Anyone else get an email from Martha Hickham

[Belinda]

Have it your way but my husband and our friends were there. And Belinda you know who we got Blaze from. Enough said.

LOL !! Ok,, first let me say I am not sure what Champion Farm Blaze ( who was sired by Redboy) and is a sound under 34" horse has to do with ,, Actually you have owned him a long time , and second you did purchase him from Willa and Phil Marks ??? So to answer your question Yes I do know who you got him from!

I am not wanting to turn this into a big debate , but again,, What and who makes you think the AMHA was the first Miniature horse Reg.. The B divison of AMHR was formed in 1986 with the help of Bob Huston, My father and couple of others..

Here is a text taken right from AMHA website..

Founded in 1978, AMHA promotes the breeding, use and perpetuation of a standard of equine excellence in miniature, separate and apart from ponies and other small equids. Horses registered with AMHA must meet the Association standard of perfection and cannot exceed 34 inches in height at the withers as measured from the last hairs of the mane.

The AMHR Divison of the Shetland Pony Club was founded in 1971-- by Several including Mr. Bond, Bob Huston, Geroge Heart, Bert Zuegue, Bill Ferguson, Alton Freeman, Alan Goforth, Billy Howell , Russel Jackson, Ray Lee, Delmer Moody, Earl Bud Soats.

 

[Gypsygal]

What about the horses that are shown at AMHR in the over 34" and are registered as "B" minis but are then shown and registered with AMHA as under 34". I actually bought a mare that was guaranteed to be 33 1/4" - had her shipped to me (I was not smart enough to look at both sets of papers - just the AMHA papers). Figured since she had shown AMHA for a complete season that there should not be a problem. THis mare was almost 35" - no matter how we measured her. Now I have a mare who is over and when I contacted the seller they said they could get her to measure under and proceeded to tell me how. They showed both AMHA and AMHR and at the time they got better results with her in the over class at AMHR so they let her show her real height there.

I pulled her AMHA papers. After the expense of shipping her and knowing the battle I would have - I let it go. When I called AMHA they said that they did not care what the horse measured for AMHR.

Not real impressed with that response. I get the feeling that I would still get the same response. AMHA has lost a lot of money over the years from us not registering our babies within AMHA - all but a few could have been.

AMHA you had better start looking around and seeing what and who you are losing before it is to late.

Gypsygal

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

.. The B divison of AMHR was formed in 1986 with the help of Bob Huston, My father and couple of others..

Wow really? That is pretty cool to have family who was a part of such a (well imo anyway) great decision and to be able to see it go from an idea to the wonderful competitive division it is today.. pretty neat!

 

[Margo_C-T]

I would like to add some comments...

First- I suspect that 'Dorrie and Frank" meant to say that the B DIVISION of AMHR was formed 'out of frustration with the A group not allowing over 34'; I well remember when that occurred. The AMHR was formed in 1972, the AMHA, in 1978. The B(now 'Over')division of AMHR did not come along until around 13-16 years ago, give or take.

I did not just fall off the turnip truck; I am only too aware that this is very likely a matter of 'whose ox was being gored'...I have seen the letter writer in line to be measured at a show holding horses which in my experienced opinion were over 34"; but when the envelope has been pushed, and pushed, and PUSHED some more, and someone other than some of us small potatoes finds themself in the position many of the 'ordinary' members/exhibitors have found themselves in--that is, actually being held to the rules when others weren't, and/or finding oneself in a class with horses CLEARLY not 'legal' for the class--well, then the shoe may get moved over onto the other foot-you think?? Even so, though, this IS something that has long needed to be brought forth, by someone who significant numbers of others,including the 'powers that be', *might* actually listen to! (I would add-I believe it is equally reprehensible to mismeasure to 'fit' horses into 'desired' classes as it is to 'enable' them to compete at all when they are patently OVERSIZED by AMHA's rules for ANY class!)

To 'go back to' something resembling accurate measurement ONLY in response to the protests, so that(as someone already said), if you weren't one of 'the hunted', your TALL horse still ended up being allowed to show, while others measured out(as they should have, if they are too tall)-- made the whole situation EVEN MORE of a travesty! I believe that this really is NOT on the shoulders of the measurers; It is my opinion that they are only doing what the top eschelon of 'management' at AMHA has indicated that they wish them to do--and by this example, made clear that they would also 'tolerate' at local shows. I have refused to attend the measurement at our local show for several years now. When the measurement travesty is so blatantly being tolerated at the National(World) level, why would anyone think that there would be ANY support from the parent organization for those who try to 'buck the trend' by protest or otherwise at the local level? Believe me, there IS a LOT of pressure to 'accomodate' trainers/'important' owners, even at local shows-and if the show as a whole fears the loss of these 'important' entries--well, how far do you think one 'ordinary person' is going to get in protest??

As for mininik asking Tony if he filed a protest? I think probably one should have been filed, to be frank--BUT,I don't believe there are any CURRENT RULES against the horses being stood with their legs splayed sideways-so, how much success does anyone think such an action would have had? VERY sad to say, those who would cheat apparently stay up nights coming up with ways to circumvent the rules, in ways that those who would NOT cheat would NEVER even have conceived! In our area, we used to have to watch someone with a VERY TALL "AMHA" mare first stretch her, then the handler place the mare's head on her shoulder, and quite literally point the mare's nose to the sky,at measurements--when the rules specifically BARRING such machinations went into effect, the mare of course measured out-something the owners did not take with good grace, BTW, because they had been 'getting by with it' for so long-BUT, it does show that rules, when ENFORCED, can and do, work.

(And kaykay, I agree with you 110%; the GROSS HYPOCRISY of AMHA in their ENDLESS pronouncements about "34" and under" as the legal size, while not only allowing, but 'promoting'through National winner status, horses that PLAINLY are NOT 'legal' in size according to THEIR OWN rules, has for years now, and increasingly, just made me want to PUKE! I have lost a LOT of respect for an organization I that I have a 23 year history with because of it...I wonder if that's how they want their 'rank and file' membership to feel?

IMO, this letter may have come from a 'less than perfect' source, but it contains MUCH that needed saying right out....so I'll take it, in hopes that it will be a much-needed first step toward cleaning up AMHA's management and practices before so many members lose faith that the organization is destroyed...which I believe could VERY WELL happen. AMHA seems bent on destroying ITSELF!

Sorry I'm so long-winded(as you all already know, I'm sure!), but I just said what I felt I HAD to say.

Margo

 

[Marty]

OK let me get this straight:

I should buy a knock out horse, pay a fabulous trainer all kinds of money, spend thousands campaigning him for this?

I think not.

What ever happend to having FUN at horse shows?

There was another so called high profile controversial horse that the owner and trainer left unmeasured standing in the stall. I wonder why? Does the word guilty sound familiar. If the shoe fits, wear it.

No the word guilty doesn't sound familiar but the word jealousy does. And for the record, he knows what he can do with his shoes.

 

[skylineminis]

The problem with measuring at the withers is that some of our own stewards have a hard time finding the withers!

In my opinion, if they can't find or know where the withers are, why are they being used for measuring? Seems to me they should be reading books and trying to find the different parts of the horse. I think you meant this as a joke. Hope so.

I think the idea of changing the rule to measure at the point of withers was addressed before and to have that done, it would be a By-Laws change that would somehow have to go into a bunch of red tape to have it done. Don't remember the details and like someone mentioned, it would put a huge database in error. All of the horses, dead or alive, would have to be remeasured. There is no failsafe formula that I know of that would be close to what the horse could measure without remeasuring all.

 

[skylineminis]

I would like to give one a warning. If you are not one of the "elete few", if you protest a horse, you have the chance to be black balled in the miniature horse world. I won't go into detail but, I say this from my experience and a few others that dared to "do what's right for everyone". It's sad but reprocussions are serious and can ruin your chances of ever doing anything in the show ring again.

If you ever decide to take the plunge and do a protest for right and wrong, be aware of the cost. It will/can happen to you, too.

 

[gatorbait4sure]

If the "New Rule" goes into effect, and we can be protested up to two hours AFTER a show, does this mean we all must stay for two extra hours AFTER the show is finished, just in case? OR if we get a call from someone in charge of this, do we need to return to the show site to be remeasured?

 

[Becky]

If the "New Rule" goes into effect, and we can be protested up to two hours AFTER a show, does this mean we all must stay for two extra hours AFTER the show is finished, just in case?

I know that that BOD is working now to resolve this problem. It has been suggested that the time be shortened to 15 minutes (?) after a show instead of 2 hours.

 

[sfmini]

Ok, I was going to stay quiet, but can't.

We discussed tabling the rule for the concerns mentioned by Dru. Do you really want to be forced to remain on the show grounds 2 hours after your last class? I think not, I think you will want to go home.

We are NOT against tightening up the measuring rules, we are FOR making the measuring more accurate. There was not a board member in our meeting who spoke against the need for a good rule. We all agree there is a problem and we need to address it. Local show managers need to address it as well.

The measurer for the world show is non political. She does not own or show miniature horses. As a matter of fact, she was Judy's 4-H advisor a hundred years ago.

I do resent a blanket statement that the board got special treatment in measuring. That has sure never happened to me, and I know it hasn't happened to other board members that I know.

I do own an AMHR national top ten B horse who shows AMHA now. He was 2, and was a hair over 33". Still is as a mature horse, making him an A in both registries.

The originator of the rule (one of the 'big' guns) agreed with the decision as the 2 hour part of the rule was NOT part of the proposal. The intent and desire was to allow protesting the height after a horse shows. Also to eliminate the little game of getting youth to show those questionable horses early in the show before people get there and notice the height issue. After all, once the horse has shown, right now it is home free. Youth division included.

What the board did was to create a sub committee of board members AND the originator of the rule to come up with a solid, enforceable rule.

Our November teleconference to be held in a few weeks will have this measuring issue as a main topic and we hope to have something solid to take forward to the membership at the annual meeting.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Measuring at the withers will not solve the problem, you can train horses to shrink down, I had an open jumper 'pony' with a perm. pony card that was 14.2 1/2. She always measured under due to a former owner training her to shrink as the stick comes down, and you could not see her do it!

As for the person who will boycott AMHA in favor of AMHR if AMHA closes hardshipping. Ummm, you mean you will show in the registry that closed hardshipping a few years ago and no longer allows it? I am afraid I don't follow the logic on that one.

 

[LaVern]

Just wondering, Was there any height protests at Nationals this past year? Anybody heard. Renee- Lucky Hart Ranch

 

[Cathy_H]

Ok give every judge a stick to carry around in each class. Anytime there is a question about oversize, the judge can wave the stick over the horse, then ask the horse to be taken out for remeasuring............... Most people won't be put into these embarassing situations & turn around at the gate................ BUT since there are judges that are pals with certain trainers/exhibitors this won't work either. Also this would lengthen the time a class takes to be judged for awhile anyway until people got the message................. If officials won't enforce & the stewards either don't know how to measure or takes their misguided cue from the officials then someone has to be the bad guy........ By the way if someone doesn't do their job correctly & by the rules aren't they usually fired?............................ Edited to ask - why can't a judge protest an overheight horse? They didn't HAVE to place those oversize horses! Goes to show everyone is on the same page being told to do the same thing. This could stop with the judges decision if they had a mind to - but this too boils down to $$$$$$$$'s for them.

 

[sdmini]

I heard this years World was a Witch Hunt, that some of the horses were made to stand underneath themselves instead of standing square. Doing so is going to bunch that shoulder up and make them measure taller. This comes from someone who is quite versed in the miniature world and did not have a protested horse.

We are a height registry and always will be unless we want to throw out the very thing that makes a miniature horse "miniature". That said I understand completely why from a AMHA standpoint a 34"+ is no longer a legitimate. Same as a 38"+ horse is no longer a legitimate AMHR registered horse. They may come from AMHR parents but they are no longer legitimate AMHR horses. I have a 36 1/2" mare that comes from AMHA parents but is not a legitimate miniature by AMHA's standards. It's nothing personal, the statement was not directed at me or my mare.

As far as pinning a over horse champion the judges have no control over what happens when measuring in, they have to judge what they see. Do we really want to give them power to judge on things they suspect?

I understand the horse shouldn't be in the class in the first place but from what I saw AMHR has NO room to talk. I had little to do but sit in the stands at Nationals, watch the measuring in and talk to trainers. After watching Nationals I have no burning desire to go back even though my horse did very well.

The fault beginnings and ends with the person holding the stick. Yes that is a pretty big load to dump on one set of shoulders but who else is suppose to make sure everyone plays fair in the sandbox.

 

[Margot]

Measuring problems are probably a never ending battle but I think we have to look at why people are trying to get their horses in smaller classes than they belong in. The AMHA rules say that all things being equal as far as quality the smaller horse should always be preferred over the bigger one but in reality if you go to shows you see that it is almost always the horse that is at the top of its class size that actually wins. It is still easier to breed the larger mini to look more horse-like than the smaller ones and the judges seem to prefer the larger ones in most cases. At AMHR shows it is now the ASPC/AMHR minis that seem to have the advantage and people have told me they cannot compete with the ASPC minis. So the minis that are winning are now often pure Shetland Pony. I know that most minis have a lot of Shetland blood but not all or they would not have some of the colors they do. So is it a good thing that maybe soon all the minis that do the winning are actually going to be pure Shetland, I don't know but I do think the reason people try to cheat their horses into smaller size classes is because they have an advantage being the tallest in the class. Measuring is not an exact science, I usually measure my horses bigger than what they measure at shows and if ten people measure the same horse they will not all get the same size. I wonder if this is a problem that can ever be solved.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I haven't read the most recent AMHA Rulebook cover to cover lately, but it at least USED to make clear that judges are NOT allowed to question height; if the horse appears in a class, it is 'supposed to' be there, and its height may not be publically questioned by a judge. I do believe that is how it should be, all things considered. It is for the registry and its management, from the top down, to SEE THAT the RULES, which have been agreed to/set by the MEMBERS, ARE FOLLOWED AND ENFORCED!

I have very limited experience with AMHR, but from what I do have, I would say they have pretty much the SAME issues as AMHA--like it or not.

Margo

 

[ClickMini]

Jody I agree with your post that the measuring issues are worked on constantly, I pay alot of attention to the board minutes and I also attended the annual meeting last year. I don't fault anyone for trying to resolve issues and I believe the 2 hour window is a real and true issue. I was at the meeting last year when it was discussed also.

And I also have to state that if hardshipping is closed, I WILL have to make a choice! I have some very nice AMHR only horses at the moment that are not yet old enough to hardship, yet they meet the other requirements. I bought them with the full intention of hardshipping them. And AMHR DOES allow hardshipping from AMHA and ASPC, right? So it is not totally closed. Which is what I hear is wanted by SOME in the AMHA registry. My point in my previous post is totally centered on the revenue loss to the registry of doing that. And the fact that I would be pretty sad about it if it happened. I really don't think that is a slam on the registry at all, but it absolutely would force me to choose. Just a fact of life! I am not selling my horses just so I can have all double-registered stock. Especially since they are already registered with one or more registries, AMHR and in one case AMHR/ASPC, and are ALL within the height limit for under horses!

 

[LaVern]

I agree with you Margot. It is pretty hard for our 35-36 inch minis to compete with the ponies at Nationals,(Little Congress) but I have decided to let the size thing go. I'm going to just raise what I like, that breeds true and promote that.

I love going to Nationals ( Little Congress). I'll continue to take and, show what I like to see presented from my farm and maybe someone else will like it too. My customers do not want to have to worry about size and I don't want to have to return money because a horse went over 38 inches. Renee -Lucky Hart Ranch

 

[windemereminis]

I have been reading this post with interest just as I did Ed's letter. I am thinking how simple this can be.

Has anyone ever thought of saying, "I believe that my horse is show quality and I have confidence in him/her?" Then you add to the statement, "However, I will enter the horse honestly with no strategies, but based on the qualities of the horse." If others would join in on what the letter said about getting their horses measured in at the accurate height then no further conversation is needed in that regards of the letter. I don't agree with the fact that the trainer's are not part of this solution because I believe that they do know what the height is of each and every horse in their show string. This has gone on for years in trying to move taller horses into the shorter height class, in order to win, and my hope is that more trainers and owners will take it upon themselves to say that they are ready to step up to the plate and they will no longer do so.

Ed is right that owners and their horses have been hurt by this. It happened to us more than once and our honesty in the matter cost us our horse even being shown. When our trainer walked away from our horse in 2005, because we made a legitimate protest, our horse was left in the stall. What a terrible experience for us and other individuals as well. I can't tell you the feeling of watching a horse, that is permanently registered with AMHA to be 1 1/2" over the height limit of the class, walk into the winner's circle. Not only did it cost us financially, but the emotional toll was more than I wanted to experience. My hope for the future is to know that owners will hold their head up high and say "Yes, my horse is incredible and it won honestly". Would our horse have been the World Champion? We will never know since that honor was taken away from us and our horse.

Can we ever go back and regain the honors that our horse lost from being cheated, NO, it isn't going to happen, but to see that some trainers and owners are saying, enough is enough, and I am going to take the high road is an incredible feeling. Will more of you say the same? Many have been guilty in the past and let's say, we can't change the past, but to look ahead and make our association the best it can be. Will you step up to the plate and say, Yes I have been guilty, but I want to go forward with the others who say honesty and integrity do matter? Did the past experience hurt us? I am sure that it did because a World Champion title went to a horse that was not legitimate. Has the owner ever said that they wished it hadn't happened? No, but I have hope that someday they will also say enough is enough. Will people make honest mistakes, I think so, but to see the trainers also say they are ready to move forward with integrity is a step in the right direction.

Thanks for listening!

Janet

 

[kaykay]

Janet

I just want to say that I dont know you but was there when that whole fiasco happened. I saw first hand how you were treated and I was boiling over mad. I so respect and admire you for standing up for what is right. I know this has nothing to do with this thread but I just wanted to say it.

Or maybe it does? AFter watching this in 2005 cemented my decision to no longer be a member of AMHA.

And how did this thread go from wanting true measurements in AMHA to calling AMHR Nationals little congress and bashing ASPC/AMHR horses? I have said previously in this thread there are measuring problems in both registries we all know that but still!

Kay

 

[JWC sr.]

I did not take offense at anything Ed had to say, as I just considered the source and the audience it was intended for. LOL OH!

As far as horses over 34" not being legitimate that is just silly. They are beautiful and just as important in the miniature industry as a under 34" horse.

I have seen owners and trainers be real fools when it comes to someone that is measuring the horses at a show. Last year at the combination A & R show in San Antonio the lady was trying to be right as she could and people were down right hatefull to her which was really sad.

My best suggestion is the same as Belinda's, measure to the top of the withers. It would stop a lot of subjective things from happening.

Next I would put rules in place to deal with abusive exhibitors, bond the measuring stewarts and then pull those bonds if a person was found to be negligent on a regular basis with some sort of variance being fiqured into the mix.

Also to address the point that Belinda made about other horses being in the classes that were over the class size, she is correct.

I can also say that after going to the R nationals I saw it there also. So I am not sure why this is being made an just an A issue, in my opinion it is a mini industry issue.

It is times like this that I wish the registries could work with other to give us as breeders/members some rules that could be understood, put into implementation and enforced easily across the board.

Our only hope as owners/members of both registries is that the directors/officers of the two registries will try and make changes that are best for the breed as a whole. A and B sized horses included!

I know folks such as Belinda as an AMHR director are trying to do this and that it may take some time. In the mean time I will continue to voice my suggested changes and hope for the best from our leaders.

And before someone suggests it, NO we do not need another registry.

The two we have are filled with good folks and great horses, what more than that can we ask for. Yes there may be a few problems from time to time, but those can be addressed within our industry as needed.