World Mag

[HGFarm]

POA DOES recognize horses that are over height. They are allowed to be used as breeding stock, just not shown.

The folks that complained about not being able to exhibit their solid Appies were some big money people who spent a fortune on thousands of dollars to so-and-sos racing QH stud fee and oh darn, got a solid horse that couldnt race. Big breeders were losing big money... So the rules were changed not because the majority of the members wanted it to (hmmm reminds me of a recent meeting that passed a change in where Minis were to be measured) and the solids were allowed to compete. If I wanted a horse that looked like a QH, then I would have bought one. When I opened the Appaloosa breed magazine and thought I was reading a QH magazine by the pics... that was enough for me. We had been using them for work horses, showing, competing and breeding for a few years, but I did not like the direction they were heading, and do not like what I see of many today. The breed has been ruined, in my opinion, by too much outcrossing to horses that do not resemble, nor carry the same genetics as another Appy. AND are allowed to outcross to horses that <gasp> carry PINTO/PAINT genes, which is NOT allowed in the Appy world.

The QH registry worked since 1940 to make it's 'breed' solid colored too, and for years refused to recognize Pintos or Paints that had two registered QH parents as a QH, but that certainly changed, so why will the Minis be any different? Color, height, it doesnt matter why the horse is being excluded. If both parents are registered in that breed registry, how can it be excluded, if the registry is saying it's a 'breed'? Any registry for that matter.... If I breed a guinea pig to a guinea pig, is the offspring not a guinea pig, regardless of color, size or hair type?

I think this is going to create some issues, personally...........

 

[fastrack]

The founding members of AMHA decreed that a miniature horse is under 34". They worked long and hard to make this a breed that just happens to be under 34".
So if the registry or association is to recognize ANYTHING over 34 or 38" if it has "Registered" parents, why not just CALL THEM PONIES??? It's not a conformational fault. It's a breed disqualification.

Because most Miniature Horses that are not small hackneys or moderns don't have extreme action, and have better temperments. Go ahead, I have my flame proof suit on. They have a different look from ponies. So let them be a breed of their own!!!

There's a reason that miniature shows have more entries and more animals. Because they are easier to handle and more fun to show.

This may have changed, but the POA association would not recognize animals over 56". Does that make them a height breed? Appaloosa's can't be under 56". Do you see a pattern here? (No pun intended!!)

The ApHC used to require color on their show horses. A few people complained that because THEIR horses, out of registered stock, didn't have color. So instead of refining their breeding programs, they *itched and complained and got the rule changed. So look at that "Breed" today and you will find many appaloosa's that you cannot tell from Quarter Horses because they have lost the ONE thing that differentiated them - COLOR! My friend used to raise appys, and her stallion - who was a 3 time ApHC state champion - was blanketed, beautiful, and 3/4 Quarter Horse.

Are we going to allow the same thing to happen to the miniature horse breed????

Very well said. I think I'll print and frame!!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Right, first off to be a breed an animal must be recognisable as a breed.

Miniatures are not.

Anything under a certain height is alluded to as a Miniature if it has no papers and a Shetland if it has.

UK Shetlands do, most definitely, have their papers pulled (or did until EU regs stopped it) if they go overheight, so do all the Native Pony Breeds.

If a Pony Breed goes out of it's height it was, before Eu regs preventing it, no longer a member of that breed.

Most Horse breeds had height regulations, also, so theoretically at least, it is possible to stipulate height requirements.

However, this is ALL the AMHA has, it has no "type" that is recognisable as a Miniature Horse, any type is acceptable.

This is not so in any other breed, they are all recognisable from type alone, papers just back it up.

The AMHA is closing the book to stop people registering their stock, obviously, and to, hopefully, make the registered stock worth more.

I'm not sure it is going to work as another registry is bound to start up, and this time actually have some credibility, that will take the unregistered stock, we already have at least three, credible, societies in Europe that do this, and do it well, with good shows lined up and many members.

I can see the same thing happening in the States, after all, that is exactly how the AMHA started.

And I do not believe the AMHA was set up to register horses under 34" as , if this had been the original premise, they would, originally, have measured to the withers, as every other horse breed in the worlds does!!

So, you are registering, already, horses up to 36", so, tell me, how can this be a breed??

Height is the only thing it has and we can't even agree on the height!!!

 

[kaykay]

What will AMHR registered horses be? WHat qualifies the AMHA horses to be a "breed" but not AMHR? My understanding is that AMHR started registering minis first.

My bet is that AMHR will also close hardshipping to AMHA and Fallabella horses.

But Rabbit brings up a very good point. Up to now there is no set type for a miniature. To be a "breed" you have to set a type for all to follow and breed to that standard.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I am wondering how much research has AMHA gone thru to decide they can officially become a breed. Cause heck if their are any legal happenings being done what will happen to the registry, what will happen to our AMHA horses?

I personally have always called them a breed although deep down I know they are a height registry. Anything under 34" can be hardshipped into AMHA. Their is no set type, its the height is the key.

Now AMHA is considered a breed, what needs to happen now? For me personally, any horse's registration papers that came back because that horse is over 34" and were voided need to be un-voided and any horse born that go over 34" will now have breeding papers. Like someone else mentioned its a fault. Going over 34" is not desirable, so therefore should not be allowed to show. I have had my smaller minis producer bigger foals, and my biggest mare I had that was 37.50" throw nothing but 34" and under babies. Does this mean now that your over 34" horses going to make people buy them, of course not, I guess unless that horse is truly fabulous, but no one IMO is going to look for over 34" horses if people truly stick with AMHA's guidelines. So if AMHA truly wants to become a breed, any horse that was born with 2 AMHA registered parents will have AMHA papers even if they are over 34" they will just have breeding papers. Now I think AMHA needs to decide what type they want their miniatures to be.

 

[LaVern]

I am anxious for everyone to get the World, so that I can get help understanding. But it looks like they have it covered. It say that over 34 inches the horse is out.

Also, and I don't know if this is a rule or a bylaw, but it says it you want to be a member you can not sue AMHA. ( I guess you have to agree to this if you want to do business.)

It says.

1. No legal action of any kind, whether in law or equity, will be commenced against the Association in any courts other than those federal and state courts located in Tarrant County, Texas; and

2. If unsuccessful in an attempt to overturn Association decisions,action, rules or regulations, to reimburse the Association for its for reasonable attorney's fees, court costs and other expenses in defense of such suit.

 

[Versatility Farm & Training]

Just a quick note from me.

I was at the National meeting last year when this rule was passed that the stud book would close and there would be no hardshipping in 2013. By closing the studbook, it becomes a genetic breed instead of a height registry, where being registered or not is based on pedigree and the parents being registered, no longer the horse's height.

AMHA has several years before this rule goes into effect to allow AMHA to decide what to do about horses over 34". There is the oppertunity for AMHA to allow, after 2013, if a foal of 2 AMHA parents goes over 34" it to still be registered, but not be able to show, but can breed. And also figure out the best way to handle horses that today are from 2 AMHA parents but went over 34" Nothing other then the stud book closing has been made official yet, and there are still several years to figure that out. SO voice your opinions and ideas to your AMHA director and AMHA.

 

[sdmini]

Look up the word breed an you get interesting vague descriptions.

Here is one:

Genetics. a relatively homogenous group of animals within a species, developed and maintained by humans.

Another:

noun: a special variety of domesticated animals within a species

All other breeds have certain criteria that makes them what they are. Our criteria is height, I don't understand (and I've said it before) why can't we be a height breed?

As I've also said before I guess QH has been a color breed until recently because your papers were revoked if you had excessive white or were a cremello/perlino. Silly notion right to think that QH haven't been a breed up to this point? As far as I know they considered themselves a breed from the time they set up shop as a registry. I would warrant I could post photos of a wide range of QH's successful in their fields and most would have problems identifying them as QH. I rode a TB that looked more like a QH than a TB, does that mean he wasn't a TB or that TB's are not a breed?

OUR criteria, our goal standard IS HEIGHT. Our founders were smart enough NOT to say all miniatures must be fashioned after a Morgan or TB or Arabian or QH. Do you realize how small our gene pool would have been, not to mention we would not have near the broad appeal as we currently enjoy.

Saying all that I read something in the last issue of America's Horse which said (I'm paraphrasing) "growth does not come out of our comfort zone." It is a simple but profound statement. I don't know how many people, even those big trainers we admire in the ring, were comfortable the first time they stepped into the ring but if they didn't they would have never been able to evolve into what they are today. My personal eye has grown since my first walk into the ring. My style of horse is the same...with a few adjustments.

There is opportunity here for AMHA to draw up a proposal out of it's comfort zone that allows the AMHA descendants that go over to keep their papers in a manner that is both forward thinking without being offensive to those that have spent their ENTIRE lives striving for the AMHA standard of perfection, the smallest perfect horse.

Perhaps giving them a different set of papers, much like AQHA's appendix papers for QH/TB crosses. Appendix QH can ONLY be bred to regular papered QH's and I believe the resulting foal will still have Appendix papers. The only way to get regular papers is through AQHA achievements, same can be done for AMHA. Yes this involves allowing the 34"+ to show. You already have two of the three big expenses paid for, judges and facilities. Will it make some shows run late, perhaps. The B division classes are very, very small where I live and even at Nationals are not the same size as the A classes so don't know how much of change it would make in that area.

I highly doubt that AMHR will ever close to AMHA/Flabella because if they did and remained open to ASPC they would draw fire (rightly so) from miniature breeders.

 

[bingo]

As I've also said before I guess QH has been a color breed until recently because your papers were revoked if you had excessive white or were a cremello/perlino. Silly notion right to think that QH haven't been a breed up to this point? As far as I know they considered themselves a breed from the time they set up shop as a registry. I

While I agree I think the point many are making is with a lawsuit AQHA accepted the cremello horses are actual QH based on pedigree and papers of sire and dam. Many are concerned that AMHA can not financially make it with another law suit.

 

[ruffian]

"However, this is ALL the AMHA has, it has no "type" that is recognisable as a Miniature Horse, any type is acceptable.

This is not so in any other breed, they are all recognisable from type alone, papers just back it up."

I've seen Morgans that look like Saddlebreds, Quarter horses look like thoroughbreds, Solid appaloosas and paints, and Arabians that look like Quarter Horses. You cannot in many cases look at a horse and tell what the breed is anymore. In Morgans a disreputable trainer passed a Saddlebred Mare off as a registered Morgan and won hugely. It caused a huge uproar when her actual breeding was discovered.

The Miniature Horse world DOES have a standard - the miniature horse is to look like a "HORSE" in miniature. Not a small pony with a long face, extreme action, and cut tail.

Height IS a trait expected in miniature horses. But there is a BREED standard also.

 

[kaykay]

Also, and I don't know if this is a rule or a bylaw, but it says it you want to be a member you can not sue AMHA. ( I guess you have to agree to this if you want to do business.)

That cant be right because as we all know AMHA has lost several lawsuits

Okay a good friend just emailed me

Lawsuits have to be brought against amha in the state of tx.

 

[Versatility Farm & Training]

IN reguards to being able to sue AMHA, I talked to one of my local AMHA directors andyou can in fact sue the AMHA but must do so in the county named in the rule, I think it was Tarrant? That was to prevent lawsuits done out of state which made it very expensive to defend.

 

[R3]

As far as I know, AMHA has ALWAYS been a BREED, if by 'breed', you are interpreting the statement in the 'World' as meaning AMHA is a 'breed' of horses. That statement has been the AMHA rule book for as long as I can remember. It is NOT SOMETHING NEW that is related to the studbook closing in 2013.

The current rule book uses the term BREED in several places.

From my interpretation of the things written in the rule book, it appears that we DO have BREED standards.

I am not arguing that someone won't sue AMHA after the registry closes, but if the use of the word BREED is the trigger for a lawsuit, then people could be suing now, as the height restriction is currently in place, and AMHA calls itself a breed - NOW.

I personally believe that the offspring from two registered parents should be allowed to be registered (even if in a 'separate' division) and be allowed to produce registerable offspring. BUT - I think that it is reasonable and prudent for there to be 'show' restrictions that limit the height that a horse can be to show. Being over-height should be a disqualification for showing, but not a disqualification for registration.

Here are quotes from the current AMHA rule book that refer to BREED: (I also list the page of the rulebook where you can find it.)

(Page 1)

FOREWORD

The American Miniature Horse Association, Inc., was incorporated

in July 1978 to provide an organization to promote the

breed and to maintain a permanent registry devoted wholly to

the interests of the Miniature Horse.

(Page 7)

ARTICLE XI.....................................................................24-25

REGISTRY AND STUD BOOK

Section 6 - Breed Name and Size

(Page 25)

Section 6, Breed Name and Size

Horses registered by The American Miniature Horse

Association, Inc., shall be a breed of horses known as the

American Miniature Horse. The American Miniature Horse

shall not exceed thirty-four (34) inches in height when measured

according to Article XI, Sec. 4 of these Bylaws. The registration

of any horse exceeding thirty-four (34) inches shall be

void and such horse shall not be considered or designated as

an American Miniature Horse.

(Page 85)

THE AMERICAN MINIATURE HORSE

STANDARD OF PERFECTION

GENERAL IMPRESSION: A small, sound, well-balanced

horse, possessing the correct conformation characteristics

required of most breeds––refinement and femininity in the mare,

boldness and masculinity in the stallion. The general impression

should be one of symmetry, strength, agility and alertness. Since

the breed objective is the smallest possible perfect horse, preference

in judging shall be given the smaller horse, other characteristics

being approximately equal.

SIZE: Must measure not more than 34 inches at the base of the

last hairs of the mane.

HEAD: In proportion to length of neck and body. Broad forehead

with large prominent eyes, set wide apart. Comparatively short

distance between eyes and muzzle. Profile straight or slightly

concave below the eyes. Large nostrils. Clean, refined muzzle.

Even bite.

EARS: Medium in size. Pointed. Carried alertly, with tips curving

slightly inward.

THROAT-LATCH: Clean and well defined, allowing ample flexation

at the poll.

NECK: Flexible, lengthy, in proportion to body and type and

blending smoothly into the withers.

SHOULDERS: Long, sloping and well-angulated, allowing a free

swinging stride and alert head/neck carriage. Well muscled forearm.

BODY: Well muscled, with ample bone and substance.

Balanced and well proportioned. Short back and loins in relation

to length of underline. Smooth and generally level topline. Deep

girth and flank. Trim barrel.

HINDQUARTERS: Long, well-muscled hip, thigh and gaskin.

Highest point of croup to be same height as withers. Tail set neither

excessively high or low, but smoothly rounding at the rump.

LEGS: Set straight and parallel when viewed from front or back.

Straight, true and squarely set, when viewed from side with

hooves pointing directly ahead. Pasterns sloping about 45

degrees and blending smoothly, with no change of angle, from

the hooves to the ground. Hooves to be round and compact,

trimmed as short as practical for an unshod horse. Smooth, fluid

gait in motion.

COLOR: Any color or marking pattern, and any eye color, is

equally acceptable. The hair should be lustrous and silky.

(page 91)

CL-020 SPECIALTY HALTER CLASSES

* Get of Sire shall have three (3) entries while Produce

of Dam shall have two (2) entries entered under the

name of the sire or name of the dam; one handler per

horse; a separate entry number to be issued to each

group of horses. The entry number is to be placed on

the lead exhibitor in the group. Emphasis is placed on

reproductive likeness, uniformity, quality of breed

characteristics, and similarity of conformation.

(page 119)

AM-010 REQUIREMENTS

A. Amateur Eligibility

c. Having accepted remuneration in the last five

(5) years for judging or being a horse breed

association judge or horse show association

judge.

I added the last excerpt, about the Amateur requirements as a point of discussion. For those who say that AMHA and AMHR are NOT currently 'breed' associations, then you would allow AMHA and AMHR carded judges to be Amateurs, as they would not be disqualified, according to the current rules.

 

[Humhill]

I guess what's getting me here, is that Miniatures have so many different registries, how can one particular registry say "Ok, only these horses registered with us are 'American Miniature Horses.'" ? What happens to all the other horses? Does this mean my AMHR registered Minis are no longer "Miniature Horses"?

MOST breeds only have one registry or come from particular bloodlines, so it's easy to make a "breed". I've always considered Minis registered with the two main registries "Miniature Horses."

Taken from Wikipedia (not the most reliable source, but still...):

"The level of controversy is reflected by the presence of over 30 different registries for miniaturized horses or ponies just within the English-speaking world"

On a side note - has anyone ever noticed that the pictures that books, etc use to reference "Miniature Horses" don't look a thing like what you see showing??