When will people stop breeding

[ruffian]

I have 3 mares bred for next year and I am planning on selling them. That's why I bred them. The European market prefers to buy mares that are bred. Looking at the reputable market, that's where many horses are going. And say what you want, but people will look at a mare's breeding record for buying. I know I do. There's too many shysters out there who will claim the foals weren't registered, or just cutting back on breeding, when the mare has a real problem and cannot be bred. I looked at a mare last year, daughter of a TOP stallion - won't mention names - who was at a good sale listed as a "regumate" mare. The owner told me privately that they had never been able to get her in foal, regumate or otherwise.

In today's market it makes sense to not breed mares, but there's too much history in the horse sale world to take a strangers word on the breedability of a mare. If I'm buying a mare, I want to have the option to get a foal out of her.

I also have 2 mares that I am putting in driving next year. One is 8 and never been bred, and the other (7) had her first foal last year.

I had 3 foals this year. One was a surprise - I bought a mare as open and she foaled a lovely perlino colt I am keeping.

One was the foal from my park horse by my open pleasure stallion I gelded last fall. The last was out of a champion show mare and a champion show stallion.

My friend raises Herefords, and every time she comes over she asks why my stallions aren't out with all the mares making babies for next year. I tell her it's different with horses - I just can't eat the extras!

 

[Margot]

it is a tough situation. I had 12 mares this year I could have bred, three are currently for sale. I know a lot of people prefer bred mares but I don't want the foals if I can't sell the mares and I am not giving them away. I bred three mares as I like to show and am hoping for some show babies. This year I had six foals, sold one and am keeping the rest to see what I want to show next year. Like everyone else I am trying to cut back but it is slow going as I try to get the very best home for each horse. Mares that have breeding problems are sold as pets but I am well aware that some people lie about them or send them to sales with no information. I am happy to breed a mare for someone after they buy it but I am not going to breed every mare in the hopes that it will sell. I have the room for what I have now, we make our own hay and keep up on shots, feet, and teeth. I would rather sell a horse to what I know is a wonderful pet home than to someone just interested in breeding and getting babies to sell every year. I just hope the economy improves as there are more and more neglected horses out there, we don't need to add to the problem.

 

[user 488]

We have had countless topics on this.

People will stop breeding Miniature horses when they born without testicles or a uterus!

Nobody thinks they are a part of the problem. Nobody thinks their horses are sub-standard.

 

[tinypony]

I have had mixed feelings about this subject, as I agree that there are way too many unwanted animals out there. However, I have a stallion that I would like to breed. In my defense, I have at least taken him to the vet, had extensive x-rays to be sure not to pass on any bad teeth, poor conformation, etc....

With that said, I am still uneasy standing him next year because I don't want to add to the problem. However, people will breed with or without my help so why not contribute a beautiful, healthy sire to the mix? Am I wrong in this? Perhaps.....but I hope to be selective in who I deal with to be certain they know what they are getting into as well.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I hate to digress this topic a bit but Ruffian you wrote -

. . . who was at a good sale listed as a "regumate" mare. The owner told me privately that they had never been able to get her in foal, regumate or otherwise.

My opinion - with the number of mares out there - I wouldn't touch a mare that required regumate to stay pregnant. Sorry, a broodmare's fertility is very important if you're breeding and I would suspect there is a chance of that being passed genetically. I'm not saying to maintain a late term pregnancy where septic conditions have occurred, but if she's not producing hormones correctly early on . . . Again personal opinion, but too me its a big old red flag just like other traits I don't want - bad bite, bad legs, dwarfy characteristics, stifle problems.

Back on topic - yes this topic comes up regularly but I do hope we all keep learning and striving to do better. I know the 'mentor' that introduced me to minis was one of the breed them early and every year type and that is what many first time buyers have as a reference person! I went from her mentality to what we do now of breeding mares for the first time at 4-5 years or older and only a few of our herd per year.

I honestly think most of the LB Forum family try to do right as evident that they're here trying to educate themselves. Now are we all perfect, no - I know I'm far from it!

 

[Taylor Jo]

When I bought my filly a year ago I had a heck of a time TRYING to find a horse that wasn't bred. I'd ask for a mare and people were like well you want one that is bred and I was like NO, unbred and YOUNG. It was like next to impossible to find her. Here's my take on it, I've been looking for a new horse over the past several months and I run an ad every now and again on L.B. I ask for "SHOW and NATIONAL QUALITY" That's what I want, that's what I expect to get. Sorry, but I get ALL the back yard breeders sending me their horses and it's sad. I get a lot of sad stories too and it just breaks my heart. I get VERY few "show and National quality" horses. And when I do I'm shocked cause I have to sift though ALL the others just to find the one that's not. I KNOW people want to sell they're horses but it's also frustrating on this end too when your the buyer. Personally, I think to MUCH breeding does go on. I told my husband anyone that has a horse thinks they're a breeder and it scares me. First thing people say to me when they see I have mini's is, "oh when you going to breed your mare?" GESH!!!! I say she's a show horse NOT a broodmare!!!!! I didn't get in this business to become a breeder I got in it to SHOW horses. I love it and to me that's what it's about, not seeing how many horses I can populate the earth w/. But, that's just my take on it. TJ Also, my hat goes off to you guy's for being responible, kudo's to you!!!!

 

[Kawgirl]

I am not a breeder, but have owned approximately 40 horses in the past 30 years, about 1/3 have been miniatures. I've only bred two mares in this time, both were minis. It doesn't matter if you are a professional breeder, or a back yard breeder, the fact remains that there are just too many horses in the United States. If no one in this country bred a horse for the next five years, there still would be no shortage. Even if your horses is a national champion, or just the greatest horse in the world, it's time for everyone to take responsibility for their actions and quit breeding ever mare in their pastures!

 

[bingo]

We have had countless topics on this.

Nobody thinks they are a part of the problem. Nobody thinks their horses are sub-standard.

Carol I know you have said this before and I can not agree more.

 

[Taylor Jo]

I am not a breeder, but have owned approximately 40 horses in the past 30 years, about 1/3 have been miniatures. I've only bred two mares in this time, both were minis. It doesn't matter if you are a professional breeder, or a back yard breeder, the fact remains that there are just too many horses in the United States. If no one in this country bred a horse for the next five years, there still would be no shortage. Even if your horses is a national champion, or just the greatest horse in the world, it's time for everyone to take responsibility for their actions and quit breeding ever mare in their pastures!

DITTO, DITTO, I couldn't agree with you more. YOU are 100% right. TJ

 

[Danielle_E.]

I agree that with the market the way it is the economy the way it, everyone should cut back unless whatever you produce you are willing to keep forever and ever should you not be able to sell. This bad economy will affect all types of minis, whether pet or national champion quality. I have no mares bred for next year and only had one this year foal and that was a "surprise" from my yearling Jagger who decided to become a man and a father, grrrr, hence Crystal's filly this year that I am totally enamored with

I will probably breed Abby and Crystal to my stallion "Dancer" for 2010 but only if the economy picks up a bit. If not I am done breeding.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

This has been an interesting thread to read. Mostly I agree with everything that has been said. Too many horses are being created each year. In our 'bargain finder' a magazine full of local 'for sales' of various types we usually have at least 2 full pages of horses for sale and many of them are young and untrained. The numbers of minis to be found advertised there is increasing as well. Many are unregistered and not worth the cost of hardshipping, they are sweet pets only, if they are male they are intact stallions. It is nearly impossible to find a gelding. I have sort of taken on that cause and am always encouraging people to geld those colts, when they do lots of those same horses are suddenly not for sale. The owners just find them so much more fun without the hormones. I know of at least one new owner, bought an unregistered mare in June, who is already wanting to breed her and become a mini breeder. 'sigh' I had only one mare covered this year and I don't believe she settled so this coming spring will see no foals born here. Will I miss them, YOU BET, but I have both of the foals born this year still here and last years as well. I am not in a hurry to sell any altho I do have a few for sale. I feel the need to know that they will not be resold in a few months or left out back and ignored. At least here even if I don't have as much time for each one as I might like they get farrier and dental work, wormed,etc and fed. I have taken in too many under weight (or grossly obese) foundered, untrimmed and unwormed minis to let that happen to mine if I can help it. On the subject of buying mares tho I have to say, if I were going to buy a mare I would certainly be much more likely to do so if she were already bred altho in some cases being open would not rule her out entirely. It is as someone said , hard to trust a strangers word that a mare is reproductively sound.

 

[CharlesFamily]

I have hung around here for a while before I joined to post and have read many of these threads. I just wanted to let you know that all of you who advocate AND practice selective, reduced breeding really educated me. I had minis 12 years ago. I also started with a stallion and then just had to have a mare to breed him to. However, the market was WAY different then than it is now. Even then, my horses were registered and were shown in AMHR shows. I only ever owned one mare that I bred, and had two foals from. I bought one mare already bred (that I never re-bred as she was NOT a good example of the breed) and a stallion that I gelded which really was unheard of then. ALL of my horses had jobs besides producing babies - even my mares were shown and trained to drive.

With that said, when I decided to get back into minis, I knew it would not be for breeding. There are some wonderful farms located very close to me. They are already doing a WAY better job at breeding than I could ever afford to - so why do I need to do this?? Yes - the babies are super cute - but that is NOT a good enough reason for me. So I figured I would sit back and buy some of these amazing horses that these amazing farms offer for sale. I really don't like dealing with hormones - so I imagine soon I'll have a whole heard of geldings and that will be great!! I prefer geldings in my big horses and my little ones too. And when I went looking I found a great horse (thanks again Sheryl!).

I just wish people involved in minis would see them more like the big horses - something to work with and enjoy, not just breed. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that these threads are not in vain. Hopefully there are others like me that read and become educated and will choose NOT to contribute to the overpopulation problem, but give homes to some of the amazing horses that are already here.

 

[Marty]

Welcome Charles Family and you have said it beautifully: I just wish people involved in minis would see them more like the big horses - something to work with and enjoy, not just breed.

I have had more fun out there goofing around with clicker training and all sorts of stuff with some of mine. Its just plain fun.

Now I'll tell you all something I did just as a little test a while back on another sales board:

I advertised a "non-breeding" mare. No hits in three months.

I repeated that add on another sales board and left off the non-breeding part and I got 7 hits in less than two weeks.

I rest my case.

 

[rockin r]

I usually stay away from threads like this one....But,,,,,,I will agree that there are alot of animals (dogs, cats, horses, gerbils) ect. bred every year for a profit. It is not just backyard breeders, and NO ONE so far has said that. I am not a BIG NAME farm, probably never will be, nor care to be. As most of you know, I have a small herd 6 mares and 3 stallions. Sure I could geld them, But I won't, yet. Dillion is "MY" main man here. His son Shooter just turned 3, and is intact. I plan on gelding him this fall. He seems to have a stifle problem that has just started, and only seen it a few times. We have had BIG farm names tell us to wait till he is 4. that it could be a growing spurt thing, and it possibly will never do it agian. Time will tell. I have an 18 yo stud, that is just to old to geld (because his mind set is there, gelding him won't change in his mind what he is). We have had BIG horses all of our lives, we NEVER bred a single mare in all that time. No need to the market was/is full of foals. We have had minis since 2002. We have had 5 foals...2 have passed, the other 3 we still have. We did not breed for next year, (that I am aware of!) My point???? Backyard breeders vs BIG NAME FARMS, they are getting the same $$$ for them. (In this area/location) We went to an auction last week end. Top bloodlines and horses that we saw in The Top Ten at Nationals, were going for $225.00 I guarrantee most of the sellers did not make a profit. So is there a market for QUAILTY/SHOW horses versus backyard horses..Not IMO.. And we only breed what we can afford to keep, if we decide to keep them. We have never had more that 2 foals a year, and that happened only once. And when Art and I decide to down size as we get older, (we plan on the age of 60) we will stop breeding years before. I think the breeders who use their horses like a puppy mill, are the ones that need to curb their mares. I won't sell or give away my horses to make room for next years foals. We know what we can afford to "keep". Both Dreamer's and Miranda's 2008 foal's were sold inutero. Dreamer lost her foal, the deposit was returned. Miranda had Ziggi, and after what happened to Dreamer's foal, the buyers of Ziggi told us to keep her, her deposit was refunded. So we do not bred just to sell..If "we" breed it, "we" keep it. I have a mare barn, (nice one at that) that has the capability of stalling 12 mares comfortably. Currently, there are 8 there and of that eight, 2 of them belong to CMHR that we are fostering, because no one wanted them. They were on their way to Mexico for slaughter....

I agree 100% Danielle_E....

"""""I agree that with the market the way it is the economy the way it, everyone should cut back unless whatever you produce you are willing to keep forever and ever should you not be able to sell. This bad economy will affect all types of minis, whether pet or national champion quality."""""

 

[targetsmom]

I second the welome to the Charles Family and agree with your statement I just wish people involved in minis would see them more like the big horses - something to work with and enjoy, not just breed.. How come we never see an ad for a mini that reads like this?

For sale: Versatile 4 year old pinto mare, 8 H, shown successfully in halter, showmanship, hunter, jumper, trail, driving, and liberty; CDE prospect, does training level dressage, cones courses, and also promotional events; quirky personality but also great with kids.

No mention of breeding, pedigree, or National or World Championships. OK, I made this up, but the horse does exist, and is NOT for sale.

 

[miniaddiction]

Ok, this might be slightly off the actual topic...But I was browsing a website for a well known farm and came across a newborn filly on their 'New Arrivals' page, a really nice filly and underneath her picture was a little spiel about her it read "This filly is just stunning, she is destined for our broodmare paddock but we may just be tempted to bring her out next season and show her"

I was gobsmacked! I hate that there are so many people that seem to be breeding horses to breed with!!! There has often been a new foal announced here on the forum to have its owner state "I cant wait to see what he/she will produce for me in a few years"

Anyway thats just my thoughts...I just cant get my head around the never ending cycle of it all...breed this foal so you can breed with it in a few years and then breed with its grand get and so on and so on...Its quite scary.

 

[Magic]

There definitely are way too many miniatures being born every year (same with big horses too!). A friend of mine recently asked me why I don't just sell my two full-size geldings, since I haven't ridden in a few years. Well, because I may just decide to ride again someday, but more importantly, I could not bear the thought of what might-- or most likely WOULD-- happen to them eventually. With them here, I KNOW that they are well-fed, feet trimmed, etc.

As for the minis: I don't breed all of my mares every year, and I show as many of my youngsters as possible. None of my five 3-year-old mares were bred, and at least three of those, as four-year olds, will be shown next year. I have an eight year old mare that I had trained to drive and showed this year on a limited basis, and will be showing her again next year, and she is one of my best-producing mares. I bought her as an adult and really wanted to see her in the show ring, so now is her chance.

I breed for ME. I had five fillies this year, and meant to keep them all, until the repeated pleadings of past buyers broke me down and I sold one.

The other four are for me to show.

I breed for what I like, and what I like is beautiful horses, and to win in the show ring, lol!

The other horses I sold this year, the buyers came to ME. I didn't advertise, it was just repeat buyers and word-of-mouth. If my horses didn't sell, they would stay here with me, as always. I have the room, they hay, and the means to take care of them well. I've never taken a horse to an auction and I never will. If my horses stop selling, I will stop breeding.

 

[bingo]

Again it all comes back to many defending how they are simply not part of the problem. Keep them or sell them doesn't change the reality that almost every horse bred becomes part of the problem at one point in it's 20 to 30 years of life.

 

[Kawgirl]

I hear a lot of people saying that they breed for themselves and will keep what they can't sell.

Well, I understand that your intentions are good, but things happen all the time that is beyond anyone's control and eventually you'll likely find your self in a position where you simply cannot keep all of your horses. Look at all the ad's from people who develop health problems, loss a job or have to move. Very few horses stay with their oringinal owners all their lives.

 

[Magic]

It's all well and good to say that NO horses should be bred, but if NO horses were bred, ever, then horses as a breed would die out. Sure, it would take a good long time, but it would happen. Now, is that realistic? No. but it also isn't DESIRABLE. I agree that there is massive overbreeding going on, but please don't paint us responsible breeders as some kind of villians! We are doing our very best to continually improve the breed. Many of us show our horses and see how we are doing on a local, regional, and national scale.

I say that there is a definite difference between people who breed as many horses as possible in order to make money, and those that breed a limited, prescribed number of horses, with intense attention to conformation, form to function, and good temperament, to name a few "musts". A great number of my horses are trained to DO things, and are shown. There are people who want my horses, or horses like them. Shall I tell them to go somewhere else, where people with no consciences are breeding every kind of conformational flaw imaginable, and not taking care of their horses properly?

This isn't an "all or nothing" proposition here. As the Charles Family stated (and welcome to the board, btw!)

"I have hung around here for a while before I joined to post and have read many of these threads. I just wanted to let you know that all of you who advocate AND practice selective, reduced breeding really educated me"

SELECTED and REDUCED breeding. Not NO BREEDING AT ALL. I've been working toward the herd I have for 15 years. We moved to a larger property so we could own more horses. I COULD be breeding close to 20 mares. I'm not. I had five foals this year.

Now if you will excuse me, I'm going to pull this noose off my neck that so many of you seem intent on putting on so many of us, and getting some rest so that I can get a good start to another day of caring for my horses.