Against new voting ideas

[Freezin Cold B]

When did I say I didn't work? I said I quit my job but I didn't say I didn't have money from working saved. I've worked as a telemarketer, a receptionist and as a day care teacher. I've had jobs since the day I turned 16. However, this winter I decided I would rather help the homeless for a while.

BTW as I stated my boyfriend works at the post office and makes a good living. I also have plenty of money saved up from working. I also work from time to time when I'm not busy, and I frequently use ebay as a "side" source of income. Yes my mom pays my AMHA membership but I pay my AMHR membership. Why don't I pay my AMHA membership, because my mom pays for my entire family (including cousins, aunts, uncles, ect..). I also pay my membership dues for every other club I'm involved with and "gasp" my own way. OMG Its a shocker! According to you all I am a big girl!!

"Do you think that because I am on a fixed income after a car accident I don't have the right to vote because I can't spend $1,000 to go to a meeting"

If you are on a fixed income why do you have horses? Shouldn't you wait until a time when you are financially stable to own horses?

Why do I have to defend my age to you? My god, if your only argument is "she's too young to have an opinion" than obviously you don't have anything worthy to add to this discussion, which I started because I felt that those who opposed a rule change were underrepresented on the forum NOT because I'm mean and out to keep people from voting. I already said, "if the majority wants it, then the majority should have it".

"I have been to College and you can miss classes as long as assignments are turned in"

Actually, every class I have ever attended has an attendance policy. One of my classes drops you a letter grade every class you miss. Luckily, the classes I will be missing in the near future happen during a time the teacher will also be gone. I'm a B student not because I get B's but because I miss school for AMHA conventions and miniature horse shows. In fact, if there wasn't attendance policies I'd have a 4.0! Even my lecture classes of over 100 circulate a sign in form. I don't know where you went to college but it certainly wasn't the same place as I attend.

Alright, now I'm done. Can we PLEASE take this back to AMHA and voting?

 

[Katiean]

Freezin, You do not have a clue. I have horses because I want horses. I am on a fixed imcome not by my choosing. Someone ran into my car and totaled it and my neck. I have miniature horses because I can handle them with my disability. Also, I think I know what the B stands for in your name but we won't go there. You have attacked EVERYONE that doesn't agree with you. I guess what you are saying to all of us that pay our own bills is you live off of others.

 

[Neil]

I responded to your post on the other thread and will answer the same here. Every arguement you use against allowing the general membership to vote could also be used in the case of a U.S. Presidential election. Yet, we manage to work it out. We do not force citizens to travel across the country and attend a convention in order to be allowed to vote for President.

And even though we cast our votes for the U.S. Presidential election the reality is that we as individuals don't elect our President, the Electoral College elects the President.

Is my vote for President and Vice President meaningful in the Electoral College system?

Yes, within your State your vote has a great deal of significance. Under the Electoral College system, we do not elect the President and Vice President through a direct nation-wide vote. The Presidential election is decided by the combined results of 51 State elections (in this context, the term "State" includes DC). It is possible that an elector could ignore the results of the popular vote, but that occurs very rarely. Your vote helps decide which candidate receives your State's electoral votes.

The founders of the nation devised the Electoral College system as part of their plan to share power between the States and the national government. Under the Federal system adopted in the U.S. Constitution, the nation-wide popular vote has no legal significance. As a result, it is possible that the electoral votes awarded on the basis of State elections could produce a different result than the nation-wide popular vote. Nevertheless, the individual citizen's vote is important to the outcome of each State election.

 

[Freezin Cold B]

"Do you really think there are so many dishonest people it would change the outcome of a vote?"

How long have you been in horses? If I had a nickle for every dishonest horse person I've met..well...I'd have enough money to pay for you all to fly out to the meeting. You want examples, send me a PM and I'll be more than happy to tell you all about all the dishonest people I've met/know. Of course names will be withheld to protect the guilty. But I do have some funny stories.

Longer than you've been alive, dear. OH!

Then you must know all those breeders who say their stallion is 32" when he's really 36". Or those trainers who say that their clients horses aren't for sale because they want to sell off their own horses instead. Or the people who prior to DNA'ing would breed a no name stallion to their mares and claim that it is the famous stallion _______. Or those showers who cosmetically alter their horses but shhhhh don't tell anyone. Or those people who tell person A a horse is $5,000 and person B a horse is $10,000 because they know that person B has the $$$. Or the people who bribed their way to the top. Or the people who staple their horses testicles down so they don't have to geld their "prize" stallion because he's crypt. Or the people who's horse have never produced an oversized miniature thats got a 38" foal. Or the trainers who've slept with the judges that they are showing too the night before. Or the people who sell their crypt stallions AS geldings. Or the people who put on their OWN SHOWS so they win everything and gain tons of points. All of these are people I know and they are all different people. These are the dishonest people I don't trust.

Edited because prior to posting I accidently deleated my last sentance.

Freezin, You do not have a clue. I have horses because I want horses. I am on a fixed imcome not by my choosing. Someone ran into my car and totaled it and my neck. I have miniature horses because I can handle them with my disability. Also, I think I know what the B stands for in your name but we won't go there. You have attacked EVERYONE that doesn't agree with you. I guess what you are saying to all of us that pay our own bills is you live off of others.

I'm not aware of anywhere that I have attacked anyone. I have countered their arguments but not attacked anyone. Suzi was the first person to make a personal attack by stating I would change my thinking when I "matured" which indicated that, as of this current moment, I am not mature. Give me one example of where I have attacked someone please. I have only meant to open up a discussion with another side to this. Please PM me as I would like to keep this about the AMHA voting.

If this continues in this way I ask that one of the moderators please close this topic. This isn't becoming a discussion at all.

 

[Neil]

Freezin, You need to grow up just a bit and live in the real world. I have been to College and you can miss classes as long as assignments are turned in. This makes you to miss a few classes. Do you think that because I am on a fixed income after a car accident I don't have the right to vote because I can't spend $1,000 to go to a meeting? And yes, thats about what it would cost me to go to TX from Nevada. $3.45 a gallon for gas at about 7 MPG. You are in school you do the math. I still want the right to vote.

You might want to check where the annual meetings are before you head off for Tx. This past meeting was held in South Carolina and the next one in 2009 will be held in San Diego, CA. And, as for the 2007 meeting it was held in your own home state of Nevada; Las Vegas.

I am also on a fixed income and I managed to go to Las Vegas last year and will be attending the San Diego meeting next year. Although I may not attend meetings when they are on the east coast I feel I should be at the meetings when they are held in the west.

For the last three years I have traveled to Ft Worth to work at the World Show. It is my way of giving back to the breed.

 

[maestoso]

Wow! This thread has certainly trailed in many directions! It some how went from reasons why absentee voting wouldn't work, to what qualifies maturity. I have decided to respond to both.....

I could go on and on about this but I'll try to keep it short. While your comments may be directed to the individual as the result of frustration, they sound generalized. I'd just like to say that the fact that I haven't yet paid a mortgage or raised a child has nothing to do with my maturity level. To say that you need to have experienced "adult things"(Like buying a house, having a child, completely supporting yourself) to be mature is a completely ignorant statement. I really hope that you don't REALLY believe that......

As for the list of reasons why absentee voting won't work, here's my take.... Pick any rule or bylaw you want, and someone can come up with a list of reasons why it won't work, or what is wrong with it. The idea is to find something that can work, and suits the majority of members. I think the absentee voting is a good idea, I will never go to a convention, I just have too many other things going on, but I pay my dues, and I would like to vote.

Freezin Cold, the way you are arguing, it is hard to take you seriously. You are using little logic and your rebuttals are completely off topic and random.

First: We don't need to ensure anything. The percentage of people trying to steal pin numbers or voting cards would be too small to matter. I honestly dont think your med student cousin cares about meddling with the AMHA voting.

Secondeployed military AMHA members...... If they are really in Iraq fighting for their country, i don't think they are worried about voting for AMHA, and they will have the chance to vote for furture things when they return home. Also, I'm willing to bet the number of deployed AMHA members is less then a hundred, a small number, YOU could always volunteer to start a committee and send them voting cards.

Third: If they paid their dues, they are active, and have every right that the rest of us do, end of story. Anyone who really doesn't care, isn't fronting the $75 to join.

Fourth: Snail Mail problems are few and far between. As far as computer problems, well there will likely be a time frame where people are allowed to vote. Likely, this would be at least a week. I am 23, and I can't remember anytime when I have lost power for an entire week. And if there was some natural disaster and it did happen, I'm going to be more worried about that than an AMHA vote.

Fifth: Ummmm the US government DOES hold multiple state votes, in fact they do it every few years or so

For you to compare this to a presidential election is a little ridiculous, totally not the same thing. Perhaps your thinking about the Gore/Bush debate........1 out of dozens of elections and your telling me the US doesn't know how to run a vote?

sixth: Eh, No, it probably won't. People who go likely fall into two categories..... those who make a living through Minis, they would likely go regardless, or those whom it is easy and convenient to get to the convention, they would probably still go to.

seventh: Good things take time!!!

Oh wow, Ive just continued reading...... sleeping with the judges? I wonder how frequent a practice that one is...... It sounds like there's a lot of problems......... Freezin you may want to join a more honest club. Clearly, AMHA is a little too scandalous for you.

 

[mininik]

It's good to know that so many of those worthy "active" members of the AMHA... the trainers, breeders and judges... many of whom are also cheats, liars and thieves according to Freezin... can vote for the rest of the members at Convention.

 

[Freezin Cold B]

Thank you Matt for sticking with the topic! One of the reason that after my original post my posts seem somewhat absurd is because on a few occasions I was trying to add humor into the mix (and failing miserably

). I defended my age so strongly (and poorly) because it was the original reason behind me leaving the forum 4 years ago. Its frustrating because in every other aspect of my life I am considered an adult and yet, no matter how old I get, there are always people who look down upon my age in the miniature horse industry. Frustration does not lead to logical and clear writing. IMO its not the age, its the quality of experience. I think you wrote that in the words I was trying to find in my frustrated brain.

My paragraph about my "history" was a little out of place but I was trying to get people to realize that I'm not a mean person trying to take away the rights of the "oppressed". I'm also not a complete idiot who had no logical arguments. I think that sometimes things that make sense to me don't translate completely to others, especially if they don't read carefully.

2. I used the military because they are an obvious group of people who are unable to easily vote. The other group I thought of was those in prison. You can see why I choose to argue for the military members and not the convicts. "YOU could always volunteer to start a committee and send them voting cards." that is a good idea and if those who wish to pass a new voting method succeed I hope that someone does volunteer to ENSURE they are able to vote.

5. There has been some "slip ups" during this primary too. I know every election year there are atleast a few counties around the country that claim their votes weren't counted. I used it as an example because its a vote that involves multiple states and locations. There really aren't any other votes that I can think of that do involve nationwide voting. Yes, it is MUCH larger than an AMHA vote would be, but I would hope that it would be MUCH more sophisticated. I'm just saying if there are some "questions" during elections held by a democracy the size of the United States, what can we expect for the AMHA?

6. This is a good point. That is who already makes up the majority of the convention anyway.

"Oh wow, Ive just continued reading...... sleeping with the judges? I wonder how frequent a practice that one is...... It sounds like there's a lot of problems......... Freezin you may want to join a more honest club. Clearly, AMHA is a little too scandalous for you."

That would actually be in the arabians.

. I don't know anyone who's slept with judges in the AMHA. I have, however, seen a judge enter exhibitors trailers during an AMHA show. The girl wasn't done showing either, because I showed against her later. There are many judges and people who are ethical. I think there are more good people than bad, but there are a remarkable number of bad out there too.

It's good to know that so many of those worthy "active" members of the AMHA... the trainers, breeders and judges... many of whom are also cheats, liars and thieves according to Freezin... can vote for the rest of the members at Convention.

I said horses, not just the AMHA. I think the rules AMHA has make it very difficult for people to be cheats and liars..(thieves?). Thats one of the reasons I'm so active and proud to be an AMHA member. Actually most of what I listed happened in "other" registries or breeds.

 

[mininik]

First you said:

"First, how do we ensure that the person voting IS an adult or AMHA member. I know that as a youth member I had access to all our Miniature Horse files, I wouldn't have voted in my mom's place but...I bet there people who would. Or what about multiple AMHA member households. Again, my mom and me both have access to each others information. We don't always agree on rule changes. Who's to say that I wouldn't vote in her place without her knowledge."

Then you said:

"As I stated I HAVE ACCESS TO MY MOMS INFO!!! I could vote for her without her knowledge. I could use her Pin Number. I'm not saying I WOULD but I'm saying I COULD and if I COULD who says other who COULD...WOULDN't. Pin numbers don't mean anything. Now if we could use fingerprint recognition.. yes I wouldn't have an argument."

And finally:

"Then you must know all those breeders who say their stallion is 32" when he's really 36". Or those trainers who say that their clients horses aren't for sale because they want to sell off their own horses instead. Or the people who prior to DNA'ing would breed a no name stallion to their mares and claim that it is the famous stallion _______. Or those showers who cosmetically alter their horses but shhhhh don't tell anyone. Or those people who tell person A a horse is $5,000 and person B a horse is $10,000 because they know that person B has the $$$. Or the people who bribed their way to the top. Or the people who staple their horses testicles down so they don't have to geld their "prize" stallion because he's crypt. Or the people who's horse have never produced an oversized miniature thats got a 38" foal. Or the trainers who've slept with the judges that they are showing too the night before. Or the people who sell their crypt stallions AS geldings. Or the people who put on their OWN SHOWS so they win everything and gain tons of points. All of these are people I know and they are all different people. These are the dishonest people I don't trust."

The above paragraph cites many issues which would be related ONLY to Miniatures, yet in the next breath you state:

"I said horses, not just the AMHA. I think the rules AMHA has make it very difficult for people to be cheats and liars..(thieves?). Thats one of the reasons I'm so active and proud to be an AMHA member. Actually most of what I listed happened in "other" registries or breeds."

HUH?!? What a bunch of gobbledygook!

 

[maestoso]

If most of it happened in other breeds, then there's no need to worry about stolen pin numbers because those "other" breeds think we are a joke anyway

 

[Freezin Cold B]

First you said:

"First, how do we ensure that the person voting IS an adult or AMHA member. I know that as a youth member I had access to all our Miniature Horse files, I wouldn't have voted in my mom's place but...I bet there people who would. Or what about multiple AMHA member households. Again, my mom and me both have access to each others information. We don't always agree on rule changes. Who's to say that I wouldn't vote in her place without her knowledge."

Then you said:

"As I stated I HAVE ACCESS TO MY MOMS INFO!!! I could vote for her without her knowledge. I could use her Pin Number. I'm not saying I WOULD but I'm saying I COULD and if I COULD who says other who COULD...WOULDN't. Pin numbers don't mean anything. Now if we could use fingerprint recognition.. yes I wouldn't have an argument."

And finally:

"Then you must know all those breeders who say their stallion is 32" when he's really 36". Or those trainers who say that their clients horses aren't for sale because they want to sell off their own horses instead. Or the people who prior to DNA'ing would breed a no name stallion to their mares and claim that it is the famous stallion _______. Or those showers who cosmetically alter their horses but shhhhh don't tell anyone. Or those people who tell person A a horse is $5,000 and person B a horse is $10,000 because they know that person B has the $$$. Or the people who bribed their way to the top. Or the people who staple their horses testicles down so they don't have to geld their "prize" stallion because he's crypt. Or the people who's horse have never produced an oversized miniature thats got a 38" foal. Or the trainers who've slept with the judges that they are showing too the night before. Or the people who sell their crypt stallions AS geldings. Or the people who put on their OWN SHOWS so they win everything and gain tons of points. All of these are people I know and they are all different people. These are the dishonest people I don't trust."

The above paragraph cites many issues which would be related to Miniatures ONLY, yet in the next breath you state:

"I said horses, not just the AMHA. I think the rules AMHA has make it very difficult for people to be cheats and liars..(thieves?). Thats one of the reasons I'm so active and proud to be an AMHA member. Actually most of what I listed happened in "other" registries or breeds."

HUH?!?

Field of Dreams made a statement about dishonest people. I asked how long they had been in horses (not minis), which was meant as a rhetorical question because it really doesn't have anything to do with how many dishonest people you come across. Field of Dreams responded with "longer than you've been alive". Then I listed dishonest people I've encountered in the horse industry. It'll make sense if you follow our two posts. If Field of Dreams hasn't ever come across dishonest people that is wonderful.

"If most of it happened in other breeds, then there's no need to worry about stolen pin numbers because those "other" breeds think we are a joke anyway"

Unfortunately, you are right about some people in other breeds.

. When I say "other" registeries I don't necessarly mean other breeds.

.

BTW in response to mininik below...I said "AMHA rules make it hard." I didn't say it didn't happen. I'm not questioning the integrity of the AMHA or AMHR breeders. I'm just saying there are people in both registries who are dishonest. There are many horse people who are dishonest. There are many people all over who are dishonest. There are people who are honest. There are people who are so determined to get what they want they forget what is and isn't honest. I think almost everyone fits into that catagory at some point and time in their life.

If people want to talk to me or whatever PM me. I'm not going to post here anymore. I've posted too much on something that I want to be a discussion not a "me talking to a group of people."

 

[mininik]

Oh, right, so now we're talking about AMHR...

... but if AMHA members are so honest, and that IS the registry we are concerned about here, WHY would the Email/ballot voting be an issue for reasons of alleged dishonesty in "other" registries or breeds?

Good grief, this is a screwy conversation.

 

[maestoso]

I really like the word; Gobbledygook!

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Rebecca I do agree with you somewhat and that I am a bit apprehensive about online voting for a few reasons that you mentioned.

1. The misuse of voting. Strictly online 'registered' members would be great but there are a few people out there that well . . . buying votes by taking people to the Convention has happened before and those with larger families, loyal employees or close friends, etc. might have access to more than a single vote. My husband and I are lifetime members, he couldn't name half a dozen horses here, so technically I have control of two votes whether he fills it out or not. Nothing would stop me from getting memberships for my son, or other family members - which I guess would benefit AMHA with a bunch of new members!!!

Anyway, y point is that misuse would occur to some degree, no one will know how serious it will be until an issue some feel really strongly about is going to come up for a vote. So, one thing that would need to be addressed in any bylaw change for voting would be the time frame of being a member - I would say definitely before the June meeting, so a flood of potential voters do not appear prior to the actual vote date. Now it's 2 months, I believe?

2. Bringing the military in - that was weak.

3. Inactive members - if you pay you have a right to vote - regardless if I think you should be actively involved or not, you are dues paying so have that right!

4. PC/mail problems - well there could be a blackout at the convention or terrorist could blow it up or a meteor - again weak.

5. IF major corporations can allow online voting for share holders its not impossible for a horse registry to do so in a secure way.

6. AMHA having a lower turn out. Lower than what the 100 people that already attend? Maybe they need to find a way to increase people wanting to go to convention - better educational seminars, make it family friendly with things for non-horse family members to do (then is a vacation for some as well as a tax write off!), tour of local farrms, maybe an auction or sale. Better variety of vendors - its not just tack and feed, computer programs, cameras, foal alert, harness/carts, CDE, veterinarians, trailers, fencing, real estate there are alot of associated vendors. Every industry puts on conventions and every major city has lots of resources to help make these events - 'events'!

It needs to be more of a prestige 'event' - right now other than the meetings I don't find either registries Convention's particularly exciting (and I do try to attend both if they're West Coast).

Seventh, The counting of the votes would take FOREVER and anyone who's sat through the voting knows it already seems like it takes forever.

And Rebecca I'm not bringing age into this as you have the right to your opinion and I'm glad you can be mature enough to present your thoughts here whether I agree 100% with you or not. I don't think you should be attacked for having an opinion - one you obviously feel strongly about - you're ideas fine, but not personal attacks on you.

Age doesn't make you mature or smart - it just makes you old.

Before I drone on to long here - I still want a way for the membership to vote even if that means my dues paying fourth cousin twice removed with a second grade education and one pet gelding in her backyard also can vote - well it would be MY opportunity to educate her on why she should vote, etc. And hey as my fictional cousin is as dumb as a brick she'd probably forget to vote anyway! LOL!!!

It is going to happen one day, the outcry for member participation has been growing year by year - so lets all work TOGETHER to find a good solution.