Against new voting ideas

[Freezin Cold B]

I have MANY problems with people voting who are not at the meeting.

First, how do we ensure that the person voting IS an adult or AMHA member. I know that as a youth member I had access to all our Miniature Horse files, I wouldn't have voted in my mom's place but...I bet there people who would. Or what about multiple AMHA member households. Again, my mom and me both have access to each others information. We don't always agree on rule changes. Who's to say that I wouldn't vote in her place without her knowledge.

Second, what about deployed military members? I'm sure there are some who would love to vote but, if you are in the middle of Iraq your first thought isn't going to be "oh the AMHA Convention is going on!" Why should they be excluded. Should we wait to vote until all our members are in the position that they can vote?

Third, what about inactive AMHA members? There are plenty of people who are members of AMHA that are no longer/never were active in Miniature Horses. One example is my cousin, she showed with us when we were both around 10-12. That was OVER 10 years AGO!! She is still an AMHA member because my mom ensures most of my family is, just incase they want to show ammy one day. Knowing my cousin I would bet she would vote on something she had no knowledge of. She's a know it all med student who would assume she could vote better than any of us active members.

Fourth, computer/mail problems. If we have problems with the post office and some members don't get their ballots, will we have to recount? What about the computer? What if 1/2 of California has a blackout and people can't get online?

Fifth, the US government can't even hold a multiple state vote why could the AMHA?

Sixth, The AMHA Convention will have a lower turn out.

Seventh, The counting of the votes would take FOREVER and anyone who's sat through the voting knows it already seems like it takes forever.

Do you want me to go on because I've got more?

BTW. I usually go to AMHA Conventions to vote. I've missed school many times to drive across the country to ensure that my voice is heard.

 

[McBunz]

I have MANY problems with people voting who are not at the meeting.

First, how do we ensure that the person voting IS an adult or AMHA member. I know that as a youth member I had access to all our Miniature Horse files, I wouldn't have voted in my mom's place but...I bet there people who would. Or what about multiple AMHA member households. Again, my mom and me both have access to each others information. We don't always agree on rule changes. Who's to say that I wouldn't vote in her place without her knowledge.

Second, what about deployed military members? I'm sure there are some who would love to vote but, if you are in the middle of Iraq your first thought isn't going to be "oh the AMHA Convention is going on!" Why should they be excluded. Should we wait to vote until all our members are in the position that they can vote?

Third, what about inactive AMHA members? There are plenty of people who are members of AMHA that are no longer/never were active in Miniature Horses. One example is my cousin, she showed with us when we were both around 10-12. That was OVER 10 years AGO!! She is still an AMHA member because my mom ensures most of my family is, just incase they want to show ammy one day. Knowing my cousin I would bet she would vote on something she had no knowledge of. She's a know it all med student who would assume she could vote better than any of us active members.

Fourth, computer/mail problems. If we have problems with the post office and some members don't get their ballots, will we have to recount? What about the computer? What if 1/2 of California has a blackout and people can't get online?

Fifth, the US government can't even hold a multiple state vote why could the AMHA?

Sixth, The AMHA Convention will have a lower turn out.

Seventh, The counting of the votes would take FOREVER and anyone who's sat through the voting knows it already seems like it takes forever.

Do you want me to go on because I've got more?

BTW. I usually go to AMHA Conventions to vote. I've missed school many times to drive across the country to ensure that my voice is heard.

No 1. Each person legal to vote would receive a pin number or use their AMHA number to vote.

No 2. It is impossible for everyone to vote.. some might be in the hospital or something.. but a large

number of voters is certainly a better idea of what the general memberships want than a hundred or less people voting at the general meeting.

No. 3 What do you call and active member.. Show is not the only game in town.. If you pay your membership you should have as many rights as anyone else that pays theirs.

No. 4 Mail problems are very rare.. given a couple months ahead to study the issues and then vote seems

a fair way to do it.

No. 5 Because the numbers are much much smaller.

No. 6 The AMHA plans for seminars and such will still draw members to the convention and the directors

will still be there.. So I see no drop in numbers..

 

[Songcatcher]

I responded to your post on the other thread and will answer the same here. Every arguement you use against allowing the general membership to vote could also be used in the case of a U.S. Presidential election. Yet, we manage to work it out. We do not force citizens to travel across the country and attend a convention in order to be allowed to vote for President.

 

[bingo]

1. It could be done with passwords or PIN numbers- sure some will choose to cheat just like some choose to cheat almost every system there is in place in this country. You can't always police morals.

2. Deployed members can't presently vote anyway and like you said I am sure they are worried about bigger and different issues at the moment they are deployed although they could have a family member vote for them after reading about issues on the AMHA web site.

3. I am sure if someone is truly inactive in AMHA they will not take the time to vote and if they do well as a member the vote counts. It shouldn't be up to a select few to decide whose vote is important enough.

4. Mail issues are usually not that large and spread out. I am sure if Ca had a blackout that effected over half the state accommodations could be made to get their votes counted.

5. AMHA is very different then the US Government dealing with issues that cannot be compared to issues in one Miniature Horse Registry.

6. AMHA have a lower turn out at Convention? Lower then the what 100 people or so that were present this time? I am sure those who have the time and financial means to go will do so as always.

7. I am sure that obviously the majority of people would opt for Internet voting as that is most convenient and of course the computer would be able to count that. I don't think it would take "forever" to count the rest of the votes.

 

[Freezin Cold B]

"No 1. Each person legal to vote would receive a pin number or use their AMHA number to vote.

No 2. It is impossible for everyone to vote.. some might be in the hospital or something.. but a large

number of voters is certainly a better idea of what the general memberships want than a hundred or less people voting at the general meeting.

No. 3 What do you call and active member.. Show is not the only game in town.. If you pay your membership you should have as many rights as anyone else that pays theirs.

No. 4 Mail problems are very rare.. given a couple months ahead to study the issues and then vote seems

a fair way to do it.

No. 5 Because the numbers are much much smaller.

No. 6 The AMHA plans for seminars and such will still draw members to the convention and the directors

will still be there.. So I see no drop in numbers.."

1. As I stated I HAVE ACCESS TO MY MOMS INFO!!! I could vote for her without her knowledge. I could use her Pin Number. I'm not saying I WOULD but I'm saying I COULD and if I COULD who says other who COULD...WOULDN't. Pin numbers don't mean anything. Now if we could use fingerprint recognition.. yes I wouldn't have an argument.

2. It is impossible for everyone to vote. Thats what I'm saying. Those who get to vote will say "this is fair!" those who don't will say "wait a second why I didn't I get to vote!". Your argument is "its not fair that some get to vote, while others don't. Especially on big issues that effect everyone." I'm simply agreeing with you but also saying that the proposed solution won't make it fair. It'll just ensure that YOU get to vote. Unless you are in the military.

3. So you want someone who doesn't show, who doesn't participate in AMHA activites and who might not even care the results of the vote, having the ability to determine the rules?

4. Mail probablems are rare? Where do you live? I'm moving to where you live! I'd say our post office loses my letters or letters I've sent once a month. My boyfriend works for our post office so, unfortunately, I've learned about the people who handle my mail and I'm suprised even 1/2 it makes it to me. Heck, I didn't get the first invite to my friends babyshower, so she sent me a second one which I also didn't get. She has my correct addy because she sends me stuff on occasion and it does, sometimes, arrive.

5. You are right about that one.

6. Who says people will want to attend the seminars offered? Most clubs hold seminars that are much closer.

"I responded to your post on the other thread and will answer the same here. Every arguement you use against allowing the general membership to vote could also be used in the case of a U.S. Presidential election. Yet, we manage to work it out. We do not force citizens to travel across the country and attend a convention in order to be allowed to vote for President."

You didn't vote in Florida 2000 did you? LOL

 

[McBunz]

Thanks for your input... although I don't agree with it you have the right to say what you think. And yes I do

think people who do not show should have the right to vote as well as those who do.. Our memberships and

registrations contribute to the general funds that allow you to show.. at AMHA shows put on by AMHA. like

the national show.. Entries I doubt cover it all.. Many of us advertise who do not show.. More revenue..

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

1. As I stated I HAVE ACCESS TO MY MOMS INFO!!! I could vote for her without her knowledge. I could use her Pin Number. I'm not saying I WOULD but I'm saying I COULD and if I COULD who says other who COULD...WOULDN't. Pin numbers don't mean anything. Now if we could use fingerprint recognition.. yes I wouldn't have an argument.

Do you really think there are so many dishonest people it would change the outcome of a vote?

2. It is impossible for everyone to vote. Thats what I'm saying. Those who get to vote will say "this is fair!" those who don't will say "wait a second why I didn't I get to vote!". Your argument is "its not fair that some get to vote, while others don't. Especially on big issues that effect everyone." I'm simply agreeing with you but also saying that the proposed solution won't make it fair. It'll just ensure that YOU get to vote. Unless you are in the military.

Do you really think the military people are worried about Miniature horse stuff right now? If it means so much to them they WILL find a way! They sure can't vote the way the system is NOW, can they?

3. So you want someone who doesn't show, who doesn't participate in AMHA activites and who might not even care the results of the vote, having the ability to determine the rules?

YES! Their membership INSURES that. It's called RIGHTS.

4. Mail probablems are rare? Where do you live? I'm moving to where you live! I'd say our post office loses my letters or letters I've sent once a month. My boyfriend works for our post office so, unfortunately, I've learned about the people who handle my mail and I'm suprised even 1/2 it makes it to me. Heck, I didn't get the first invite to my friends babyshower, so she sent me a second one which I also didn't get. She has my correct addy because she sends me stuff on occasion and it does, sometimes, arrive.

And that is AMHA's problem how? That's also why people who DO have mail problems vote online.

5. You are right about that one.

6. Who says people will want to attend the seminars offered? Most clubs hold seminars that are much closer.

There are a lot more reasons people go to Converntion other than seminars- see old friends, talk horses for days on end, the tours, etc.

7. The counting of the votes would take FOREVER and anyone who's sat through the voting knows it already seems like it takes forever.

Not really, there are companies that this is what they do. If state elections can have the results within a few hours surely we can get the results of 12,000 members in less than a week. Plus, it's not like all the ballots will arrive at the same time in one fell swoop..... some people will mail/email their vote right away, others will wait until the last second.

Lucy

 

[Magic]

1. As I stated I HAVE ACCESS TO MY MOMS INFO!!! I could vote for her without her knowledge. I could use her Pin Number. I'm not saying I WOULD but I'm saying I COULD and if I COULD who says other who COULD...WOULDN't. Pin numbers don't mean anything. Now if we could use fingerprint recognition.. yes I wouldn't have an argument.

And then if your Mom went to vote and found out that someone had already voted with her info, well, she would have a good idea just WHO did, wouldn't she?

I would think that a registry would be wise to let their members vote on all important issues without making them travel long distances to do so. Unhappy members may just quit. I personally know several people who have dropped out of AMHA in the last few years for various reasons. I'm still a member myself and have no plans to change that, but I sure would like to be able to give input to the things that affect me without having to spend a fortune to get to the meetings.

 

[Tango]

Freezin,

How would you feel if your voting rights as an American citizen were taken away or were simply non-existent? Currently, in the US, for those that are eligible and are registered to vote, they have a REASONABLE OPPORTUNITY to do so. By "reasonable" I mean, they have a local polling place to cast their votes without having to attend a convention or annual meeting clear across the country to do so.

Not everyone votes, period. That is a statistical fact. But again, as a US citizen, we have the right to do so if we choose.

That is what this is all about. Bringing about a change that would allow all AMHA members the right of a reasonable opportunity to vote be it by mail, internet or a combination of several different options.

As far as people who "don't show", "don't participate in AMHA activities" etc. - those who don't show or participate in activities do breed and raise miniature horses and pay quite a bit of money to have those horses registered into AMHA. I think they are contributing a HUGE chunk to the organization by just doing that much. Which is why we feel the right to vote on the issues is so important since the passing of the Measuring proposal to measure at the base of the withers, which is a BYLAW and not a show rule, effects EVERYONE in the Association.

Nikki

 

[Suzie]

Third, what about inactive AMHA members? There are plenty of people who are members of AMHA that are no longer/never were active in Miniature Horses. One example is my cousin, she showed with us when we were both around 10-12. That was OVER 10 years AGO!! She is still an AMHA member because my mom ensures most of my family is, just incase they want to show ammy one day. Knowing my cousin I would bet she would vote on something she had no knowledge of. She's a know it all med student who would assume she could vote better than any of us active members.

BTW. I usually go to AMHA Conventions to vote. I've missed school many times to drive across the country to ensure that my voice is heard.

In particular, this bothers me. I don't show in any AMHA shows. However, I do breed, sell and buy AMHA horses and spends several thousand dollars every year in doing so. Does that make me LESS of a member than someone who shows one AMHA horse every year?

The statement that you missed school to go across country to ensure your voice is heard...that's great. However, I have a family to support, horses to care for and bills to pay. For me it is "no workee, no payee" and I can't just take off and go. There are a lot of us out here where LIFE interferes in our AMHA activities, you know, things like food and shelter.

In my opinion, as you mature, you might look back and see that there are older, wiser people out there looking out for your rights and trying to protect them, not figuring out how to cheat you on them (as you obviously have thought quite a bit about).

 

[minie812]

I pay for my membership and spend boo-hoo bucks toward the AMHA and SHOULD have every right to vote for any changes to the rules that are made including the new height measuring. It affects me...my horses...my breeding program and therefore should not be left to a select few to decide MY future and that of my farm. AMHA works for US...the PEOPLE...we are the majority

 

[Katiean]

BTW. I usually go to AMHA Conventions to vote. I've missed school many times to drive across the country to ensure that my voice is heard.

I am glad for you that you MISSED SCHOOL to go to convention. Some people live on fixed incomes or CAN'T miss WORK (horses do have to eat). I do not think that makes these people any less qualified to vote. They raise and sell AMHA horses and bring the money into AMHA in the form of their dues and registration fees just the same as the people that are able to attend the meetings. Voting should be available to anyone wants to vote that is a member (except for the kids. They should be 18).

 

[Minimor]

If a convention is worth going to, people will go, even if they are able to vote on line or by mail. I belong to another breed association which has an annual convention with seminars, meeting, banquet, auction, tours...and that association allows proxy voting. Many people do use the proxy vote...and many people still come to the convention and vote in person, just so they can take part in the seminars, tours and socializing.

As for your harping on your ability to access your mother's account--or her ability to access yours--if this is such a big issue for any particular family, perhaps family members should not allow other family members access to their account. Just because you can access your mother's account and MIGHT vote against her wishes using her account, that doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't be given mail or internet voting rights. The integrity problems of a few shouldn't ruin things for the rest of the membership!

Anyone who has paid for a membership should have the right to a vote--doesn't matter if they show one horse or 10 horses or if they breed 1 mare or 10 mares or no mares or if they never show--they pay for a membership, they get a vote, that's my view on it.

I understand that there are a number of people who don't want the status quo to change, because allowing internet or mail votes is surely going to shift the balance of power--the last thing that some want, for sure. While this might be a bad thing for those select few, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing for the association in general.

 

[Freezin Cold B]

"The statement that you missed school to go across country to ensure your voice is heard...that's great. However, I have a family to support, horses to care for and bills to pay. For me it is "no workee, no payee" and I can't just take off and go. There are a lot of us out here where LIFE interferes in our AMHA activities, you know, things like food and shelter. "

When I said I missed school I mean college which is the way I plan on getting a job in the future. I also have missed work (four years ago I wasn't in college I was working and took time off to attend the meeting). I understand that people HAVE jobs. Trust me, I had to fight with my boss for weeks before she'd let me have time off for "gasp" a horse meeting! Thats where my priority lies. This convention my priority was to not miss school because I'm preparing to apply to grad schools and I risk my GPA dropping. Basically, I think it all depends upon where your priority lies. My mom couldn't get away from work and missed the convention. She sucked it up and realized that she couldn't make it and her priority was work at that particular time.

No one really seems to understand WHAT i'm saying. I'm simply saying that a pin number isn't a 100% secure. I was using myself as an example. I'm not going to steal my moms pin number, I'm just saying I COULD. Who's to say that person A doesn't have access to person B's pin. Person A might steal person B's. If person B doesn't vote we'll never know that person B voted twice.

"Do you really think there are so many dishonest people it would change the outcome of a vote?"

How long have you been in horses? If I had a nickle for every dishonest horse person I've met..well...I'd have enough money to pay for you all to fly out to the meeting. You want examples, send me a PM and I'll be more than happy to tell you all about all the dishonest people I've met/know. Of course names will be withheld to protect the guilty. But I do have some funny stories.

"In particular, this bothers me. I don't show in any AMHA shows. However, I do breed, sell and buy AMHA horses and spends several thousand dollars every year in doing so. Does that make me LESS of a member than someone who shows one AMHA horse every year?"

Your taking one word and assuming that my statment is centered on that one word. If you breed AMHA horses then I would consider you an active member. The people I"m taking about are those who have one horse, chilling in their backyard, who don't breed, don't show, don't attend meetings, and are members because they just want to be members. Heck, like I used my cousin as an example, the only reason she's even going to approach my mom about renewing her membership (yes she doens't pay for her own membership) is because she wants to put it on her resume.

"And that is AMHA's problem how? That's also why people who DO have mail problems vote online."

My mail problems aren't AMHA's problem, unless they are behind a massive conspiracy to keep me from getting babyshower invitations.

. You're assuming everyone has a computer. I know many people who don't have computers or don't have the internet. I know people who don't even know how to turn a computer on.

"Anyone who has paid for a membership should have the right to a vote"

Whoa. Who told you that you didn't have the right to vote. You do have the right to vote if you are a member. You just have to attend the convention or vote by proxy (which is something that people who can't attend the convention have the ability to do).

"How would you feel if your voting rights as an American citizen were taken away or were simply non-existent?"

Well..I don't vote, except at the AMHA convention and for the next American Idol. As I stated AMHA never took away your right. You simply aren't exercising your right due to circumstance that I won't speculate.

I will say I believe that the majority rules. If the majority of people want something, and its possible, than I think it should be done. Regardless of whether or not I agree.

"And then if your Mom went to vote and found out that someone had already voted with her info, well, she would have a good idea just WHO did, wouldn't she?"

LOL knowing my mom she wouldn't even need to go and try vote. She has some superpower that allows her to know exactly when I have touched something of hers.

"In my opinion, as you mature, you might look back and see that there are older, wiser people out there looking out for your rights and trying to protect them, not figuring out how to cheat you on them (as you obviously have thought quite a bit about)."

Okay this kinda bothers me. I'm a very mature and wise person.. I'm a 22 year old who already has one college degree and is currently going for another (and beginning the quest for a third this summer), and then grad school in the fall of 09 as an Anthropology major BECAUSE, I want to work with UNICEF. I will admit I don't have a job, but I had a job as a telemarketer and quit because I wanted to spend my time working with homeless children and pregnant teenagers, which I do twice a week. And my time was also taken up by being involved with the Relay For Life, which I sit on my local committee. I have been involved in the horse industry since the day I was born. Literally, I recieved my first horse as a "birth" gift. I attended my first show at 3 months old and my first mini show at 2 years old. I have attended the AMHA convention every year (excluding this year) since I was old enough to vote, and I have participated in voting. So what part of this says I'm not mature or wise (in the horse industry or life)?

BTW. I talk about myself when making points becaue I'm familiar with myself and my situation. I'm not meaning to make people think that I'm going to do any of the things I said in examples.

 

[Katiean]

Freezin, You need to grow up just a bit and live in the real world. I have been to College and you can miss classes as long as assignments are turned in. This makes you to miss a few classes. Do you think that because I am on a fixed income after a car accident I don't have the right to vote because I can't spend $1,000 to go to a meeting? And yes, thats about what it would cost me to go to TX from Nevada. $3.45 a gallon for gas at about 7 MPG. You are in school you do the math. I still want the right to vote.

 

[Songcatcher]

From the point of an "old man" I fail to see how anyone who has not had to work for a living and be responsible to pay ALL their own bills can consider themselves mature (regardless of how much education they have). However, it seems they never fail to THINK they have the answers as to how everyone else should do things. OH!

 

[Tango]

When you are finally on your own, making house or rent payments, car and utility payments, paying back your own college loans, with a steady job where your employer can make you choose your job or horse meeting, and you decide that you have to choose your job because who else is going to make all of your payments, then you will be on the road to becoming a "mature" and "wise" person.

It will be at that time that you will wish you had an alternative way of voting.

Nikki

 

[Sue_C.]

$1,000 to go to a meeting? And yes, thats about what it would cost me to go to TX from Nevada. $3.45 a gallon for gas at about 7 MPG. You are in school you do the math.
I still want the right to vote.

HHHHMMM...Nova Scotia to Nevada...I don't think I want ANYONE to do the math; and you are darned tootin I want that vote as well.

 

[Minimor]

Tango got it exactly right. There's a big difference between working at a job as you know it and working for a living as in you HAVE to keep that job & your employer tells you that no, you absolutely cannot take time off to go a meeting!

I think nearly everyone would prefer to have a vote and have even 1000 others vote, even if maybe 50 of that 1000 are your "inactive" members and 100 of them are your crooks or dishonest people. That's still a better representation of the members as a whole than the 100 people that were at this last meeting.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

"Do you really think there are so many dishonest people it would change the outcome of a vote?"

How long have you been in horses? If I had a nickle for every dishonest horse person I've met..well...I'd have enough money to pay for you all to fly out to the meeting. You want examples, send me a PM and I'll be more than happy to tell you all about all the dishonest people I've met/know. Of course names will be withheld to protect the guilty. But I do have some funny stories.

Longer than you've been alive, dear. OH!