What is the average length of whip for Driving?

[Reble]

I just heard on the AMHA meeting average is 48" but not sure what the length of the lash should be?

I do know you must measure from drivers hand and not go pass the horses shoulder?

What is your whip size and lash?

Wondering what the average length of driving whip is?

Hard to find a miniature tack store, with different lengths?

Do you know where the best place is to buy a driving whip for minis?

Some ends are usually to big to fit in whip holders?

Thanks

 

[ruffian]

I use a dressage whip. It's about 36". The tassle is about 8" and is fairly stiff. I've seen whips where the tip of it goes to the horse's ears and have a 15" tassle. The dressage whip has a small handle which fits nicely in the holder.

 

[RhineStone]

I assume you are talking about a breed show driving whip, but in case it doesn't matter I will put in my two cents.

You are right, in order to accurately measure a driving whip, you need to measure from your hand in the "correct" place while you are in the cart to about the girth or shoulder. You shouldn't have to "reach" too far to reach the horse. My 48" carriage whips have 24" lashes, which I LOVE because I can use it in so many different places on the horse, but my favorite is on the barrel where you would cue a riding horse. I can "flick" a longer lash more easily without affecting my hand so much that it affects the horse's mouth if I am driving with one rein in each hand. Technically, you would use a whip on different locations on the horse depending upon the action you are trying to get. I have longer shafted whips for my bigger show vehicles. We always use the lash to cue the horse, because in carriage pleasure driving it is "novice" to use the shaft on the horse.

I have a shorter 8" lash whip that I have for the kids so that they are less likely to get it caught in the harness or cart, since they really don't know how to use a whip effectively anyway.

I have ordered my mini whips from Paul's Harness Shop. The are carbon fiber and they will custom build most lengths of shafts and lashes. You can also get brass or stainless ferrules. They also hold up well and fit well in the whip holders.

Myrna

 

[Sue_C.]

You are right, in order to accurately measure a driving whip, you need to measure from your hand in the "correct" place while you are in the cart to about the girth or shoulder. You shouldn't have to "reach" too far to reach the horse. My 48" carriage whips have 24" lashes, which I LOVE because I can use it in so many different places on the horse, but my favorite is on the barrel where you would cue a riding horse. I can "flick" a longer lash more easily without affecting my hand so much that it affects the horse's mouth if I am driving with one rein in each hand. Technically, you would use a whip on different locations on the horse depending upon the action you are trying to get. I have longer shafted whips for my bigger show vehicles.

DITTO...there is no WAY you can properly cue a horse with a short, stiff whip. Your whip is there to replace your leg aides, not simply to "kick-start" them with.

We always use the lash to cue the horse, because in carriage pleasure driving it is "novice" to use the shaft on the horse.

It is very dangerous as well. I have always been taught that the quickest way to get a horse to kick in harness, is to continually slap them on the butt with a whip...to never hit a horse on the butt unless it is an emergency dire need for speed, as in getting myself and my horse out of the way to prevent a wreck or the like.

 

[Katiean]

I do have a Dressage whip that is 30" with a 5" lash. I don't know what my other driving whips are and one is just a couple of inches longer than the other and both have a lash of about 5" and the lash on all of them is rigid. But they are in the horse trailer and we have snow. Over 2' high right now. I wish when the weatherman said 1-2 inches he really didn't mean feet. We were supposed to get 1-2 inches of snow last night and got almost 2 feet. We are supposed to get another 1-2 inches (I hope it is inches and not feet again) tonight. Anyway, back to the subject. I do not like a long lash on my driving whip. I was told that your whip should reach the hip of your horse without reaching forward. I can not see the reason to have the whip long enough to reach your horses ears unless that is where you are going to use the whip. Besides 99 times out of 100 I never use my whip. You just have to have it in the cart for showing.

 

[Minxiesmom]

My whip reaches my saddle without bending forward and I have a 10" lash if I need to flick the shoulder. I lay the tip of my whip against my horse's barrel to get him to bend around a corner and tap the shaft gently against his butt to do a pivot. I hadn't heard that I wasn't supposed to use the shaft of the whip. I can't use the whip to "hit" my horse, he would have a fit. I can only gently tap it on him or lay it against his side. I would never be in my cart without a whip. I use it evey time I drive.

 

[Sue_C.]

I was told that your whip should reach the hip of your horse without reaching forward.

Sorry, but you were misinformed. Your whip should be able to touch your horses SHOULDER without you having to move your hand(s).

I can not see the reason to have the whip long enough to reach your horses ears unless that is where you are going to use the whip. Besides 99 times out of 100 I never use my whip. You just have to have it in the cart for showing.

To drive properly, and to give your horse the proper aides...you should use a whip long enough to give those aides to your horse. Do you ride at all? If so, it is easier to discribe how your horse needs those aides FROM YOU...to bend and use itself to it's full potential.

To use a well-balanced, and properly APPLIED whip, is of the greatest importance...to NOT use it thusly, is like riding without legs. It is an art in itself, and without the proper knowledge in using one, IMHO, a "driver" is nothing more than a passenger.

 

[Reble]

thank you, I find this very interesting.

Is there anything in the AMHA OR AMHR rule book?

 

[ruffian]

AMHR Rules state:

Driving whips, if used, must be of suitable style, and the tip of the lash must not reach past the shoulder of the horse.

AMHA is basically the same, other than the whip MUST be carried (in hand or in the cart).

So a 48" whip with a 24" lash (total length of 72") is not suitable/legal in the show ring. "A" sized carts have 48" shafts, which go typically to the point of the shoulder. Most "B" carts are 52 - 56". A 72" whip would go way beyond that.

 

[RhineStone]

Since you are not riding a driving horse, the whip replaces the rider's legs. Any cues that you would normally use in riding, you use your whip for to cue the horse. If you slap a horse in the butt when riding it to get it to move forward, many horses would actually buck, so cueing it with the whip on the butt or hip is not actually a safe thing to do. Yes, you generally can't ride a mini, but the concepts are the same. If your horse responds to up and down transitions (go faster or slower) with your voice, that is fine. However, if you need to encourage your horse to place his hind leg up underneath himself to properly execute a nice bending corner for example, a whip is essential. My horse also has two speeds of Strong Trot, one that is a "nice" strong trot, and one that is "beat the clock marathon mode". We call this "fifth gear". Generally, we need to flick the whip once on his barrel to use fifth gear!

By using the shaft of the whip, the driver's hands are rotating a lot and are affecting the horse's mouth. Besides, a good driving horse should be responsive to the lightest touch. Is that saying that I have never used the shaft? Of course, I have used the shaft, but it is usually on "lazy" inexperienced horses that have not yet figured out what a subtle touch means yet. Eventually, we want the horse to respond to subtle cues. If they can feel a fly land on them, they can feel the lash of the whip. It is how they choose to respond to the lash that we need to help them decide.

However, I and other experienced drivers do use the shaft of the whip in less persnickedy situations, like turning a corner in obstacle cones or CDE marathon hazards. Using the shaft of the whip on the horse's side can to get them to turn around faster than just using the lash or not at all. If you need your horse to spin the inside wheel of the cart, using the shaft is almost essential. Again, rarely would I ever use it on the top of a horse's butt.

We actually practice applying the whip here. We set up balls on top of "road cones" that we use for obstacle driving, and practice knocking the ball off the cone with just the lash. You can do the same thing with bottles on a fence post, but it makes the most sense to practice it at the same level as you would be driving, i.e. if you drive a mini, don't waste your practice time knocking bottles off a post that is 5' high. If you really wanted good practice, set up a rein board and then try knocking off the objects, and see what happens to your hands in the process!

The whip is so important in carriage driving, that a good driver is actually termed a "Whip".

Myrna

 

[RhineStone]

AMHR Rules state:
Driving whips, if used, must be of suitable style, and the tip of the lash must not reach past the shoulder of the horse.

AMHA is basically the same, other than the whip MUST be carried (in hand or in the cart).

So a 48" whip with a 24" lash (total length of 72") is not suitable/legal in the show ring. "A" sized carts have 48" shafts, which go typically to the point of the shoulder. Most "B" carts are 52 - 56". A 72" whip would go way beyond that.

You are not holding the whip at the point of the cross bar of the cart from where you measure cart shafts, you are holding it from the seat. This is the point from which you need to measure your whip.

This language is very similar for ADS, but it says that "the thong on the whip must be long enough to reach the shoulder of the furthest horse", because there are also tandems, four-in-hands, and other configurations with multiple animals at ADS shows for which the rules are written. The furthest horse can also mean a single, since it is the only horse.

72" is also assuming that your lash is stiff and stands straight out. Most are fluid and hang "straight down" from the shaft. If you have a "stiff" lash, which I assume nobody in their right mind would have a stiff 24" lash

, that would go past the shoulder. When I hold my whip properly, the lash hangs roughly near the left hip of the horse (we don't hold our whips straight up, we hold them where you can use them).

So I respectfully disagree. I don't think that a 48" whip with a 24" lash is outside the rules. I think what this says is that you should not have a straight stick whip with a short, stiff lash that reaches in front of your horse. That would be too long to be effective anywhere on the horse!

It would be like carrying a longe whip!

Myrna

 

[ruffian]

AMHR Rules state:
Driving whips, if used, must be of suitable style, and the tip of the lash must not reach past the shoulder of the horse.

AMHA is basically the same, other than the whip MUST be carried (in hand or in the cart).

So a 48" whip with a 24" lash (total length of 72") is not suitable/legal in the show ring. "A" sized carts have 48" shafts, which go typically to the point of the shoulder. Most "B" carts are 52 - 56". A 72" whip would go way beyond that.

You are not holding the whip at the point of the cross bar of the cart from where you measure cart shafts, you are holding it from the seat. This is the point from which you need to measure your whip.

This language is very similar for ADS, but it says that "the thong on the whip must be long enough to reach the shoulder of the furthest horse", because there are also tandems, four-in-hands, and other configurations with multiple animals at ADS shows for which the rules are written. The furthest horse can also mean a single, since it is the only horse.

72" is also assuming that your lash is stiff and stands straight out. Most are fluid and hang "straight down" from the shaft. If you have a "stiff" lash, which I assume nobody in their right mind would have a stiff 24" lash

, that would go past the shoulder. When I hold my whip properly, the lash hangs roughly near the left hip of the horse (we don't hold our whips straight up, we hold them where you can use them).

So I respectfully disagree. I don't think that a 48" whip with a 24" lash is outside the rules. I think what this says is that you should not have a straight stick whip with a short, stiff lash that reaches in front of your horse. That would be too long to be effective anywhere on the horse!

It would be like carrying a longe whip!

Myrna

That's the great thing about the forum, Myrna, we can have a good discussion!

The language in the rule book is specific - the TIP of the last must not reach beyond the shoulder of the horse. When I was comparing to 48" shafts, it was just as point of reference. When driving, my hands are just a few inches of my knees, and my knees a few inches short of the crossbar on my show cart. A whip with a total length of 6 foot would reach beyond the shoulders of any of the "A" sized horses I drive I believe. That said, I watched a trainer at a huge AMHA show with a long whip with a long lash - probably 24" - that easily went beyond his horses' shoulders, and he won almost every time.

 

[ruffian]

AMHR Rules state:
Driving whips, if used, must be of suitable style, and the tip of the lash must not reach past the shoulder of the horse.

AMHA is basically the same, other than the whip MUST be carried (in hand or in the cart).

So a 48" whip with a 24" lash (total length of 72") is not suitable/legal in the show ring. "A" sized carts have 48" shafts, which go typically to the point of the shoulder. Most "B" carts are 52 - 56". A 72" whip would go way beyond that.

You are not holding the whip at the point of the cross bar of the cart from where you measure cart shafts, you are holding it from the seat. This is the point from which you need to measure your whip.

This language is very similar for ADS, but it says that "the thong on the whip must be long enough to reach the shoulder of the furthest horse", because there are also tandems, four-in-hands, and other configurations with multiple animals at ADS shows for which the rules are written. The furthest horse can also mean a single, since it is the only horse.

72" is also assuming that your lash is stiff and stands straight out. Most are fluid and hang "straight down" from the shaft. If you have a "stiff" lash, which I assume nobody in their right mind would have a stiff 24" lash

, that would go past the shoulder. When I hold my whip properly, the lash hangs roughly near the left hip of the horse (we don't hold our whips straight up, we hold them where you can use them).

So I respectfully disagree. I don't think that a 48" whip with a 24" lash is outside the rules. I think what this says is that you should not have a straight stick whip with a short, stiff lash that reaches in front of your horse. That would be too long to be effective anywhere on the horse!

It would be like carrying a longe whip!

Myrna

That's the great thing about the forum, Myrna, we can have a good discussion!

The language in the rule book is specific - the TIP of the last must not reach beyond the shoulder of the horse. So it wouldn't matter if it were a 48" whip with a long lash, or a 70" whip with a 2" lash, as I read it.

When I was comparing to 48" shafts, it was just as point of reference. When driving, my hands are just a few inches of my knees, and my knees a few inches short of the crossbar on my show cart. A whip with a total length of 6 foot would reach beyond the shoulders of any of the "A" sized horses I drive I believe. That said, I watched a trainer at a huge AMHA show with a long whip with a long lash - probably 24" - that easily went beyond his horses' shoulders, and he won almost every time.

 

[Sue_C.]

Ruffian, I think that you must be unusually close to the front of your cart?

Or I am wayyyy far away in mine.

This is a picture of an "A" size mare (31.50") in my convertable cart...the basket is out, but that doesn't change where the cross bar is...or where the horse is. This whip is 48 inches, with a 12" lash, and you can see that it doesn't go past her shoulder.

This isn't the best of whips, but I really like the balance for my hand, and it is very "whippy" at the end...I can flick it from one side of her barrel to the other with hardly moving my wrist, or changing the feel in her mouth. The good whip that I recently got, is going to be much better...it actually sounds very much like the one Myrna speaks of.

 

[Reble]

Ruffian, I think that you must be unusually close to the front of your cart?

Or I am wayyyy far away in mine.

This is a picture of an "A" size mare (31.50") in my convertable cart...the basket is out, but that doesn't change where the cross bar is...or where the horse is. This whip is 48 inches, with a 12" lash, and you can see that it doesn't go past her shoulder.

This isn't the best of whips, but I really like the balance for my hand, and it is very "whippy" at the end...I can flick it from one side of her barrel to the other with hardly moving my wrist, or changing the feel in her mouth. The good whip that I recently got, is going to be much better...it actually sounds very much like the one Myrna speaks of.

Thanks so much for the picture, size of whip and lash.

I am going to have to check out our whips to see which one is close to those measurements.

Have to wait till spring to check out the horse in the cart too see if this would be the correct measurements. Great info, thanks everyone.

 

[RhineStone]

This is the style of whip I am refering to. This particular whip has a 48" long shaft (the hard part), and a 24" lash. I got it from Smucker's when they were still in business. You can now get them from Fully Equipped Outdoors (I think). Included in that 24" measurement is the popper, the little black replaceable thing on the end of the white lash. In some circles, the lash is also called the thong. Sue, your 12" "lash" is actually called the popper. That is a "straight stick" American "buggy" whip, generally used in the show ring, where people don't seem to actually "use" a whip. (I would use the whip anyway, as it is considered one of the necessary "aids" to driving your horse, like your reins and voice.) I can see now what the confusion might be as to why someone might think my whip was too long if you are thinking that it is a 24" popper!

The lash is flexible, so much that you need to hang it on a circular whip reel so that it maintains it's "bow top". Otherwise, it will flop back much like a silk ribbon taped to the end of a pencil. That isn't good for the whip. The popper is a little more stiff than the lash.

You can see in this vehicle that my 48" whip is not nearly going to go past the horse's shoulder. Granted, this cart sets me back a little further away from the horse than a Jerald style cart, but I also use this whip in the Jerald style cart, too, and again, it doesn't go past the shoulder. Do officials at a breed show actually hold the lash out horizontally to measure it?

Please ignore my slouching in this photo. We are running Cones, and I was reaching out to give him his head a bit on a long stretch in between sets of cones.

The whip below is the whip I use for arena classes generally, although I actually sold this whip to get one that has a longer lash that will be better for flicking him in the belly. It is from Paul's Harness Shop. It is about a 52" shaft whip and has an 18" lash. You can also see the round bow top shape better in this photo. My sister used this whip with her Jerald-style Wagoner cart with a 34" gelding, and it did not go past the horse's shoulder. I have a photo, but I would have to scan it, and that would take too much time right now.

In order to flick him in the belly, I have to rotate my wrist in a circular fashion to get the whip end to come around. If you think of it as starting with your knuckles up, rotating clockwise, and finishing the circle with your nails up. I sometimes put the reins in the left hand, so as not to affect the horse's mouth at all. He has gotten so sensitive to the whip/reins, that by just moving my right hand, he will engage without me actually finishing the motion.

Myrna

 

[Reble]

Thanks the photo's are very helpful.

 

[Sue_C.]

Yes, my new whip that I will be using this coming season is one like Myrna's. I really like it, much better that my old ones. It is unfortunate that no one at ALL around here carries these whips, and I really hated to order one from far away, to find I didn't like the balance or "feel", but I think I will be very happy with it.

 

[Sandee]

Myrna, I really don't believe that the whip you're using would be allowed in an AMHA or R show. I've always been told that the length of the whip with the lash laid out flat should not extend beyond the shoulder of the horse.

Reble I've found some very nice (well balanced) whips at Estate Horse Supply. If the whip is light and well balanced it's not near as difficult to carry as one of those heavy (cheaper) ones that are farm stores.

 

[Reble]

Myrna, I really don't believe that the whip you're using would be allowed in an AMHA or R show. I've always been told that the length of the whip with the lash laid out flat should not extend beyond the shoulder of the horse.Reble I've found some very nice (well balanced) whips at Estate Horse Supply. If the whip is light and well balanced it's not near as difficult to carry as one of those heavy (cheaper) ones that are farm stores.

thanks, I will check that supplier out.