Backing up in harness

[Marsha Cassada]

I am having a hard time getting Dusty to back up with the cart. He KNOWS what to do but he's very resistant. I try backing just one step at a time. He resists but he does it. Then I try him 3 or 4 steps. He won't back straight and he really resists.

Because of his conformation we do quite a lot of backing in ground excercises to get him to build up his hind end.

If I make him back in the cart with the halter, standing in front of him, he backs fine. But he won't accept the command to back up from the bit readily.

Any ideas?? A helper might be nice: me in the cart and the helper standing in front to reinforce the command. But I don't have a helper.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Two things- 1) How does he back when ground-driving but not hitched? Does he understand what the rein command means without a person in front of him?

and 2) If the answer to 1 is "just fine," then consider that one difference between you being in the cart and you standing in front of him is that you are NOT IN THE CART. That's a lot less weight for him to move backwards so of course he's more willing! You're still using the sulky, right? Are you using breeching with that? Assuming you aren't and he does fine when ground-driving this sounds like a classic case of the horse objecting to moving the loaded cart back by the saddle.

Now I'll admit those are a couple of BIG assumptions.

If he isn't backing well from the bit, that's your first problem. If he does and he'll back the unloaded cart but not the loaded and you don't have breeching, sounds like it's time to get some.

Let us know some of those variables and we can talk about how to transition a horse from backing off of body posture to backing from the reins.

Leia

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Thanks for replying!

Dusty has been in the regular cart for about 3 months. He does have breeching.

I can't tell if it is the loaded cart he resists, or the bit command. You may remember I had some questions about his "short mouth" and the bit. The backing issue is one reason I had questions about it.

When I stand in front and ask him to back, he will. But if I stand in front and push back on the reins/bit with my hands and ask him to back, he resists.

He seems fine with the bit and I think it is laying in his mouth properly. I've had several knowledgable horse folks check it for fit.

Maybe I need to tighten the breeching so it "engages" sooner. If it is too loose, he may be objecting to the saddle taking too much of the load?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Maybe I need to tighten the breeching so it "engages" sooner. If it is too loose, he may be objecting to the saddle taking too much of the load?

Quite possible. The breeching should come into play just as the traces loosen so that the tug straps barely swing forward or back before chest and rump are taking the load. We don't want the straps to be so tight they make the horse feel trapped but I picture it like a trapeze act- one part swings forward and the next is right there to take up the load with perfect timing.

You don't say how he is when you stand behind him and ask him to back without a cart but it sounds like Dusty simply doesn't understand what you're asking. He doesn't see the rein pressure as a cue, he sees it as someone hauling on his mouth and of course he hauls back in frustration. Do you use a verbal cue for backing? If it were my horse I think I'd put him in the blinker bridle then stand at his shoulder facing forward and softly lift one rein at a time (in front of his withers, not through the terrets) to ask him to give to pressure. I'd play with getting him to first give his nose to each side, then slowly progress to stepping his shoulder over, pivoting on the forehand, sidepassing a little bit, anything he wanted to offer in response to the lightest possible pressure. Any movement would get an immediate release and praise until it's clear he's beginning to understand the game. It's not hard to turn that sort of experimenting into taking a step backwards, for which of course you'd promptly praise the living daylights out of him. Use his verbal command and encourage him to repeat that step back with one rein and the outside rein merely containing him if he's ready for that. Stay soft! Don't worry if he's moving sideways too or spinning his butt as long as he's shifting his weight to the rear and moving his feet. Most horses I've met could go from total resistance to backing at least a few steps off a rein cue in one session when handled like this.

The problem is you're trying to force him backwards with the reins and as you know, you're never going to win a battle with a horse.

Make it easy and fun for him and help him connect the action he takes from your body language with the same action from a soft and inviting rein cue. Use the verbal cue as your bridge, the thing that both cues have in common, and look for the tiniest action to reward. Both of my horses will back up straight beside me at complete liberty and all I did to train it was shape small indications of movement and reward, reward, reward. They think it's fun and in Turbo's case that should be easy to translate to driving as long as I make sure he understands each step from one cue (my body language) to another (the reins when he can't see me.) If I put him in an open bridle first and gently add the rein cue to what he already knows it should be easy to wean him onto only the rein cue.

Just be patient with Dusty and when you ask again in the cart, go back to accepting the smallest effort at first! He'll get the idea.

Leia

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Thanks, Leia. I will put the blinders on him next time and do the flex excercise. I bet that will help him.

 

[shalamara minis]

I had one that would back any time except when hooked to the cart. He would even back when I was standing in front on him and hooked to the cart. It turned out that when I was in the cart he would start to back until he felt the presuure of the cart and then stop. What I did to fix this was, I asked him to back and then stuck a foot out of the cart and helped push it back taking the presure off him. After a couple of weeks he backed in the cart just fine.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Had some help today. We did the flexing excercise. I used the blinders. Adjusted the breeching.

She watched me driving, then I watched her. She helped me with some posture issues. Also helped me break down the backing process into smaller steps.

It was fun to watch someone driving Dusty; I think he looks really nice in the cart!

Thanks for the help, everyone.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I am having a hard time getting Dusty to back up with the cart. He KNOWS what to do but he's very resistant. I try backing just one step at a time. He resists but he does it. Then I try him 3 or 4 steps. He won't back straight and he really resists.

Because of his conformation we do quite a lot of backing in ground excercises to get him to build up his hind end.

If I make him back in the cart with the halter, standing in front of him, he backs fine. But he won't accept the command to back up from the bit readily.

Any ideas?? A helper might be nice: me in the cart and the helper standing in front to reinforce the command. But I don't have a helper.

Backing up in a cart takes a lot of strength from the horse and I would not be using it to build up muscle until after he already has built up some muscle. Try hill work to build up strength in his back end and once you have that strength then backing will be easier for him. Backing up is actually a forward movement. You don't ask a horse to back by pulling backwards on the reins. For a proper, unresisting backup you need to ask him to step forward into an ungiving rein. He should tuck his nose in putting his weight onto his back end which will make things easier for him as he can use the strength of his back legs and buttocks to move the weight of you and the cart rather than his unconnected front legs and chest. For the first few times it is easiest to do this while standing the horse uphill on a slight slope - not a hill that might pull him backwards from the weight of the cart thus frightening him, but a slight slope. Once you are facing uphill on the slope ask him to step forward with a kiss and close your hands around the reins even firmer than you would for a whoa. He should tuck his nose into his chest and back. If his nose gets up in the air which hollows his back and locks his hind end he will NOT be able to back. If he does this stop asking for forward movement, allow him to settle, wiggle your reins to encourage him to drop his nose and ask again. The cart will roll easily backwards down the slope so that he will not require nearly as much strength to move it. As he moves backwards reward him with a release of the pressure. You can ask for one step at a time with a whoa in between but it is better to allow him to give you several steps so that the lightbulb can come on and he can grasp what it is you are asking for. If you ask him to whoa after one step he could be confused as to whether or not it was a back up you wanted. Once he is backing consistantly without resistance on the slope you can carry it over to flat ground. Don't ask for too many backups in any one session as it is tough work for him and you will only make him sore and unhappy and resistant and nice backups will go out the window again!

 

[Carole]

Backing up in a cart takes a lot of strength from the horse and I would not be using it to build up muscle until after he already has built up some muscle. Try hill work to build up strength in his back end and once you have that strength then backing will be easier for him. Backing up is actually a forward movement. You don't ask a horse to back by pulling backwards on the reins. For a proper, unresisting backup you need to ask him to step forward into an ungiving rein. He should tuck his nose in putting his weight onto his back end which will make things easier for him as he can use the strength of his back legs and buttocks to move the weight of you and the cart rather than his unconnected front legs and chest. For the first few times it is easiest to do this while standing the horse uphill on a slight slope - not a hill that might pull him backwards from the weight of the cart thus frightening him, but a slight slope. Once you are facing uphill on the slope ask him to step forward with a kiss and close your hands around the reins even firmer than you would for a whoa. He should tuck his nose into his chest and back. If his nose gets up in the air which hollows his back and locks his hind end he will NOT be able to back. If he does this stop asking for forward movement, allow him to settle, wiggle your reins to encourage him to drop his nose and ask again. The cart will roll easily backwards down the slope so that he will not require nearly as much strength to move it. As he moves backwards reward him with a release of the pressure. You can ask for one step at a time with a whoa in between but it is better to allow him to give you several steps so that the lightbulb can come on and he can grasp what it is you are asking for. If you ask him to whoa after one step he could be confused as to whether or not it was a back up you wanted. Once he is backing consistantly without resistance on the slope you can carry it over to flat ground. Don't ask for too many backups in any one session as it is tough work for him and you will only make him sore and unhappy and resistant and nice backups will go out the window again!

 

[Carole]

In a recent clinic with Bob Giles, he instructed us to back up at home in training ONLY on a slope, where the horse feels no resistance. Gets the impression in their horsey brain that backing is easy. And each time you ask for the rein back, step forward immediately. Practice the rein back sparingly, so not to sour the experience. So when the horse is asked to back in competition, he will comply without hestitation. This seems to actually work

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I will try the slope idea. I have several areas on my property where I could try that. It also seemed effective to do the flexing first. I was doing some lateral stretches, but that wasn't quite the same as flexing.

The bearings on my cart need replacing so I will have to wait till I get my cart fixed to work on the new techniques.

 

[jleonard]

I'm enjoying following this thread as I'll be driving a practice test in a few weeks that calls for you to back for 3 meters!

That seems like a football field for a mini to back, lol. I'm not even sure the horse I'm taking does back, so I'll likely be using some of these tips in the near future.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Flexing exercises are good too, but just to clarify for lurkers the exercise I was describing was less for flexing the body and more for introducing the concept of giving to the bit and connecting the bit to the feet in the horse's mind. Once they understand I will make the exercise more controlled and start asking for specific things with specific cues in-hand until it truly is a flexing/suppling exercise for the body.

I'm enjoying following this thread as I'll be driving a practice test in a few weeks that calls for you to back for 3 meters!

That seems like a football field for a mini to back, lol. I'm not even sure the horse I'm taking does back, so I'll likely be using some of these tips in the near future.

Oh dear, that's almost 10ft!

Seems like they ought to be willing to scale that down for the minis. After all, the test specifies a 40 meter circle too and we don't do those in a 20x40 arena.

Leia

 

[Marsha Cassada]

My dressage dil helped me with that flexing excercise. She showed me how to stand beside him with the reins not in the terrets and get him to give and flex. The purpose, she explained to me, was to let him relax his poll and neck, as backing is difficult and uncomfortable if the poll and neck are rigid. When I read your description in your post, Leia, I don't know if I would have actually done it correctly without someone to show me hands-on.

She has a lippizan and always has to smile when she stands by my little guys, looking at their little necks, little polls, little everything. But, big or little they all work the same.

 

[jleonard]

Oh dear, that's almost 10ft!

Seems like they ought to be willing to scale that down for the minis. After all, the test specifies a 40 meter circle too and we don't do those in a 20x40 arena.

Leia

It's only a fun day with our driving club. We get to drive a practice dressage test and cones course so that we can get feedback. I don't know if they will adjust anything for me, but hey, it's just practice. It also calls for you to drive almost the entire test in a collected trot, it may just take me all day!

I have used these flexing exercises on my riding horses (one super stiff pony in particular who hates backing). They really do help them learn to give to the bit, and it's great for loosening them up as well.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

My dressage dil helped me with that flexing excercise. She showed me how to stand beside him with the reins not in the terrets and get him to give and flex. The purpose, she explained to me, was to let him relax his poll and neck, as backing is difficult and uncomfortable if the poll and neck are rigid. When I read your description in your post, Leia, I don't know if I would have actually done it correctly without someone to show me hands-on.

Yeah, I know it was a little fuzzy. The problem is I do so much of my training by feel!

I watch the horse and follow what they're offering until it all comes together. It's a little hard to describe how to do it in concrete steps when it's different for each horse and there really is no set order of movements that must be followed.

Flexing is a different thing and is what you do when you've already taught the horse the rein cues. Now THAT I could describe clearly if asked to!

And it does exactly what your dil and JLeonard describe. I'm glad to hear those are helping and that Dusty is getting it.

It also calls for you to drive almost the entire test in a collected trot, it may just take me all day!

Geez, some "practice!"

People don't usually start with the Intermediate level tests....

Leia

 

[jleonard]

Geez, some "practice!"

People don't usually start with the Intermediate level tests....

Leia

Hehe

Apparently the lady putting it on is known for choosing strange tests and comes from the pleasure driving world from what I was told yesterday. It's the same test for everyone.

 

[Sue_C.]

Oh dear, that's almost 10ft! Seems like they ought to be willing to scale that down for the minis. After all, the test specifies a 40 meter circle too and we don't do those in a 20x40 arena.

So far, the driving shows we frequent, and the one training CDE I have done, the minis have performed the same test in the same arena as the "big guys". I like it, as you really get to have a chance to show off the movement of your horse, but it is a distict advantage ocver the larger horses, so is really unfair.

As for the back up, we commonly have long back throughs in our driven obstacle classes, sometimes even backing up through an "L"...that is hard at first until you have done it a couple of times.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Got the new bearings in my wheels last night so Dusty went back to work in harness today. Started with 2 miles ponied behind Dapper Dan, then some stretches and flexing. I tried the backing on a slight incline and it worked very well! Asking him to walk forward immediately on the incline after the back did not seem to be a problem. I think we are making progress.

So:

adjusting the breeching so it engages quicker

flexing excercises to relax the neck and poll

using a slight incline

(the foot-out-to-help idea was interesting, but I dont' think I am coordinated enough to make it work in my ee runabout. I have used it in the sulky, though)

Thanks, everyone!