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li'l bit

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I don't know what causes them but I have read about a lot of people whose horses had a reaction from Zimectrin Gold. Their horse's tongue and gums turned BLACK. I believe it was temporary though. Even so, I'm not gonna take a chance with mine.
 

whitney

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Yep I recently read that it caused mouth ulcers from a couple of different sites. A couple of my horses had mouth ulcers and I checked my records and sure enough it was after worming with Zimecterin Gold I switched to Equimax.
 
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Kathy2m

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Zimectrin Gold with my friends Arab, mouth swelled. She has 3 only effected the one.
 

whitney

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Nathan they are slightly different I wonder if it has to do with the carrier they use as Equimax is STRONGER.

Equimax

Ivermectin 1.87

Praziquantel 14.03

Zimectin Gold

Ivermectin 1.55

Praziquantel 7.75
 

Bess Kelly

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I have used Equimax since slightly after it came out. My vet had been involved with testing for these combos and told me Equimax has less issues. Never had a problem yet and my 42 have all had it at least 3 or 4 times....at least once a yr for each.
 

Minimor

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Yes, I've heard of many horses having reactions to the Zimectrin Gold; Equimax has something different in its formula that makes it less irritating to the horse's mouth--I've even been told what that difference is, but I didn't retain it
 

whitney

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Hey Nathan

its % in BOTH products.

Can anyone address the reaction part of my question..............................

Do you feel a reaction is caused by worm overload or just a sensitivity to the product?

I recently switched to an oxibendazole product, horses where rubbing tails out 6 weeks after worming with equimax. I had never used this product before.

I wormed every 8 weeks prior with zimecterin. All of my horses got loose and my mini mare coliced but was fine the next day. I wormed again 2 weeks later and all horses got loose again but the mini mare did not colic this time.

I believe I had resistent worms (pinworms and maybe something else) as the tail rubbing stopped after the 2nd dose.
 
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Nathan Luszcz

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Okay, that's what I thought... so if its percent, next question is what is the total volume of chemical in each? I believe they are the same...
 

whitney

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Nathan I think your pulling my leg now if you know the answer just spit it out.....

I can't remember but I think the equimax treats a heavier horse.

Do you know what the carriers are in each product because if we have the same amount of active ingredient the carrier must be what's causing the reaction......

edited to add

Equimax IS stronger 7.75% to 14.03% and the weight difference is only 400 pounds.
 
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Nathan Luszcz

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That's what I was trying to get at :p I have no idea what the answer is, I believe that the dose of chemicle per pound of treated animal (ie amount of wormer per 100lbs of bodyweight) is the same. The difference would be the paste part of the drug, and that is "secret"...

As far as the reaction... killing too many worms too quickly with a "hard hitting" dewormer like Ivermectin can cause endotoxins to be released, which can lead to the same negative effects as a serious colic, grain overload, etc.

It sounds to me like perhaps you did have a problem with worm overload... because the horse coliced the first time and not the second, with the same drug, seems to indicate that the problem wasn't with the wormer but instead was a result of the treatment, just like you thought
 

whitney

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Never thought I would do the HAPPY DANCE for a worm overload but I am right this moment doing it.

Thanks Nathan, do you think I should keep worming them with the same product until I don't get the loose stool reaction?

anyone else with thoughts.........................

Oh an by the way Nathan put your tongue back in your mouth!
 
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Nathan Luszcz

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lol make me :p

Hmm... well, the wormer itself can cause that kind of reaction, as far as loose stools... I know that I definately get loose stools when I eat Ivermectin. (Seriously, lol... tmi?) That I wouldn't call a "reaction" per se, more a side effect. I wouldn't consider that unusual or bad, especially if it only lasts a day. If you SEE worms, or have another sign of something happening that needs assistance, I'd wait a week then redose, probably with a DIFFERENT wormer that still targets the same type of worm that you suspect. That way you'll get any that were resistant to the first wormer. There is nothing wrong with heavy dosing of ivermectin, panacur, etc, but other wormers are much more sensative and should be used with more time between doses. Worming twice in a week with a "mild" wormer wouldn't bother me at all.

If you really suspect something serious, I'd give a Panacur Power Pak (double dose, five days in a row) or an Ivermectin/Praziquantal product (like Equimax or Ivermectin Gold). For some issues, especially skin-type worms, a dose of ivermectin/praziquantal every few days for a week isn't an unusual treatment.

What I'd really suggest is Quest Plus (moxidectin/praziquantel) but I know how sensetive that product is to mini people
Dosed incorrectly, or apparently if the wind is blowing wrong, you can seriously hurt/kill a mini... its not a huge risk (numbers-wise) but the consequences are pretty severe (death) so most folk avoid Quest like the plauge, as far as minis are concerned. I use it every year on all my big horses and think its the best wormer product avaliable. It works by "loading" the body with the wormer chemical, which resides in fat deposits. Animals with too little fat, or too little percentage of body fat (minis), will release the wormer too fast, overloading the liver and leading to death.
 

whitney

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Cool thats what I was going to do.

Agree with the loose stools being reaction to chemical not overload. I am waiting 2 weeks and will double dose with Equimax. I already tried the 5 day double dose panacur and have since discovered research from Kentucky that horses are becoming resistant to panacur, this mare did not have ANY reaction when using the panacur.

Please tell me you don't REALLY eat ivermectin.

I really hate the internet.......as your not able to take care of insolence............................
 

Nathan Luszcz

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None of my horses have any side effects when they are wormed... I wouldn't say that just because she doesn't react to the panacur means it doesn't work. Quest is really the only wormer out there that has no resistance in any horse in any region.
 

whitney

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I know BUT I'm just not a GAMBLER my luck I'd have the fatal reaction because I didn't get their weight right.
 

whitney

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I JUST RECEIVED THIS EMAIL FROM A FRIEND

Candie, our 5 month old mini filly, was hospitalized in Fayetteville this morning, and died a little while ago. I wanted to let you know what happened, so this won't ever happen to you.

She was still not gaining weight well, despite all the supplements & worming etc, so Dr. Helton suggested trying Zimecterin Gold (ivermectin + praziquantel) just in case she had tapeworms. I don't usually use that wormer, and wouldn't normally on a foal anyway, but Tracy thought it might help since nothing else had worked.

We gave it to her, a tiny amount, Saturday afternoon. She did do a lot of lip-smacking/chewing right after.

Yesterday afternoon she was quiet and didn't eat as well as usual, but nothing dramatically different, and she was drinking. Early this morning she was sticking her whole face down into the water bucket, splashing, & wouldn't eat her mash. When I looked in her mouth, thinking maybe she had a tooth problem (like Trinket did), I was totally shocked - her inner lips, gums, and tongue were covered in awful ulcers & blisters, everywhere inside her mouth. We called the horse hospital in Fayetteville & rushed her over there. She was put on IV fluids, two IV antibiotics, steroids and pain med, and would need a feeding tube tomorrow if not improved. Dr. Smith said he's seen this before, and that "Zimecterin Gold is like battery acid, I don't use it". A bigger stronger horse might have been able to tolerate a reaction, but not little Candie.

After hitting the internet, it does look like there have been others who have had similar reactions, many with massive mouth swelling.

PLEASE think twice before using this wormer. This tiny filly did have some problems anyway, but massive mouth ulceration from a wormer was not one of them, and that's what caused her death, in under 48 hours. It may have been esophageal & gastric as well. I'm glad that it was ME who gave it to her, not Anna or Meredith, because from now on it's going to be really hard for us to worm our horses.
 

gvpalominominis

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If you read it on the internet... it must be true and fact, right?

The Candie post was crossed posted from another post. It is horrible anytime a horse or animal dies like that. We wouldn't wish it on any animal. It’s always good to hear people share their experiences and consider those experiences to help us make logical decisions on what we may or may not do in the future. Unfortunately, the person offering the story could not provide additional evidence that the cause of death was strictly from the use of the wormer Zimectrin Gold. They did not offer the answer to the question if they could confirm if the filly had sores in her mouth prior to being given the wormer or if she was receiving any other medications at the time she was dosed with the wormer too.

I like to rely on facts and prefer to go to the source regarding getting those facts before shouting the "sky is falling" or condemning a product to others... although I may choose not to use something due to an incident. I have a mare that breaks out in bumps (hive like) if she's fed beet pulp or if there is a grain that has a lot of beet pulp in it (some complete feeds have beet pulp as their additional roughage)... so I don't feed her beet pulp, but I still feed it to my other horses that don't have a problem with it.

I just got off the phone with Merial, the manufacturer of Eqvalan, Zimectrin and Zimectrin Gold. They also manufacture UlcerGard, Gastrogard and several other widely used products. The Vet Technician I spoke to said that they have heard of some swelling in the month occurring, but it was determined that the horses already had cuts or sores in their mouth that became irritated. She said that she had not heard of ANY deaths occurring due to proper administration of the products nor the blackened tongue syndrome. She could not divulge the carrying agent (formula that makes the paste) for Zimectrin Gold as she said that not only did she not know what that was, but that it is proprietary information. IMPO don't think there is any way to know if a horse will have an allergic reaction to a wormer or carrying agent until after they've been given it and they have that reaction. She also referenced that compared to the number of product sold, the incident of complaint was a very very low percentage.

I'm also not naive enough to think that the manufacturer would share every complaint that's been made about their product. I guess my point is, use this type of information to help make decisions about what's right for your usage and that everyone loves a scandal.
 

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