birth expert opinions sought

[qualabear]

Hi All,

long time no been here. My vet is not back til August 2nd and we have troubles. I am not even so sure I want to see this vet again so here is the scoop.

My mare finally had gone into labor so I ran outside with camera in tow as the foal was presently normally in the dive position. Soon realized this foal was not progressing out so I tried a bit of gentle traction with her pushing....nothing. Phoned my vet who was on another farm call. He instructed me to pull downward as I had already tried and get back to him I then phoned a friend who told me it sounded like a hip lock...by this point the foal had died. I then called my vet to ask if I could meet him part way if it helped, as the mare was still able to stand so he sent another vet to my farm.

2nd vet arrived who was a big guy 180-200lbs and he immediately started pulling very very hard, not downward but straight back with me holding the mares halter/head. I was bothered by his force and without being confrontational just said "OH Dr.#1 said to be pulling downward...." Dr.#2 replied by saying, "well if we don't get this foal out, you are going to lose the mare as well!" - he then proceeded the same thing with chains with no success and then advised me to bring her into the hospital....right - like I could have saved an hour of agony for the poor mare by doing this in the 1st place.

Anyhow the 1st vet came and met the 2nd at the hospital and decided that the foal had a rear leg up in the birth canal. Its body was outside the mare past the ribs so it could not be pushed back in for repositioning and it couldn't be pulled out so they ended up doing a fetotomy (cutting up of the dead foal)

The vet then checked the mare and said she felt cleaned out and he came out to my farm the next morning to do a followup on her.

Two weeks later after noticing an antiseptic but odd odor, a chunk of stinky afterbirth began sticking out. It seemed stuck so I called the vet who said he would come by. Before he got out I had washed the mare and this chunk softened and had come out on its own so I just put it in a bucket for him to examine. I also mentioned to him this odor and that the mare had seemed to be spewing out pee whenever she got beyond a walk. He gave he a shot of antibiotic and advised me to exercise her to help tone her up.

Well it has been 6 weeks now and I have washed this mare several times. She is starting to get skin breakdown from urine constantly dripping on the hind legs so I have washed and coated her legs with udder budder to provide a barrier. I just called the vet clinic and the horse vet is away til the start of August now.

I am wondering if the vets actually damaged her bladder either from excessive pulling or the fetotomy. Does this sound like it is going to mean more surgery? Has anyone had anything similar? Should I wait for this vet to return? What approach should I take and should I be heading to the next town to find another vet? I would really appreciate some feedback - especially from those who breed a lot.

Thank you

 

[nootka]

I am really sorry for what you've been through.

I had my first difficult birth this year, and the foal was as you describe. I was alone and have no vet nearby, so my option would have been to try and load the mare and get her to my vet, who is about an hour away, IF I could get her up.

I tugged and tugged, downward, etc. and even braced myself against her "cheeks" to pull. I was pulling so hard at one time that the mare was being drug over the straw.

He would not come out. What ended up working was that I grabbed the colt by the shoulders and gave him a quarter turn. He slid free like a cork with lots of pressure behind. Mine made it, but I am sure just barely.

it sounds like the vets really let you down, but most of all this mare.

I don't know everything about these things, as I am not a vet, but it seems like what I've heard in these situations is that they flush the mare as well as put her on antibiotics. It also sounds like they missed the fact that the placenta was not complete (I would imagine this is fairly common in a rough birth).

Perhaps her bladder was damaged or she has nerve damage, I have heard of other hard births that resulted in these conditions.

I am guessing you should find other vets if you can. I don't even know what else to tell you other than keep trying to find her some competent help. I'm so sorry for what you and she have been through and sorry you lost your foal.

(I am no expert, either, just offering my own observations).

I do have several phone numbers for experienced mini breeders that I keep handy for when I'm on foal watch. IME, they know how to coach you through a tough situation while waiting for the vet or when you can't get ahold of a vet.

Liz M.

 

[Reble]

Sounds like she should be checked, flushed and antibiotics for sure :new_shocked:

I wonder if you could use vinegar in warm water and try syringing fluids in her vulva to help clean her untill you get a Vet out. Maybe a shot of Penicillin for the next 5 days would be OK. Hope you can get a vet to check her soon.

Hope someone else can give a suggestion.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Vingar is very acidic, and can damage the sensitive linings of the vagina. I certainly wouldn't put that in her!

What the vets did sounds pretty correct to me, as far as it was described. Yes, it is possible for HER to have damaged her urethra, and should be relatively easy for a vet to figure out what was damaged, and hopefully correct it.

 

[qualabear]

Thanks so far. I am not saying my 1st vet was incompetent but I was unsure whether vet #2 should have been pulling so hard on an already dead foal. I tried to read and did a search on bladder damage and birth but all articles just talk about it in the foal.

It seems to me that pulling at an awkward angle would be more likely to cause that sort of damage than a mare pushing. I am thankful yes, that I came home with my mare still alive, but I felt sort of left dangling about answers to leakage. Also I don't think a vet would be too quick to admit a procedure performed as the cause another problem which is why I am seeking opinions, and yes I do agree that maybe the mare could've done it.

I am a little disappointed the way I was told she was cleaned out...it was not she seems to be cleaned out and to have my questions about urine kind of brushed off for another visit.

I agree that the vinegar might burn - especially since she has skin breakdown.

Nootka yes - good idea to have all numbers handy as it is sure hard to think under that sort of stress.

 

[R Whiteman]

We had a little mare foal just as yours did, but I was not there and found her in the morning. She was a maiden, did not have a bag, and was at 309 days. She had given up trying to have her baby, a lovely sorrel and white pinto filly, and was patiently waiting for her breakfast when I found her. I tried as you did to deliver the rest of the foal and quickly found that it was not going to happen. I called two vets, and a new one showed up and it was in the treatment of this little mare that we developed a relationship that will last until we have no horses, or he retires. Three of us worked on this mare trying everything short of cutting up the foal. We talked about options, none good, and kept working. Finally I found a noose used for pulling lambs (we had tried several other instruments, no room) and we were able to push back the hind foot and deliver the foal. It took two hours AFTER we found the mare. Of course, our main concern was the mare, but as the vet turned to get something in his truck, she popped to her feet and began eating grass. She was lucky and delivered her placenta, which was whole. We flushed her twice because we had "invaded her space". I think the reason we were so lucky is because we did not have to do anything very radicle. But my point is that she too was several months recovering from the bladder issues she suffered after. Pressure on her bladder left her unable to hold anything, and I, like you, spent a lot of money on desitin and other zinc oxide ointments. Over time she got better, and only had issues when she trotted or cantered and eventually after a couple of months, she gained back all her muscle tone. We had her thoroughly checked and gave her two years off and rebred her. This year she had a really nice sorrel and white colt and did the whole delivery in 5 minutes from water breaking to foal on the ground. Don't give up on your mare, if you can get her through the placenta issues, there is a good chance that the bladder issues may resolve themselves.

 

[qualabear]

Oh, does that ever make me feel more hopeful - thank you for sharing!

 

[Minimor]

Well, in the first place I am horrified that the attending vet didn't bother to check for that hind foot. My goodness, when a foal is stuck like that it's pretty much one of two things--hip lock or a hind foot forward. I had that exact problem this past spring. It took me all of 5 seconds to check & determine that there was a hind foot forward...and I have never ever had to deal with dystocia before. I do not have a degree in vet medicine...had I checked & found no foot I would have treated it as hip lock but with that hind foot forward it's quite a different matter. I immediately called the vet and while waiting for her did try to push the foal back. It was impossible. Vet arrived, had a try, also found pushing him back to be impossible, so she removed him in pieces (he was dead well before she arrived, and she was no slouch at getting here). She absolutely did not attempt to pull him with that hind foot forward. Once he was cut up & eviscerated, she freed the foot and then did have to use chains as that was the only way we could get a grip on the remains to pull him out.

If the vet did not check to see if there was a hind foot forward before attempting to pull that foal...or if he did check & knew the foot was forward & proceeded to try and pull that foal anyway--either way, I would have to say I do not consider that correct protocol.

Our mare cleaned okay but did require flushing, and then I gave her penicillin "douches" for several days and she came through fine.

The urine leaking thing your mare has could, I think, be one of two things. It's possible that the chunk of retained placenta has caused an infection that has spread to her bladder. The other possibility is that the attempt to pull the foal did cause some nerve damage--or some sort of scarring that affects the mare's ability to control urine flow. If infection is the problem, antibiotics should be helpful in clearing up the problem. If it's nerve damage or scarring, the mare may require surgery. However, it's also possible that the damage is too extensive, and surgical repair is impossible.

I know this because a friend had a similar situation. Her little mare had a very bad dystocia--foal was coming withers first--vet got the head up (foal was dead by then) but in trying to get the front feet instead the vet got hold of a hind foot &--thinking it was a front one--pulled it right off in trying to get it up into position. I'm not just sure how they finally got the foal out, but it did come out. The little mare was in pretty bad shape--healed up without infection, but she was left squirting urine plus had problems using one hind leg. I think the hind leg finally came right, but it took quite awhile. The urine problem, though, still plagues her. She had an equine specialist check the mare, in hopes that he could do surgery and correct the problem. Unfortunately there was too much scarring, and not enough good tissue left to work with if he did surgery to remove the scar tissue. This filly still dribbles urine and sometimes, I think, squirts it out when she runs. Her rear end tends to be a mess and obviously any clean up attempts are very temporary. The way the vet talked, the urine could eventually cause further problems, chronic infection & such, and there'd come a time when the mare would be so much worse that she'd have to be euthanized. It's been a few years now and I think the mare is actually a little better rather than worse, but the problem is still there.

Hopefully your mare isn't that bad and will just need a good course of antibiotics and a bit of time & her problem will go away.

I would have to be pretty darned desperate for a vet before I'd EVER use that one that attempted to pull your foal that way. sorry, Nathan, but sometimes the vet is in the wrong.

 

[Shaladar]

Hi,

I had this happen with a mare last year. The foal was hip-locked and we got him out (he was unresponsive, but we revived him). She dribbled urine for a couple of weeks, especially when running (then it gushed out) and when we lost him at 3 weeks, (heart defect) I decided to show her, so started working her. The urine was still dribbling out when she trotted, but every day it got better. I think by 6-8 weeks she was able to control it. I did like you and washed her daily and put udder butter/desitin where she was getting scalded.

I had this happen before back when I had Quarter Horses, and that mare recovered.

But if your mare is still gushing out urine at 6 weeks post foaling, I would probably have a different Vet take a look at her.

And to have a piece of placenta left in there for 2 weeks? Wow, you are lucky (as I'm sure you know

: ) that she survived that!! Strong mare . But I've had that happen in the past too..(Quarter Horse). I stood right there and watched the Vet flush out her uterus several times, for several days, and yet, she had a teeny-tiny piece way up in a horn that didn't get flushed out. Unfortunatly, she foundered in all 4 and died.

Good luck with your girl!!

Sue

 

[qualabear]

I think my vet sent out this other vet (the one who did the pulling) because he himself could not make it out in time to help me. The vet doing the pulling mostly does dogs and cats.

So far as my mare not foundering (by some miracle) I think it was only because so much surgical soap went into her and I did give her antibiotic injections over the next week. She smells now but it seems moreso for the urine on her legs than coming from her vagina.

Oh yeah, I asked the vet right after the procedure if minis were that much more prone to birthing problems and he said "not at all" Yes - vets can be wrong cuz that statement is sure not fact! oooh the stories I have now heard

 

[Taya]

I have no medical advice but just wanted to say I hope your poor mare is ok and has a speedy recovery!!

Take care

 

[Miniv]

Not being present it's hard to say if the vet was correct or not.........but by your description, it sounds rather scarey. However, by the time the vet arrived, your foal was probably past saving, I'm afraid.

Next thing.........Your mare definitely needs a series of uterine flushes. There is no question. It is a fairly simple procedure and if your MAIN vet is open to it, he may even teach you. If you are willing, you should ask him if your can at least "help".

I suspect that the bladder problem will correct itself as she heals, but be sure to pick your vet's brains about that.

I'm just so sorry you wound up in such a horrific situation....... I also hope your mare is doing okay with all of this emotionally as well.......

MA

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Vets can and are wrong.

I would be looking for a new practise as, I am sorry, but this one has let you down.

Why on earth would you lose the mare if the baby is not got out??

Unless the mare is still having contractions there is no reason on earth why the whole thing cannot stay put until a course of correct procedure is agreed upon, and pulling in line with the body is NOT correct procedure!!

This second man did not appear to know what he was doing- basically he should have loaded your mare up and taken her to someone who did.

BUT all the resultant damage could well have happened anyway, that is the only "good" news here.

You need the mare back on a long, low dose of antibiotics to prevent recurrent infection, you need long term nursing care- which you are already giving admirably and you need- Yes mind boggle at the thought BUT you need to get the mare back in foal.

Mares are designed to be in foal, it is a natural state for them.

If she is infoal all the other stuff will clear up.

Of course I do mean after a full Vet check to make sure there is no internal damage that may contra indicate pregnancy.

First and foremost you need at the very least to have a long hard talk with your Vet.

I could not work with a Vet who is "away until August"- that is lunacy, what are the horse supposed to do, not have an emergency til August????

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Uhm... no? Getting the mare back in foal may be the WORST thing to do, if the damage caused problems with the normal system. If things are torn and damaged she may not be ABLE to get in foal. First figure out what the problem is, how to fix it, and see if she can carry again, THEN try. Dystocias aren't always flukes... if there was a serious dystocia I'd want to know exactly what happened and what the chances are of it happening again. If its a conformational fault (narrow hips for example) then it may happen again and again.

It is VERY common to loose the mare as well as the foal in a serious dystocia, and if it goes as far as doing a fetotomy the fertility of the mare decreases dramatically (for two reasons, the trama involved with the procedure as well as the conditions which made the fetotomy nessesary). To have saved the mare is no mean feat. The survival rate is reasonably good, but the death rate is pretty high too, so to say that they saved the mare isn't an understatement.

 

[qualabear]

Someone else also advised breeding her again - said I would likely never get her in foal again if I didn't but I would agree with you Nathan on this.

First I wouldn't have the heart or nerve to do it with her- for a while anyhow, and wouldn't having a few normal heats clean them out somewhat?

I do think the presentation of the foal was fluke - although a few here have told experiences the same - it must've been to get a rear leg up like that.

Anyhow thank you all for your input and well wishes. It is very helpful to be able to ask questions here and hear from other people with minis and experiences. I do not have a lot of horses - 6

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Nathan could you PLEASE just take the time to READ the posts instead of just scanning them ??

I do have actual experience of this situation, and, if you read my advice, I do say

" Of course I do mean after a full Vet check to make sure there is no internal damage that may contra indicate pregnancy."

So UHM, Nathan, once more you are not correct.

Getting the mare back in foal may actually be a really good thing, as my Vet at the time, who was the foremost in his field of Obstetrics in the world, advised.

AFTER a FULL examination to determine that there was no damage.

OF COURSE!!!!

I really do get tired of this sort of thing.

 

[MBhorses]

:no: i am so sorry for your loss foal. I will be praying for your mare.

keep us posted.

 

[qualabear]

Thank you MB. I will post as soon as she is seen again. AM hoping for more hot weather tomorrow so I can take her to the beach and soak her legs a bit to clean her up again. She seems peppy and happy so thats good. PS She is the appy in my avatar.

to put a sweet little face to your prayers