What Went Wrong? Expert Opinions Needed

[Mini~Madness]

I have had horses in my life for a long time big horses and in the last six years just minis. Now with my big horses they all ran together stallion, mares and geldings. No issues. In that setting everyone got along fine. Now with my minis I have never had a gelding till this year (and he is a born here never left the farm guy that was born last year and gelded Easter weekend). So my Stallion is use to having him around the place and never showed any aggression towards him at all and right now the gelding is even running with the girls and stallion is in a stall but everyone is able to have access to each other and is okay with one another. So last weekend I let the stallion out in the paddock to run with the mares (2) and little gelding. Initially everyone sniffed and groomed but everyone was fine and happy. Fast forward 48 hours and we took the gelding out of the fence to give a bath and clip. When we were finished with that we put the gelding back in with the group and our stallion went nuts, basically the stallion had murder in his eyes and actions for the gelding. Trying to kill him. We ended up putting the stallion back in the stall for now, but my question is what went wrong? If anything I was expecting that kind of behavior when we had first put everyone together, but after 48 hrs of harmony I thought everything would be okay. So my thing is what went wrong? What happened in that short timeframe between the bath and putting the gelding back with the herd that changed the Stallions opinion about letting the gelding coexist? Was it the bath? And the fact that the gelding no longer smelled like the herd or what? I just don't get it. I never had these kind of issues with my big guys.

(null)

 

[kaykay]

Could be that one of the mares came in heat.

Some can put stallions and geldings together during winter when most (not all) mares stop cycling.

I learned the hard way a few years ago not to put geldings and stallions together. I know some can do it and say they have no issues but it works until it doesn't work and when it doesn't work the outcome can be deadly.

 

[candycar]

I'm no expert, but It was probably the bath and clip that did it. Was he still real fuzzy when you clipped him? Did his color change? I've heard of mares even rejecting their foals after a clip.

I always clip my girls with in sight of each other because the color change is so drastic on my silver dapple. When he gets his herd smell back and the stallion figures out it's still the same ole friend they should be fine. Good Luck!

 

[circlesinthesand]

Could be that one of the mares came in heat.

Some can put stallions and geldings together during winter when most (not all) mares stop cycling.

I learned the hard way a few years ago not to put geldings and stallions together. I know some can do it and say they have no issues but it works until it doesn't work and when it doesn't work the outcome can be deadly.

exactly!

 

[Matt73]

I would never consider putting a stallion out with some mares and a gelding. Recipe for disaster....

 

[targetsmom]

You changed how he smelled (more than how he looked, I think). But I think the underlying cause was likely the hormones in the stallion (and mares) at this time of year. Things that work in the winter when mares aren't cycling and stallions aren't thinking about breeding (as much!) don't always work in the spring.

 

[Minimor]

I will say that you were lucky when you ran all your big horses together--because over the years I've known more than a few full size stallions that would happily beat up or kill a gelding that they could get to.

As for your current situation--the horses were all together for 48 hours and got along, but that is no guarantee that they would have still been getting along after 72 hours or some other time frame. I have put horses--even just geldings--together and had them appear to get along for a couple of days, then one would start beating up one of the others. Sometimes they just don't get along, and when one of the horses is a stallion and another is a gelding it becomes even more likely that they won't get along for any length of time.

It may not be so much to do with the gelding's changed appearance or scent--it may just be the fact that you took him out of the pen and then put him back in. I say this because I have one group of 3 horses here---a 3 year old stallion, a 2 year old gelding and a 2 year old just gelded gelding. They've been together for a year now and get along very well. But, when I take one of them out--doesn't matter which one, any one of the 3--even if I just have that one out for 10 minutes to work him at halter--when I return him to the paddock--they all react like the returning horse is a complete stranger. They don't get too violent yet--they talk and squeal and fight a little, I chase them off to do a couple laps of the paddock & then they settle down. However, I am going to have to remove the stallion permanently, and plan to do that as soon as I get some other horses moved around to free up another paddock for him. If there were a mare or two added into the group the boys would be impossible--I would have had to separate them long ago.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

My dil had something similar happen her her big Lippizan stallion. He had a gelding companion for over a year; they seemed like very good friends. No mares running next to them, but a paddock with a gelding. Her stallion considered the next door gelding as part of his herd, they suppose, as one day he turned on his companion gelding.

Needless to say, the stallion is in a paddock by himself now. He is a wonderful stallion, very gentle and composed. Perhaps the companion gelding dared to use some body language that seemed dominant and the stallion put him in his place in no uncertain terms.

He might never do that again, but none of them are taking a chance again.

This reminds me of people who have bulls. They stroke and groom and pet them, and think they are pets. Then one day, the bull turns on them. All intact animals, imo, need to be treated with great respect for their instincts.

 

[Eagle]

I had exactly the same thing happen last year between my stallion and his 1 year old colt but they were alone near the girls, I took the colt out for a bath and when I put him back no more than an hour later dad attacked him. I think it is a combination of him smelling different and that it was spring so the girls were probably coming in heat. Now the boys are together from September - March and then they get separated. It' s just too dangerous to leave them together and also very stressful to the stallion who feels the need to protect his rights. JMHO

 

[REO]

You changed his smell. I've had mares that when you clipped & bathed their foals acted like they didn't know their own baby (until baby got it's own smell back) That's why if I put a baby blanket on a foal at birth I always rub it on the foals still wet body to scent up the blanket (once I had a mare not know her baby from the blanket not smelling like him)

And I've bathed & clipped yearling fillies and then their own girlfriends kick her away because she smelled like a different horse.

I also would not have a gelding out with a stallion.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Probably a combination of both the bathing and also the time of year (mares cycling, stallions and raging hormones). ANY TIME you have a stallion out with other horses, things can turn in a instant. Not just after bathing, but anything can set off a mature stallion that has mares around. Anything. It always works...until it doesn't.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

I'm going to agree with all of the above - this time of year, stallions just aren't predictable if mares are involved. Also, whenever I take a mare from a group and bring her back, she has to re-establish her place in the hierarchy. When you first put the stallion with the herd, the gelding had the benefit of being there first, making it his territory, but once you took him out you gave the stallion the advantage.

 

[Mini~Madness]

I believe I agree with all of the above as well. It was just a shock because even my most aggressive mare does not get half as live when re-establishing her position with the herd as the Stallion got towards the gelding. I guess I am trying to decide if I should give it all another try or just scrap the whole deal? Maybe if I allow the gelding to run with the girls again and then put the Stallion in after so the the gelding has seniority? Or since the Stallion already got one up on the gelding will he already know he can kick butt and take names and just go for the attack this time?

(null)

 

[Marty]

You're playing with fire. Cross fence and separate.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

There is no way on earth that I would ever consider putting a stallion out with a herd that had a gelding in it. I have had Arabs all my life and I did not even like mixing geldings and mares, let alone put a stallion in the mix. I think you were just very, very lucky. No stallion I have ever known would mix with mares and a gelding during the breeding season. I always run all my boys together during the winter, and they are fine, except one, old stallion who is not social by choice. I know my older stallion would kill any other male, gelded or not, at present, and the two year old colt is already fighting through the fence with a gelding he happily shared and even deferred to, during winter. Things change in summer!!

 

[Sandee]

I agree with whoever said "it works until it doesn't". My stallion was gelded last fall. He has no big interest in my mare now but he still detests my other gelding who he has fought in the past. I might get away with turning them out in a big group and hoping they are distracted enought to avoid one another but I doubt I will ever be able to just turn the two of them out together.

 

[targetsmom]

I once boarded my big pinto gelding Target at a place with an Arabian stallion. They thought the stallion should have a turnout buddy, so without telling me, they turned Target out with him. Turns out Target (my gelding) attacked her prize stallion and left a permanent mark on his neck. That ended that!!! Target was fine and a lesson was learned.

 

[Miniv]

I agree with the smell theory, BUT I also agree with Minimor in regard to territory.

Before, you said you would bring the stallion into the area where the mares and gelding were, so, in a sense that was the gelding's territory. After the bath and clip you put the gelding back where the stallion was and by then it was the stallion's territory. And what added to it was the gelding smelled different.

Sometimes one has to look at things from the horse's point of view.

Now that Spring is upon us, you may have to switch the gelding back and forth with the stallion to keep peace.

 

[wingnut]

All I have is mares, but I've seem aggressive behavior after baths/clipping in my herd. I think its all about smell and a clean, freshly clipped horse doesn't smell "right". I'd hazard a guess that with a stallion, the reaction to "protect" his mares from this "strange smelling newcomer" results in a more aggressive reaction?

 

[Joanne]

I would think this time of the year that your stallion should be out with his mares and the gelding should be in a stall, not the other way around. Your stallion woul dbe much easier to be around when he is with his mares.

That is, if breeding the mares is your goal.

I am not sure why you have the gelding? Is he for sale?