What is the average length of whip for Driving?

[RhineStone]

My local driving club had someone from the Westfield Whip Company (in the next town from me) give a talk recently, and it was great to feel the different whips. Unfortunately the presenter hadn't brought any really small sizes. I also learned a bit about choosing colors, but let's not even GO there!!! Mine are basic black.

Yes, I think that is the brand of my 48/24 whip that I like so much! The only thing I don't like is that the ferrules are silver and don't match my brass harness, which is why I only use it for obstacles and practice at home.

Are you kidding? Do you KNOW how much typing you save me?! *LOL* My carpal tunnel is quite grateful.

Don't ever question your contribution. The people who learn the most from it (from the letters I've received over the years) are the shy ones who lurk and are afraid or reluctant to post for various reasons.

That's what I assumed, and told my husband, but now between this and Sterling's comments, I have "proof". I don't really want to argue with my husband over this, and I think he will understand better.

I really do thank you all for your nice comments. I don't do it for the "glory", but LOVE when I can help someone out! I think that is why I really enjoy giving driving lessons. I can get so much feedback as to whether or not the student understands. And it is a bonus when they do well in the ring! Until this last year, my students did MUCH better in the ring than I did, because I would get a horse started, show it and get it some experience, then pass it off to my students, including my husband, and then THEY got the big awards! I finally kept a horse for myself and won the big carriage show around here. All of my more committed students won Villa Louis before I did, but hardly anybody that "mattered" (all people matter, but I mean the ones who are more "influential" in the sport) knew that I was the instructor!

Besides- as you said earlier, the only way the rules and practices of the breed ring are ever going to change is if knowledgeable people speak up and ask for that change. I think it is very much a waste of time to say someone else's style of doing things is wrong (and who's to say it is?) but it's not out of line to ask for another style of driving to be recognized as well in order to broaden the appeal of the breed. As you and Susanne both noted not all of us have ADS Pleasure Driving shows in our area or own Pinto miniatures.

The only thing I think is wrong is when a rule is written that nobody knows why it is the way it is other than "so and so does it that way". By golly, if you are going to make a rule, then have enough knowledge to back it up! There are a lot of people that only have enough knowledge to be dangerous.

I think that by adding carriage classes to the mini breed ring, a bunch of those "non-Arabian" types that have been discussed on the other threads would feel they might have another place to be "accepted" in the performance arena, too. That can only help the numbers and popularity of the breed.

Who would it hurt to make sure properly fitted carriage driving whips were legal?

I've used mine in AMHR shows without the judges saying a word but I did have an officious steward try to throw a hissy. This same person told me it was illegal to braid a horse for jumper, at which point I got annoyed and quoted the rulebook at her in both cases. She backed off.

Again, show me the purpose for the rule. If you have none, it is a stupid rule.... Most carriage rules have a logical purpose (except the one about carrying a quarter sheet in Aug., and I'm going to talk to the Pleasure Driving Chair about that, but I digress.

).

just was wondering being our end of our reins are usually brown?

Rein ends are brown because black dye would come off on the driver's hands and clothing, ruining the garment.

That's why lap robes were invented and why brown gloves are traditional too. The whip was presumably made of different materials where dye wasn't an issue. Myrna? Traditional holly whips and such are more your area of expertise than mine!

Leia

Are YOU kidding? I can't afford a holly whip!

Even if I could, I'm not sure I'd want to use one and risk breaking it! $$$!!! My guess is that Holly was used because it was a natural material that was "usable" at the time. They didn't have graphite and carbon fiber back then.

I haven't done any research on Holly whips, but that is a good question. I do know of a lady that had an antique Holly whip that was originally made in England. It was broke because her helper forgot that the whip was still in the whip holder when he went to load the carriage in the trailer and snapped it hitting the roof! Last I knew, she sent it to England to be repaired, but couldn't get it back out of Customs because it had a real Ivory (as in elephant tusk) handle which is considered a "protected" commodity. (I don't know if that is the right word...

) So she was out like $1000! Most new ones are around $450, but I sure don't want to use something that expensive and breakable on my HORSE!

As far as colors of whip go, generally as Targetsmom said, basic black is fine, especially if you have a black harness. Brown or "natural" might be used if you have a russet harness. John Greenall, the Turnout Guru, says to darken that white lash because he can't stand when the lash screams, "I'm a white lash!" He darkens his in a cup of tea! Nothing should "stand out" from the turnout to distract the eye, but it should all make a nice picture. I haven't got the "nerve" yet to dip my pretty white lash in tea, though. It just seems that would be against "good grooming" or something!

I think it would make a bigger difference if that was the ONLY white thing in my turnout.

Personally, I would avoid "colors", again with the premise of it screaming, "I'm a colored whip!" I do have a navy blue Saddle Seat whip that we got MANY years ago to go with my navy Saddle Seat suit. If your turnout consisted mostly of one color like that, a conservative color might work, but the rule of thumb is that if your eye is immediately drawn to a particular thing, then it is not right for that turnout. I think I have mentioned my big white hat that is beautiful, but lots of people complemented me on my nice hat, when I wanted them to say, "Nice Turnout". Hat got put back in the box for now.

I love my Ultralite Whips.

That is another Webinar to request from ADS, "proper whip and cueing techniques."

That is a great idea! I will pass that on!

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The only thing I think is wrong is when a rule is written that nobody knows why it is the way it is other than "so and so does it that way". By golly, if you are going to make a rule, then have enough knowledge to back it up! There are a lot of people that only have enough knowledge to be dangerous.
I think that by adding carriage classes to the mini breed ring, a bunch of those "non-Arabian" types that have been discussed on the other threads would feel they might have another place to be "accepted" in the performance arena, too. That can only help the numbers and popularity of the breed.

Who would it hurt to make sure properly fitted carriage driving whips were legal?

I've used mine in AMHR shows without the judges saying a word but I did have an officious steward try to throw a hissy. This same person told me it was illegal to braid a horse for jumper, at which point I got annoyed and quoted the rulebook at her in both cases. She backed off.

Again, show me the purpose for the rule. If you have none, it is a stupid rule....

Myrna, you know I'm agreeing with you, right?

I think the purpose of the AMHR rule was to keep people from using really long, stupid whips that could interfer with other people's horses or get caught in the railing. The phrasing of the rule is based on the accepted fact that show horses go with short in-hand whips- right or wrong, nobody thought about lashed whips when the rule was written. It was not done intentionally to slight anyone.

Believe it or not, people don't WRITE rules without a reason either!

Traditional holly whips and such are more your area of expertise than mine!

Are YOU kidding? I can't afford a holly whip!

Even if I could, I'm not sure I'd want to use one and risk breaking it! $$$!!!

I never said you had one, just that you would know more about why a black whip was okay than I would.

I figured as our Turnout guru you'd know what the whip stocks and handles had been made of that was apparently dye-fast and so did not have to be brown.

...Personally, I would avoid "colors", again with the premise of it screaming, "I'm a colored whip!" I do have a navy blue Saddle Seat whip that we got MANY years ago to go with my navy Saddle Seat suit. If your turnout consisted mostly of one color like that, a conservative color might work, but the rule of thumb is that if your eye is immediately drawn to a particular thing, then it is not right for that turnout.

Have you ever noticed my green whip in any of my pictures? Or for that matter, the matching green hubs on my Bellcrown? No!

They are a very very dark green, so dark it's only visible in bright sunlight and even then only adds a subtle dimension of color to my turnout so it isn't a solid field of unrelieved black. Nobody ever notices and that's the way I want it.

My lashes are black for the same reason...I don't want to draw the judge's attention to the fact I'm having to get after my horse.

Leia

 

[Sue_C.]

Sue, where did you get your new whip?

Just getting on this evening...or would have answered earlier...LOL! I don't recall exactly the name of the place I ordered it from...but it is an "Ultralite" or something of the like...??

John Greenall, the Turnout Guru, says to darken that white lash because he can't stand when the lash screams, "I'm a white lash!"

Robin Groves said the same thing at our clinic last spring. (Good thing I was using my black one there.) LOL!

As far as the Holly whips go, I just cannot comprehend that kind of $$ for a WHIP! To me, spending $130 was enough, and quite a bit of that was shipping. I HAVE seen some whips that look very similar to Holly, but they are of some other wood...cherry perhaps? They are much cheaper; yet still give that traditional look.

 

[susanne]

For me, the more I spend on a whip or gloves the sooner I'll lose them.

 

[Reble]

For me, the more I spend on a whip or gloves the sooner I'll lose them.

Yes, I was looking at some of the prices, and they might be good whips, but hubby

cannot keep gloves or whips either.

He goes through at least 3 pairs of gloves during the winter. Santa always gives him gloves.

 

[Minxiesmom]

I found a lady here in Oregon that made my whip. It is graphite and very light. She actually used a shotgun shell end for the butt of it, which provides the balance, then wrapped it in leather to make the grip a little larger and easier for me to hold. I cannot use any other whip for any length of time or my carpel tunnel kicks in.

It does reach almost to the saddle and the lash is pretty long.

I changed the popper out to use a small lock of Max's tail!

 

[RhineStone]

The only thing I think is wrong is when a rule is written that nobody knows why it is the way it is other than "so and so does it that way". By golly, if you are going to make a rule, then have enough knowledge to back it up! There are a lot of people that only have enough knowledge to be dangerous.
I think that by adding carriage classes to the mini breed ring, a bunch of those "non-Arabian" types that have been discussed on the other threads would feel they might have another place to be "accepted" in the performance arena, too. That can only help the numbers and popularity of the breed.

Who would it hurt to make sure properly fitted carriage driving whips were legal?

I've used mine in AMHR shows without the judges saying a word but I did have an officious steward try to throw a hissy. This same person told me it was illegal to braid a horse for jumper, at which point I got annoyed and quoted the rulebook at her in both cases. She backed off.

Again, show me the purpose for the rule. If you have none, it is a stupid rule....

Myrna, you know I'm agreeing with you, right?

Yup, I'm agreeing with you first!!!

I think the purpose of the AMHR rule was to keep people from using really long, stupid whips that could interfer with other people's horses or get caught in the railing. The phrasing of the rule is based on the accepted fact that show horses go with short in-hand whips- right or wrong, nobody thought about lashed whips when the rule was written. It was not done intentionally to slight anyone.

Believe it or not, people don't WRITE rules without a reason either!

My husband (who, by the way was really interested in hearing what you all had to say about my posts. Thank you.) and I had this discussion, too, tonight. We remembered when we first got into minis and how you couldn't find a mini whip to save your life. We used "big horse" whips or too small dressage whips, but neither worked "correctly". So we also talked about why the rule might have been wrote the way it was, which is exactly what you said above, Leia. But in the mean time, I think you could probably get any size you wanted nowadays, and the interpretation of the rule is what needs to be clarified or changed. I would hope that people would write rules with a purpose, but I bet there are some out there whose purpose is a little weak or outdated.

Traditional holly whips and such are more your area of expertise than mine!

Are YOU kidding? I can't afford a holly whip!

Even if I could, I'm not sure I'd want to use one and risk breaking it! $$$!!!

I never said you had one, just that you would know more about why a black whip was okay than I would.

I figured as our Turnout guru you'd know what the whip stocks and handles had been made of that was apparently dye-fast and so did not have to be brown.

Yeah, I know you probably knew I didn't have a holly whip, I was LOL when I wrote it!

I still don't know the answer, though. I'll have to ask that question of somebody that does and get back to you all. Me...Turnout Guru...I don't know if I should be proud or laugh!

As far as the Holly whips go, I just cannot comprehend that kind of $$ for a WHIP! To me, spending $130 was enough, and quite a bit of that was shipping. I HAVE seen some whips that look very similar to Holly, but they are of some other wood...cherry perhaps? They are much cheaper; yet still give that traditional look.
Most people don't. You all, please don't get "scared off" by those figures. That is the rare exception. You know, Drs. and Lawyers and those folks have them. The rest of us "common folk" have what we have been describing here. My whips cost from $20-$90 a piece plus shipping. The price of your whip really only matters if you are going to get into really stiff Turnout competition like the Concours d'Elegance, where the most elegant turnout wins. I have been invited to the Cd'E, but lost handily to the lady with the $1000 whip!

Hey, we got a "participant" ribbon for being invited! It's an honor just to get that far.

There are similar whips to holly which are bamboo. They are a little cheaper, but still "pricey" for a lot of people.

I found a lady here in Oregon that made my whip. It is graphite and very light. She actually used a shotgun shell end for the butt of it, which provides the balance, then wrapped it in leather to make the grip a little larger and easier for me to hold. I cannot use any other whip for any length of time or my carpel tunnel kicks in.

It does reach almost to the saddle and the lash is pretty long.

I changed the popper out to use a small lock of Max's tail!

That looks like a very nice whip, Diane! I like the grip! I was hoping you would post a photo of your breed show turnout with your "long" whip!

Is that at a mini or a pinto show? What do the Pinto Assoc. rules say about whips?

Would that lash benefit from a whip reel (is it "stiff" enough to hold a shape), I can't tell from the photo? If it could, you would have a really nice bow top on it.

Myrna

 

[Minxiesmom]

I found a lady here in Oregon that made my whip. It is graphite and very light. She actually used a shotgun shell end for the butt of it, which provides the balance, then wrapped it in leather to make the grip a little larger and easier for me to hold. I cannot use any other whip for any length of time or my carpel tunnel kicks in.

It does reach almost to the saddle and the lash is pretty long.

I changed the popper out to use a small lock of Max's tail!

That looks like a very nice whip, Diane! I like the grip! I was hoping you would post a photo of your breed show turnout with your "long" whip!

Is that at a mini or a pinto show? What do the Pinto Assoc. rules say about whips?

Would that lash benefit from a whip reel (is it "stiff" enough to hold a shape), I can't tell from the photo? If it could, you would have a really nice bow top on it.

Myrna

Myrna, I don't have any pictures of my longer whip, but it is about 8 inches longer than this one. I can't put my hands on my Pinto rule book at the moment, but I don't recall it saying anything about whip length. Tell me what the benifits of the whip reel are? Could it be installed into the existing lash, which is hollow and very limp? I don't understand the advantages of having it. Please explain.

 

[RhineStone]

A whip reel is something on which you hang bow top whips to maintain their shape. There are grooves cut into the wood by which the whip is hung by the lash near the shaft. You can see the "result" of the whip reel on my photo on this thread of my Meadowbrook style cart. It keeps the shape of the top of the whip nice and round, therefore reducing the opportunity of the lash "creasing", cracking, and breaking where it meets the shaft.

Here is a photo of one we installed in our trailer for transport and storage at the shows. Most are completely round, instead of "missing" the bottom, but this was my husband's first attempt at making one. The pipe insulation at the bottom keeps the whips from flopping around while we are moving. Otherwise, the whip handles hang "loose" when they are in our tack room, with the whip only being held by the lash.

Your whip looks like it would look really nice with a nice bow, but maybe the lash is too "floppy"?

You would have to try it to find out.

The same thing can be done with a half-used roll of of duct tape, a small coffee or large tuna can, etc., but you'd have to "tie" the whip up to hold it there. I did that once by putting a small finishing nail on the wall at the level where the hole was where the popper attached to the lash while the whip hung over the roll of tape. Then I put the lash/popper hole on the nail, and hung the whip over the tape. Does that make any sense at all how I wrote that?

Otherwise, whip reels are available from most any carriage supply.

Myrna

 

[Minxiesmom]

Ok, now I know what a whip reel is. I was confused. My whip is not a bow top. I quess my question should have been, what is the advantage of a bow top whip? What does it do different than one like mine that is like a ribbon on the end of a stick?

Nice trailer, by the way!

 

[Reble]

I have found this topic very interesting and just learned what a whip reel is.

 

[RhineStone]

Ok, now I know what a whip reel is. I was confused. My whip is not a bow top. I quess my question should have been, what is the advantage of a bow top whip? What does it do different than one like mine that is like a ribbon on the end of a stick?
Nice trailer, by the way!

Thank you, we really like our trailer.

I don't know if there is an advantage or a difference in types of whips, it's probably more in preference. There are some advantages in using a swivel at the top of a whip in some circumstances, like if you are driving a tandem for example. Some whips are more "correct" or "traditional" with some vehicles, but I don't think it matters so much with mini whips, as they generally aren't "traditional" horses anyways!

Heck, we are lucky just to find whips that are the right size so we aren't tickling the horse's ears with it anymore!

However, if you have a bow top whip, you should have it on a whip reel to maintain the bow, or it will "crack". I couldn't tell if yours was one or not.

BTW, what I meant by posting the photo of the "longer" whip, I meant one with a "drop lash" like you did.

I knew that you showed with one in a "traditional" outfit that looks so good, and I thought it would help people understand that you can show breed shows with a "drop lash" whip vs. just a straight stick. So thank you! I think that is a common misconception that you and others like Leia are working to dispel.

Myrna

 

[MiLo Minis]

An artificial or man made whip has a hard core made of graphite or hard nylon depending on the quality of the whip. The bow is a softer section that is reinforced at the whip end to prevent the tip of the hard core of the whip from breaking through it. When you hang your bow over the reel that keeps the rounded part open rather than the lash breaking over at the tip of the hard core which would eventually wear through it. Holly whips have the lash wrapped around the shaft of the whip and coming off the end. If you don't hang them you risk breaking off the tip of your whip or misshaping it. You want a bow and lash on your whip rather than just a stick with a popper so that you are only touching your horse with the softer part instead of accidentally whacking him with the stiff whip which can hit harder than you want it to and leave marks on your horse. The lash or popper is there at the end to give that little stinging flick when you need it. The thing to remember most when using a whip is that your horse can feel a fly landing on him - in most cases only a very gentle touch is required.

Holly whips are a really strong yet very flexible wood even at that very tiny tip. There really aren't any other woods that compare or could be used. Willow is very flexible but breaks far too easily and most woods that would be strong enough are too stiff. Holly is also very attractive. It is expensive because holly is not widely grown, is a slow grower and must reach quite a size to be useable for whips.

I use my ultralite 48" whip with 24" lash and 6" popper for both breed shows and carriage driving. There has been the odd judge that has commented but not changed my placing because of it. I keep a list of them and carry a 48" whip with a 6 inch lash and popper for them.

 

[Reble]

Love how organzied you are, thanks for the pic of your whip reel.

http://rhinestone-ridge.wikispaces.com/fil...e.jpg/123203001

 

[susanne]

Holly is also very attractive. It is expensive because holly is not widely grown, is a slow grower and must reach quite a size to be useable for whips.

Huh? It grows around here as a noxious weed...I'd be happy to give it away, but oooooh...maybe I should sell it or make my own whips...

 

[ruffian]

Man - I just sold our 2nd home and it had 3 huge holly bushes - the branches were more than 6' long.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

An artificial or man made whip has a hard core made of graphite or hard nylon depending on the quality of the whip. The bow is a softer section that is reinforced at the whip end to prevent the tip of the hard core of the whip from breaking through it. When you hang your bow over the reel that keeps the rounded part open rather than the lash breaking over at the tip of the hard core which would eventually wear through it. Holly whips have the lash wrapped around the shaft of the whip and coming off the end. If you don't hang them you risk breaking off the tip of your whip or misshaping it. You want a bow and lash on your whip rather than just a stick with a popper so that you are only touching your horse with the softer part instead of accidentally whacking him with the stiff whip which can hit harder than you want it to and leave marks on your horse.

Neat!

That makes perfect sense and I've definitely seen older whips where the end of the core is poking through but I never thought about how to prevent that. I think mine are okay for now but I may look into something like that for my pair or tandem whips should I ever get them. I think the longer lash would put more weight on it and probably be more prone to poking through.

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

Thanks Lori for that explanation! That was great!

 

[Carriage]

Again, show me the purpose for the rule. If you have none, it is a stupid rule.... Most carriage rules have a logical purpose (except the one about carrying a quarter sheet in Aug., and I'm going to talk to the Pleasure Driving Chair about that, but I digress.

).


Myrna?

 


I'm with you Myrna. Splain it to me! I too don't understand the quarter sheet thing. But then I don't understand the wheel width "proposal" either. Things that are devoid of logic seem to effect me that way.

 


Bb

 

 

[Carriage]

For me, the more I spend on a whip or gloves the sooner I'll lose them.

Man that sounds like me. So lets put the whip on a lanyard and attach a string to both gloves like we had when we were little kids. Now if I ask you to take off your glasses you will need to know that I am preparing to yank off one of your gloves.....

Bb