condition next summer?

 

[Mercysmom]

Our vet mentioned star thistle poisoning but said we don't have it in our area and my girls are on a dry lot.

She is vaccinated regularly and shows no other signs (the veterinarian and I discussed WNV, tetanus, and encephalitis but she said Neffie would be sick and for the amount of time this has been going on, our veterinarian felt she would be dead by now if any of those illnesses were involved). The only thing she has going on is the eating problem due to the tip of her tongue being without feeling - she does everything else she should be doing.

Ben brought up a good point - over the winter she would lick the salt block a lot...every day we would see her at it. It never caused her trauma but she seemed to like it a lot... I suggested to our veterinarian that maybe we could try physical therapy if there was something she could lick but our veterinarian felt that Neffie cannot lick, even if she could try. I have a new Likit refill for my holder in the big girls' stall so I may try that tonight to see if I can get her to try to lick.

Her alfalfa cubes, beet pulp and pellets are soaking now for tonight's dinner.

:

Now if she could only tell me what happened - while she told me she is not ready to go over the Bridge, she is not giving up her secrets.

:

Again, our veterinarian feels she is in good weight - she looks like a racing fit Thoroughbred, conditioned and ready for the show ring (for those who know Mercy and Freedom, they have not missed a meal and Neffie looks thin compared to them). Our veterinarian gave me a chuckle when she said I am lucky it is not a Thoroughbred with this problem as they can be tough to keep weight on without a problem.

I am waiting to hear what Cornell has to say. At the feed store, the lady behind the counter never heard of such a thing, nor did the lady she was helping.

So, with cautious optimism, we will try the change of diet to a slurry to see if that helps. I love this pony a lot - talked to her when her mom was pregnant with her... she whinnied to me when I walked into the barn and she was halfway into this world, ready to go, and I enjoy working with her a lot - she is different from the minis and a lot like my Morgans... or they are a lot like her!

Glad to hear the horse who lost his tongue was able to make it on a dietary change- that gives me hope!

Thanks for all the replies... I am not giving up yet, not as long as she tells me she is doing fine.

Denise

Silversong Farm

 

[MBhorses]

will be praying for your miniature.

:

keep us posted

 

[SHANA]

Sorry to hear about Neffie. Hope she makes a full recovery. If teh worse happens Laura still has 2 modern fillies and Blaze for sale. One filly I believe is a half-sister to Neffie. They fillies are not to expensive.

 

[Sue_C.]

Five years ago, we had a weanling colt suffer an injury that resulted in partial loss of use of his tongue, and lips. He was running around like babies do, and slipped, falling hard, unto his side. He got up and kept running, not looking like any damage was done, but when he finally stopped, I noticed his tongue hanging out the side of his face.

The vet said that he must have hit the nerve under his jaw, either severing it, (wost case senario) or irritating it, and causing it to swell. He put him on antibiotics, in case it was crushed or severed, and antinflamitories in case it was only swollen. Like your filly, it was in the front, but he could move the back of it. Thank heavens he wasn't weaned yet, as he couldn't eat hard food at all, until that tongue would stay in his mouth. I also had to keep wetting it, as he couldn't retract it to keep it moist.

Then it was wait and watch...thankfully, it was only irritated, because in about two weeks, it was back to normal.

Hoping that will be the case with your little one...although it seems to have been like this for awhile.

 

[Fred]

Dee when I was out there she looked a little light but not bad. Most of the modern youngsters I see are in similar weight to yours and they are confined to stalls. This one is out running and playing all day and that does burn up quite a bit of calories. Some young horses also DO require a LOT of feed and you can't judge just which ones will be like that. When I first got Shadow you can't possibly believe how much food he needed. What you said you feed her is not out of line with what her activity level is. Our minis get 2 qts of grain a day and they aren't even working now, and they are in show shape. Heck you and I both have a date to show at Area 1 next year.

 

[picasso]

We had a quarter horse mare about three years ago that had a similar problem with her tongue. It affected her bottom lip also, looked kind of like she had had a stroke. She did the same shoving her mouth down in her feed to get it in her mouth. The vet said she more than likely had her head under the board fence trying to get to the greener grass and paralyzed the nerves that ran down her jaw. You can still see it in her lip, but the eating is better (not just exactly right). She seems to do okay with everything. We still ride her. Good luck with your girl. Will be sending prayers your way.

 

[disneyhorse]

Moderns, from what I have experienced so far, eat a LOT. A LOT. I feed as much feed to my Modern mare (four years old, 43" tall) as the 1,000 lb Andalusian mare in my barn eats.

Also, Modern youngsters up to two go through gawky stages I am told. They don't really mature until four or five, and look awful until they are two for the most part without a lot of conditioning!

Good luck. Moderns are hard(er) to find but certainly not impossible!

Andrea

 

[Mercysmom]

Neffie is eating the wet food - her pellets are now soaked with beet pulp and soaked alfalfa cubes and served in a big bucket. She was dunking her hay in the mix and trying to chomp it all down - not as many quids in her stall this morning and not nearly the amount of "sludge" in her water that she has had.

Our feed store said that they may not have beet pulp shreds due to farmers planting more corn and soybeans...there was enough to go to the feed companies that mix beet pulp in their feeds, so they say. Don't know if anyone else has heard that...I am hoping it is not true. I have a different supplier for the grain I use so I will be checking with him.

She, Indy and the Morgans were playing today now that the weather has cooled down - she was bucking and rearing and tossing her head. She still moves like a dream!

She is now coming to me to go out, rather than struggling to eat the dry pellets, since she is more satisfied. She also holds still to let me wipe the slurry from her face.

Linda, I am definitely planning on Area One, the Worlds and maybe even Congress in 2008....

Glad that other Moderns eat a lot - Neffie is cleaning up all that I put in front of her so I figure that that is a good sign. She eats as much as the Morgan yearlings do.

I called my veterinarian to see if she has heard from Cornell yet and she hasn't - her office staff said they would let me know as soon as they heard something.

I did a little physical therapy on that tongue today - Mercy and the Morgans attacked and broke the honey-chamomile Likit refill I put up a few days ago. There was a chunk out of their reach so I let it sit on Neffie's tongue and had her move it back and forth in her mouth. Maybe this will not do anything but she can try to exercise it and enjoy the taste of the chunk of the Likit.

Thanks for everyone's replies...I am hoping that she gains on this new diet, now that it is not as much work for her to eat.

Denise

Silversong Farm