Why we do it......

[js1arab]

It seems there are often posts on here wondering why small time breeders continue to own or breed less than national quality horses. Here is my perspective. Firstly. My boy is conformationally sound and his major fault would be a plain, less than typey head. However, you don't ride or drive a head. I breed one to two mares per year because I enjoy doing my best to create a quality family horse that most anyone could afford and can handle. I try my best to find loving homes and encourage new owners to try their hand at showing/driving/parades, whatever excites them. I feel my guy is show quality (National quality -no) but I have seen some top rated very expensive horses that didn't do a darn thing for me. When I take my guy places, he is extremely well mannered - kids, physically/mentally challenged, elderly and inexperienced people can all handle and enjoy him. He is an excellent embassador for the miniature horse and he passes those qualities on to his foals.

I also hear people complain about horses sold for under $1000. I am trying to market to families who want something for their kids for 4-H or for a beginner. I am very differently minded than a lot of folks as I spent many, many years wishing for a better life -one with horses and someone to help mentor me. I want to provide that opportunity to all the people I can. If I keep my horses under a $1000 and try to help new owners as much as I can then that is worth more than all the big money anyday. Money is just a thing to be spent, but the joy of knowing I did the right thing will stay with me until I'm gone (or lose my memory which might happen sooner than I'd like) I am not saying those who sell for big dollars are bad, I just don't feel I should be condemned for selling for less. Think about it. If all minis were way high priced, those farms breeding several would soon run out of homes because there wouldn't be enough big spenders to go around.

As far as not showing on a big level to PROVE your horse is national quality. This is why I don't (not saying my guiy is national level as he isn't) but it wouldn't matter as I still wouldn't do it at this point in my life. You see....my birth mother thought too much about her boyfriends and alcohol to spend her time or money on me. I will never do that to my children. I want my kids to be able to have all the time and money I can offer. I enjoy taking them to the shows and it can be quite expensive to show 2 or 3 horses if we all go. Not to mention the fact of the time it takes to condition them. I would much rather be out fishing with my kids than running a horse around in circles. Don't get me wrong. I do like working with horses and do help my friends out with their horses, but they all know that if my kids have activities, they take precident over the horses. Also, I do not like to see my own personal horses kept in stalls and worked every day. I like to allow them to be as natural as possible. I do like to show, but my horses usually come out of the pasture to go to a show and I show at a fun level what little I do show so it stays fun for us and the horses.

Sorry this is so long, but it seems it is much easier to condemn people for what you don't agree with than to try to understand them. I too am against the breeding of obviously inferior horses (crooked legs, under/over bites, etc) but as for type that is a personal preference. Many of the same people who would say that a person is bad to breed a "junk" horse, has a barn full of cats inbred and sickly and wouldn't think a thing of it. I know people who would knock other breeders, yet they spend so much time on "horsey" things and making big money - that they have a house full of heathen kids who act totally unmannered because they want their parents attention so badly and don't know how else to get it. We all have our opinions,various income levels and priorities, so please don't feel the need to look down on me unless your prepared to come spend a day in my life to understand why I do the things I do.

 

[Voodoo]

Very well said, I think you explained that very well :aktion033:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I think sometimes when it becomes a show person vs not show person lots of feelings get hurt.

I do show my horses at Nationals, I do leave my horses yes even show horses out for 10-12 hours a day with the herd (minus stallions of course who are in a adjacent pen.) Raven does work her horse and bathes him and such if she wants to show she has to do her part. Yes showing is expensive and yes I save all year and yes we make sacrifices to show at Nationals- Raven works hard with her horses and at school in fact she just took her last ISAT today and in Language arts was at a 10th grade level , reading and comprehenion a 12th grade level and math (her worse subject) a 7th grade level.. she is in 3rd grade.

I dont show locally alot as we dont have lots of shows in this state. I do see what you are saying and I understand it and respect it. I dont think she lacks my attention but then again I am very blessed she is a very horsey kid. My oldest is totally NOT the thought of getting dusty or dirty is horrifying to her(sigh did I mention she is a teenager)

:

I dont think it ever has to turn into a us vs them mentality (and I realize you arent doing that)

bottom line is there will always be those who breed to anything, refuse to see what they have in front of them and refuse to be honest to buyers there isnt much we can do about that but know that in the long run it comes back and bites them in the butt.

All we can do is our own part in our own way and make sure we feel good about it

:

 

[MiLo Minis]

Very well put and very understandable! I don't think most people on here would have any complaints with what you are doing. It is the people that breed structurally unsound and unhealthy horses and can't be bothered keeping them wormed and vetted and are just in it to make a buck at the expense of the poor little ill conformed horses they breed that the majority of us have a complaint against.

 

[js1arab]

Lisa, congratulations on having a horsey daughter and my condolences on going through the teenager years with the other one :bgrin My oldest son is 14 and he certainly has his teenager days. Thank you for seeing that I am not trying to turn this into an us vs. them type of thing. I am simply trying to show that I don't think it isa good idea to say there is only one acceptable way to breed or show. There need to be different levels and some amount of common sense used. You said you saved and sacrifice to show at nationals and I scrimp and save to let my boys go to dance competitions and of course the teenager is now in dire need of a cell phone so there goes another couple shows I will be too broke to attend LOL. I do understand the want to show at a big level and I understand the need for quality breeding practices, but in my opinion many good arabian lines have been ruined from the need to breed for a certain type of halter horse. They bred beauty to beauty, but they forgot the brains LOL. I know many dog breeds did the same so I think a little bit of diversity is a good thing. JMO

LOL, Lori -my husband dreams of the day when I could just breed without thinking they needed shots and farrier work. He about dies when he gets the spring vaccines bills and is thoruoughly unimpressed when he hears the shoers truck pull in! But unfortunately, I know too many breeders who don't take proper care and I understand that is what many are aggrevated with.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

You shouldn't have to apologize for what you're doing. You're being responsible in your care, providing support to new buyers and behaving in an ethical manner based on what you wrote. Most people that buy minis (in my experience) do want a pet or want to show locally or learn to drive, do parades/farm days, etc. The ones that get bit by the 'mini bug' and want to breed, show on a more competitive level - well you can support them with those goals too.

The majority of the horses I sell are to people new to minis - not new to horses necessarily, but new to minis. The majority stay in contact and I try to provide them with the what help I can - as I feel that is responsible - something I didn't get when I bought our first minis!

All the horses I breed sell with a first right of refusal in their contract. I've also been very fortunate to have made some wonderful friends through the minis, and I do hear from almost every buyer at least once a year on how their horse(s) are doing.

As for showing - it really isn't my thing at all. My kids come and go, but are just as happy to spend time with the horses here. We also have lots of other activities - all parents do, right? So we fit shows in where we can, the horses generally aren't worked as well as they should be, but we do it for fun.

Next year, my daughter and son do want to try and show on a more competitive basis (they say that now!), so we're considering going to the Nationals. It is a big commitment for us with the costs and being gone (on the West Coast it's easily a 16 day trip to the AMHR Nationals).

 

[Fred]

I am a very small breeder who has national caliber horses. We have been going to nationals since 2000. The price of the horse does not mean it is not national caliber. Off bites in geldings does not mean it is not national caliber. I have a couple of national and national GRAND champion horses that I have paid less than $500 for. Actually one of my broodmares ended up being free and she is a reserve national champion. I love all horses but it is much easier to love a good horse than a bad one. Breed the best to the best and hope for the best. Breeding is a gamble and breeding horses that have conformational defects makes you a very poor steward of the horse. I will not breed a horse that is not correct from the hoof on up. I have seen a lot of people on here talk about how the farrier has screwed up their horses feet. If the horse is structurally correct the feet will not twist no matter what anyone does or does not do. My livelihood is horses and yes I do have an eye for them. An eye for a good horse does not happen overnight it takes years of watching horses. All of my horses are kid safe which means manners not excuses. Yes they are "hot" but we have done all types of activities such as summer camps, preschool etc. I am a farrier and at the end of the day after dealing with huggy huggy kissy kissy good boy your not hurting him are you? [after you have been beat into the ground and kicked]' I will not tolerate that behavior in my kids or my horses period. There are a lot of breeder large and small that do a disservice to the breed. Unfortunately they are the ones who insist they are doing nothing wrong. Its the ones who "Well I know shes not great but if I breed her I can sell her easier." Or I just want to try him on a few mares even though I know hes crooked. I used to work for a "big" breeder and there are several large very well know ones [who you would be totally shocked if I named them] who will breed anything because they can. Some of those conformationaly defective animals are advertised in the Journal and the World and a lot of people on here ooh and aah over them. I would never breed a horse I could not see in the flesh as pictures do lie. Flame away

: Linda B

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Well said by all! You get em Linda! :aktion033:

 

[js1arab]

Linda, my post wasn't a cover up for a bad quality horse, as a yearling he stood reserve champion at a smaller local show against some nice horses (the one who took grand was the point leader in his age division nationally for that year and is shown on a larger scale) I am not too dumb to know that he is not the taller shetland/arab looking thing that is winning now at the big shows especially, but he is correct and has been an excellent little guy in everything I've asked. His foals are correct and have done all sorts of things including showing and his oldest foal is being shown to cart in Canada and doing great. I even said I agreed that breeding obvious faults is never acceptable. But one point I'd like to respectfully disagree with is the shoer issue. Something as severe as a twist is most likely not a trimming issue, but an incorrect trim that is left too long before correcting can cause serious issues with both the hoof and the legs. I had a mare here for a friend who needed trimmed when she came. I called the woman's own shoer to do it and within two days she was actually CROSSING HER BACK LEGS :new_shocked: when she walked. At first I thought she was sick so I checked her good. Couldn't find a thing so I asked the trimmer to come try to redo her. I can't say that to my untrained eye she looked that bad, but immediately after he finished, she walked off normal. ????? Also, I bought a filly as a weanling. She was at a sale and she looked like she could be a nice 4-H and smaller show prospect for my youngest so I bid on her. She was bedded in straw and wild as a march hare so I couldn't get a good look at her feet. Well, as I was loading her, i had to admit to my husband that we might not end up keeping her as her feet were totally off on angles etc and made her toe out etc. I told my husband we would give her two trimmings to show improvement and if it didn't look like good hoof care was a solution then she would be sold as a pet only. My trimmer agreed with me when he saw her that her bones looked good that he thought some good care would improve it. It did take more than two trims to get the results I really wanted, but she is fine now. If she had been left that way, there may have been permanent damage to the legs as well as the feet. If she was older and the feet left bad, she would have been passed over as a show or breeding prospect, when in reality, she is a lot of fun to show and if she ever decides to grow up (LOL she gets wound tighter than a clock when she plays in the pasture

: ) then she would eventually make a nice breeding mare. I do understand what you are saying about not blaming the farrier for a natural fault, but there are definitely exceptions.

 

[Fred]

What I mean is older horses that have been straight and go twisty. Most people cannot see the conformation fault but I do as it is my job. Try telling these people their horse isn't correct! I have a gelding that is a national champion that as a yearling crossed his hind legs. It was nutritional. I have known him since he was a day old and he was correct when he was born. My horses are NOT the shetland type they are just good horses in fact the "big breeder" told me that my gelding was ugly and would not amount to anything. He even had my husband convinced of it. Needless to say he has had to eat those words many times over as this "ugly" gelding beat his $6000 gelding in halter as a two year old and took supreme over his $12,000 breeding stallion. It doesn't matter if the horse is in style or not a good horse is a good horse and will win no matter what. A lot of my horses were gotten as "wild and woolies" and had never been trimmed. They are also left longer as they drive. A really good horse will be correct no matter how long the feet are. Linda B

 

[Songcatcher]

js 1arab, you have said it so well. I commend you for your attitude. Thanks for your post. :aktion033:

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]OH LINDA ( Fred) You are so a woman after my own heart.... we have similar tast in horses too....My favorite part of your post was "I dont tolerate that sort of behavior from my kids or my horses!"[/SIZE]

My horses are all my pets, all but 2 of the 10 are show horses as well. I love them but they are all diciplined when they need it to whatever degree is needed. When you do my horses feet havent I said"treat it like your own and do whatever you need to " ? I am also a small breeder, I have paid as little as 1000 for a national champion horse.... not as lucky as Linda in my shopping but..... I have paid 500 for one of the best mares in the business Bailey..... she was older and not handled and not even registered when I bought her... but look at her and what she produces... Ditto was an exceptional colt and ...if she ever decides to let this one out he will also be exceptional by Steel. There are bargains out there but you have to know what you are looking at when you buy and go for excellence not just cheap. I do this because I raised my children doing this and it taught them respect for people and animals, dicipline, hard work ethics and kept them out of trouble because they were most always at 4h or with me at a show. I do it now because I am competative by nature and love to show and I breed for myself first to have something to show and sell what I dont keep. Excellent bred to Excellent still nets you a % of pets for others. Something very minimal that I would not consider show quality someone else would love to have for a pet.

Lyn

 

[Windstorm Minis]

:aktion033: Excellent posts....all very well said!! :aktion033:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I couldnt agree more about manners now dont get me wrong my horses arent perfect they are however safe for anyone to hold and be around. SOmetimes they get pushy for treats but that is about the worst they do. Even my stallions we now have a 2 yr old colt who is learing to hand breed. Raven can hold him on a loose lead (I never use a chain) less then 2 ft away from the mare who is showing to him.. he will stand there and not nicker or whinny at her until I tell him he can go to her I have no tolorence for unsafe horses period no matter how big or small.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Our Vet just commented on Sat how well behaved our boys were when we took them in for their Coggins. She said most of the minis they do are terrors... well, we treat our guys like HORSES, not like DOGS.

:

Lucy

 

[Amy]

Our Vet just commented on Sat how well behaved our boys were when we took them in for their Coggins. She said most of the minis they do are terrors... well, we treat our guys like HORSES, not like DOGS.

:

Lucy

well, that being said -- our DOGS are also very well mannered & behave also when they go to the vet's. We also show our dogs. but, kids, horses, dogs etc-- they all have to "learn" their manners at home.

I am also VERY proud of the young people that we take to shows.

 

[Reble]

OH LINDA ( Fred) You are so a woman after my own heart.... we have similar tast in horses too....My favorite part of your post was "I dont tolerate that sort of behavior from my kids or my horses!"

My horses are all my pets, all but 2 of the 10 are show horses as well. I love them but they are all diciplined when they need it to whatever degree is needed. When you do my horses feet havent I said"treat it like your own and do whatever you need to " ?

SORRY guys I agree with well manered horses, but do not agree with how you will dicipline my horse, (example) hitting a horse with a closed hand, or kicky it because it's kicking out because a farrier has it off balance, or foal got out of mare's site.

There is good and bad with eveything, I am just talking about my experiences with my own eyes.

Trainers that abuse your horse when your backs are turned or out of your site.

Word of mouth is the best Advertising people can hear or see.

I still want to have the say how my animals are treated, not how you might want to treat them.

Or I do move on.

The old saying never a bad horse just a bad handler.

: there is exceptions.

: Again, I do agree, your horse should be a well mannered horse.

Just had to vent here.

:

 

[bfogg]

I just would like you that don't know Linda to know I have known her a long time and would turn any of my horses over to her to do anything with and would not worry for even a second!

In fact I was always amazed at the patience she had with some of those horses, she was just very quietly persisent and would just quietly and calmly get what ever she needed to do done!

I have a 23 year old gelding that was res national champion and was good in his day but he has a right front leg that was crooked from the knee down.

The first time linda trimmed him, he was well into his teens I was telling her how it bothered me that foot turned out so bad, she said watch and she did something and I looked and my jaw dropped to the floor, it looked perfectly straight! Now she explained it was just an optical illusion but it floored me.

She did not cut his hoof all up, nor cut his hoof severely at all, she would not do that to a horse, all she used

was a file and made 2 passes I swear and it was incredible

Now it was not permanent it does not matter he is not used and just hangs out and demands he get his due in treats and attention,but it does show what a trully knowledgable farrier can do.

Linda is the best in my opinion!

Again I have watched her handle some rank horses and she is wonderful! She may be cursing inside but they don't know it!!!

Have a good night

Bonnie

 

[Mercysmom]

Lisa, congratulations on having a horsey daughter and my condolences on going through the teenager years with the other one :bgrin My oldest son is 14 and he certainly has his teenager days. Thank you for seeing that I am not trying to turn this into an us vs. them type of thing. I am simply trying to show that I don't think it isa good idea to say there is only one acceptable way to breed or show. There need to be different levels and some amount of common sense used. You said you saved and sacrifice to show at nationals and I scrimp and save to let my boys go to dance competitions and of course the teenager is now in dire need of a cell phone so there goes another couple shows I will be too broke to attend LOL. I do understand the want to show at a big level and I understand the need for quality breeding practices, but in my opinion many good arabian lines have been ruined from the need to breed for a certain type of halter horse. They bred beauty to beauty, but they forgot the brains LOL. I know many dog breeds did the same so I think a little bit of diversity is a good thing. JMO

LOL, Lori -my husband dreams of the day when I could just breed without thinking they needed shots and farrier work. He about dies when he gets the spring vaccines bills and is thoruoughly unimpressed when he hears the shoers truck pull in! But unfortunately, I know too many breeders who don't take proper care and I understand that is what many are aggrevated with.

If it wasn't for the kind breeders who sold us horses that did not have the mortgage-only price tags, I never could have afforded to get into miniatures.

: And one of those horses went on to be a multi-champion performance horse and earned her Hall of Fame in three performance disciplines....

: She will never be a halter champion but she fits the bill for us a hundred fold!

My hubby dies every time I spend something on my horses - vet, farrier or show...but he goes fishing and hunting so I can argue right back! Men are worse with hunting and fishing gear than any lady ever was with horse gear!

Diversity is good - look what happened in the QH breed with Impressive... friends of mine had a QH mare who died from the HYPP (I think that is what it is called) complication - coming in from the pasture she dropped dead of a heart attack. She had Impressive in her pedigree. I always worry when I hear about a "hot stallion" and folks that line breed... "top and bottom" - lack of diversity in the gene pool leaves one open to all that is good about the horse and all that is bad, doubled on both sides! JMHO!

When I bred show rabbits, I went for outcrosses and had good luck keeping Pasturella out of my herd... it is a normal bacteria in a barn but inbreeding made some rabbits more susceptible to it.

My applause for your responsible breeding plan! As other posters said, there are folks out there just breeding to turn a buck... and that is when the breed as a whole suffers.

Denise

Silversong Farm