Western Country Pleasure AMHR-Classic Pleasure AMHA

[JMS Miniatures]

Sorry Myrna, thanks for liking him. I honestly don't think it will go that way to AQHA Pleasure driving. Thats why in the rule they don't want anybody below the withers. Besides with what they are picking no body is going to win driving that way.

My goal for next year with my horse is to continue to drive him like I've always had and maybe some of these judges will be better educated at what this class is suppose to be like. Also going to try and drive him without the use of the martingale I think he will drive alot better without one, he will drive even better if he didn't need to use a check.

 

[RhineStone]

(I should have used the Quote option for this post...

MR)

"This is a bit off topic but I just have to comment on that video.

Oh my, those might just be the bravest horses I've ever seen. How much impulsion would any (sane) horse have when the driver first puts a blindered bridle on them and then has zero contact. The poor things have to move slow and careful, with their nose nearly touching the ground because they can't see more than a tiny bit and the drivers aren't giving them any support or direction. I'm surprised they agree to trot at all never mind extend. I so want to make those drivers wear a blind fold and run around in an arena. They'd get the point as soon as they wondered where the walls were. I'd hate to be a judge for that class too, there was a point when one horse passed the sorrel and they were superimposed over each other. They could have been the same horse, exactly the same outline. How do you choose the best from clones? Then there was the whip in its holder and lets slap the reins on the horse's back to move him forward... yikes...

"

Yup....exactly WHY I don't want to see the minis go this way.....

....all for the sake of trying to be little QHs.

And did you read the comments at the bottom? Someone asked if voice commands are allowed and the poster said "very minimally" or something like that. So not only do they not use the reins, whip, or body (like a riding horse) for communiciation, but they aren't supposed to use their voice much either! If they HAD contact on the reins, they might actually get a nice little arch like JMS' horse has ("We don't want that, now do we!"). Ironically, those horses are bred to be that lazy. You wouldn't take a "performance" bred horse in driving. Anything with a bit of "umph" couldn't survive in that arena under that criteria (no rein contact and little voice). If a mini was required to go that slow, it would have a hard time keeping the vehicle going with the lack of forward momentum.

See why I really don't think that a "type" should be what you all are going for in your WCP classes? Dig your heels in hard that you don't go that way!

Myrna

 

[Minimor]

Ever see a QH pleasure driving class? That's what I understood the ideal was to be, at least for AMHR

I'm not sure why you would choose 'QH' for the style of horses in WCP? Why not a Morgan western pleasure horse? Morgans, of course, don't have western driving classes, but that's not to say that you can't have a driving horse going in a similar style to the under saddle horses.
The rule calls for 'little knee and hock flexion' but for my part a horse with little knee and hock flexion is just poor moving--I do not feel WCP is meant for horses that just swing their legs forward without any knee flexion. I do have a gelding that moves that way (and he isn't as bad as some out there) and in my view he simply isn't a show horse. I wouldn't take him out & show him in WCP. I do have two mares that I feel would be suitable for WCP--they are pretty movers with decent flexion (which does not mean they trot anywhere near level! Far from it.) and a natural carriage that I feel is perfect for WCP. I have a number of horses that I would put in Country Pleasure and a few that I would put in Pleasure Driving.

From what I saw of Nationals--I would say that the one park horse would be my idea of the perfect pleasure driving horse (loved him, but not what I consider a park horse) There were a few pleasure horses that I would have put in Country. When it came to Country there were some entries I would have put in WCP and some I would have perhaps put into Pleasure. As for the WCP--I did see some lovely horses in there, horses that I felt were ideal for WCP. Some of the entries, well, it was hard to tell because of the way they were presented--necks curled downward too much and faces behind the vertical. I call that pathetic.

So few of the Nationals horses (all divisions of driving) looked happy in their work. So many of them looked dull & rather dejected, many looked worried and unhappy in their work, some looked like they were being pulled in too much/held onto too tightly. Whatever division the horse is being shown in I believe he should look like he is enjoying his work, or at least that he isn't unhappy in his work. He should be alert and bright eyed and look like he is a pleasure to drive. I saw too many that just looked painful to drive.

 

[Sandee]

..........................................

From what I saw of Nationals--I would say that the one park horse would be my idea of the perfect pleasure driving horse (loved him, but not what I consider a park horse) There were a few pleasure horses that I would have put in Country. When it came to Country there were some entries I would have put in WCP and some I would have perhaps put into Pleasure. As for the WCP--I did see some lovely horses in there, horses that I felt were ideal for WCP. Some of the entries, well, it was hard to tell because of the way they were presented--necks curled downward too much and faces behind the vertical. I call that pathetic.

..............................

Would you mind telling which horse in park harness or at least if it was in the under or over division? Just curious. I didn't watch the unders but from the still pictures I was wondering why the little pinto Larry was driving in under didn't win? Maybe something happened in the class. Like I said just curious.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

(I should have used the Quote option for this post...

MR)

"This is a bit off topic but I just have to comment on that video.

Oh my, those might just be the bravest horses I've ever seen. How much impulsion would any (sane) horse have when the driver first puts a blindered bridle on them and then has zero contact. The poor things have to move slow and careful, with their nose nearly touching the ground because they can't see more than a tiny bit and the drivers aren't giving them any support or direction. I'm surprised they agree to trot at all never mind extend. I so want to make those drivers wear a blind fold and run around in an arena. They'd get the point as soon as they wondered where the walls were. I'd hate to be a judge for that class too, there was a point when one horse passed the sorrel and they were superimposed over each other. They could have been the same horse, exactly the same outline. How do you choose the best from clones? Then there was the whip in its holder and lets slap the reins on the horse's back to move him forward... yikes...

"

Yup....exactly WHY I don't want to see the minis go this way.....

....all for the sake of trying to be little QHs.

And did you read the comments at the bottom? Someone asked if voice commands are allowed and the poster said "very minimally" or something like that. So not only do they not use the reins, whip, or body (like a riding horse) for communiciation, but they aren't supposed to use their voice much either!

I did read the comments and assumed they were made by people with no actual knowledge of what it takes to be a harness horse or to drive one

If they HAD contact on the reins, they might actually get a nice little arch like JMS' horse has ("We don't want that, now do we!").

Heavens NO

Ironically, those horses are bred to be that lazy. You wouldn't take a "performance" bred horse in driving. Anything with a bit of "umph" couldn't survive in that arena under that criteria (no rein contact and little voice). If a mini was required to go that slow, it would have a hard time keeping the vehicle going with the lack of forward momentum.

See why I really don't think that a "type" should be what you all are going for in your WCP classes? Dig your heels in hard that you don't go that way!

I for one would forgo breed show driving altogether before I'd go that route but then I do far more open shows than breed shows anyway.

Myrna

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I'm not sure why you would choose 'QH' for the style of horses in WCP? Why not a Morgan western pleasure horse? Morgans, of course, don't have western driving classes, but that's not to say that you can't have a driving horse going in a similar style to the under saddle horses.

The rule calls for 'little knee and hock flexion' but for my part a horse with little knee and hock flexion is just poor moving--I do not feel WCP is meant for horses that just swing their legs forward without any knee flexion. I do have a gelding that moves that way (and he isn't as bad as some out there) and in my view he simply isn't a show horse. I wouldn't take him out & show him in WCP. I do have two mares that I feel would be suitable for WCP--they are pretty movers with decent flexion (which does not mean they trot anywhere near level! Far from it.) and a natural carriage that I feel is perfect for WCP. I have a number of horses that I would put in Country Pleasure and a few that I would put in Pleasure Driving.

From what I saw of Nationals--I would say that the one park horse would be my idea of the perfect pleasure driving horse (loved him, but not what I consider a park horse) There were a few pleasure horses that I would have put in Country. When it came to Country there were some entries I would have put in WCP and some I would have perhaps put into Pleasure. As for the WCP--I did see some lovely horses in there, horses that I felt were ideal for WCP. Some of the entries, well, it was hard to tell because of the way they were presented--necks curled downward too much and faces behind the vertical. I call that pathetic.

So few of the Nationals horses (all divisions of driving) looked happy in their work. So many of them looked dull & rather dejected, many looked worried and unhappy in their work, some looked like they were being pulled in too much/held onto too tightly. Whatever division the horse is being shown in I believe he should look like he is enjoying his work, or at least that he isn't unhappy in his work. He should be alert and bright eyed and look like he is a pleasure to drive. I saw too many that just looked painful to drive.

I can't really comment on the Park Harness horses at Nationals because this class seems pointless to me so didn't watch. Hardly any minis move like a Park horse and when you get into the Overs some of the shetlands yes can look like they have a Park trot compared to the miniatures. Honestly almost all of your park harness minis belong in pleasure or even country.

The pleasure class you had some good drivers, but quite a few belong in country. Even saw a WCP horse in a pleasure class.

The country class I don't remeber seeing any or very little belong in WCP. Yes saw Pleasure horses in the country class that didn't belong there has it been that way for years now, but its getting less and less. Honestly the country class is starting to get into good shape.

The WCP class quite a bit of your low end country horses were placing. They were the ones that there polls were above 3", really arched, some behind the verticle, and had knee action. Its not suppose to be that way. heck I will no way say and scream my horse should have placed, he should have won, no way am I saying that, but some that beat him should not have. The really good WCP horses are really nice and I can see this class being a really nice class with tough competition, but we can't have country horses keep winning. This class is suppose to go by the AQHA Pleasure driving guidelines, no way are we near it, but the judges are clearly not reading what they are suppose to be judging for either.

 

[LaVern]

But, I am still wondering if WPC and Classic Pleasure are the same. I don't have a clue about this driving stuff. I always pick the horse and driver that look the prettiest and the happiest and the safest and the nicest. And then if I know the person I clap for them too. Do you think that you should have one of those western harnesses -the tooled ones- for WPC?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I don't think its necessary to have a "western" harness. Altho I think it can make some judges take notice. I like how I did my harness for my horse. He is in a $400 russet harness that I just put conchos on and I have had quite a few compliments on it even by judges. They always ask if it was a Lutke but there is no way I could afford something like that for just one class. Very pretty harness tho.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Do you think that you should have one of those western harnesses -the tooled ones- for WPC?

Good heavens, I have never seen a tooled leather harness. Don't let my husband know such a thing exists, he'd be wanting one for sure.

 

[targetsmom]

LaVern- To answer your question - or try to: I think the intention of both the AMHR WCP and the AMHA Classic Pleasure classes is the same: to provide a place for horses with a lower headset and more flat-kneed, sweeping movement to show. I remember when the classes were developed and AMHR named theirs first. I think the AMHA people had the same thing in mind but struggled with a name; they really didn't want to use "western" so came up with "Classic". It might help to watch the AMHA driving DVD where their driving classes are all explained with plenty of examples.

You have seen the photo of my black and white mare that I consider to be what the judges are looking for in each class. For AMHR shows, I will wear a more western outfit (but still wear my helmet!). For AMHA shows I might use my wooden wheeled cart and apron like I do in Pinto shows and ADS events or I might use my Graber show cart and the same "western outfit" with the helmet as I would for WCP. I will likely use my carriage driving harness and certainly NOT one that screams "western"! I imagine most drivers will use their usual show harness.

I would also love to see the judges reward manners, attitude, and safety, plus a few other things like straightness and lateral bend, smooth transitions, a relaxed but "marchy" walk, and a distinct lengthening of stride when called for.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Good heavens, I have never seen a tooled leather harness. Don't let my husband know such a thing exists, he'd be wanting one for sure.

The Lutke ones are gorgeous. There was another one there by a different manufacturer that was rather clunky. Jane bought one of his first ones for Lotto and he looks spectacular in it. Not really leather, more of a biothane but sure looks like leather! She does use it for both WCPD and ClassicPD. She gets a TON of compliments on it.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Well I'll have to go looking for a picture of them. It might make an amazing gift for him for Christmas or his birthday. Not this year since he just got a new pairs harness but sure something special that he'd be thrilled with. Any idea where I can see them?

 

[LaVern]

The reason I brought this up is that I am a bit confused, and want to brag a little bit. I raised a little fat colt, that I named Two Buck Chuck. I named him after that wine in that a guy in california made, his name is Charles Shaw and he said that a good wine shouldn't cost more that two bucks, hence the name Two Buck Chuck Wine. I didn't notice anything special about him except that he was lovable and curious about stuff.

I sold him to some very nice people and they took him to a very good trainer that said, "There is your Classic Horse." How did he know that?

Well, they drove him at both Nationals and at the Worlds. He did very well at Nationals and was always in top ribbons, but at the World he won Champion in all five open Classic driving- huge classes, and World Grand Champion. The people that own him went back to check the judges cards on four of the classes (they didn't check the one) and he was 10(top) by all five. It was unanimous so they must know what they are looking for. Here is a picture from the World. Maybe if he had one of those tooled harnesses he would have won at Nationals too. They are more western looking.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Lavern he is a pretty boy. He looks like a good mover but not the type of headset I would call western. Too arched and collected like you would for country. Needs to be more flat, be more of a natural head set. BUT, this is an example of what the judges are picking. I don't want to take anything away from your wins, congratulations, but just not your ideal western horse according to the rule book. I can't compare to classic and western, like many have said supposely I thought it was judged the same way. I saw them picking more action and higher head sets in AMHA.

 

[LaVern]

JMS you maybe be right, I don't have a clue. People are always asking me, "Have you got any good driving prospects"? "Yeah sure, like I know" They can all pick them up in a snow bank. I think it has more to do with whether they are willing and handled gently,and trained correctly and like to do it. And of course, if they are conformationally built to do it whatever.

I do know that there were Country horses that were put into Classic that Chuck beat out.

 

[targetsmom]

Hi LaVern- I saw several of those AMHA classes and I got a chuckle out of his name! But I agree with JMS, that to me, he belonged in Country Pleasure, where I think he would have done just fine too! Please don't take offense, because I loved the horse, I just think he had too high a head set for the Classic classes.

That was partly why I suggested back on page 1, that they run the classes starting with Classic (or WCP in R) and send the ones that have too high a headset or too high action into the proper class. Of course, this would mean that the judges would have to understand which class they belong in, and not just pick the one that they like best. I know it will never happen....

 

[susanne]

...the happiest and the safest and the nicest....

LaVern, you've listed the most important things in any driving class (to me, anyway), and what far too many ignore. I realize this still does not answer your question, but then, I'm not the one to answer it...

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Well I'll have to go looking for a picture of them. It might make an amazing gift for him for Christmas or his birthday. Not this year since he just got a new pairs harness but sure something special that he'd be thrilled with. Any idea where I can see them?

D&S Lutke Western Harness

I think this haress is so cool but just can't afford for one class. Maybe once I marry my future rich husband

. I'll be easy, don't buy me jewelry just buy me horse stuff.

My last opinion when it comes to this class. Either the judges get together and take a real serious look to the rules, and go by them, or either competely redo the class to make it like a classic country pleasure class for horses that just can't compete in country anymore. This is what this class was intended for but its gotten big, and I don't think people realized how big of a deal this class is. IMO its not hard to judge what is a WCP horse and whats a country. So instead of us competitors guessing what the judges will pick today we need a standard for this class that the judges will go by.

 

[ClickMini]

I don't think they are judged the same. I think the WCP class shows the horses moving in a slower gait, with a flatter neck. The horses in the Classic Country are slightly more bridled up and moving along at a faster gait. I think 2 buck chuck was marvelous, by the way, LaVern.

Not a show pic, but a CDE one... but I think this mare would be a great Classic horse.

She did not do well in WCP. Her neck is not level. For Classic, Patty told me their eye should be approx. level with the terrets.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

CL-034 CLASSIC PLEASURE DRIVING DIVISION

Balance shall be 50% to rear

The ideal CLASSIC PLEASURE DRIVING horse shall be

shown with light contact on the reins at all times. Ideally

neck carriage should remain low and head set by horse

being on the bit and face perpendicular to the ground.

Stride should be sweeping and ground covering.

CLARIFICATION: Head carriage should be in the bridle,

with poll not lower than the withers and eye of the horse

not higher than the withers. Stride flowing with a flat knee,

minimal knee and hock action.

A. Classic Pleasure Driving is a single horse driving class,

hitched to show cart with either wooden or metal spoke

wheels. A Basket is mandatory, a boot is optional. To be

judged on the following criteria, in the listed order:

ATTITUDE PARAMOUNT Settled in the bridle,

smooth gait transitions.

MANNERS PARAMOUNT No gapping at the bit.

Horse should appear

willing to work.

UNACCEPTABLE HALF CHEEKS

ACCEPTABLE HALF CHEEKS

101

SHOW RULES

PERFORMANCE Steady in each gait

and definite gait changes.

QUALITY A”pretty” picture with

appropriate action for

class.

CONFORMATION As correct for

CLASSIC PLEASURE

DRIVING.

The ideal CLASSIC PLEASURE DRIVING horse should

excel at all of the above items.

B. Class requirements:

Horse to be shown both directions in the arena at the

Walk, Pleasure Trot, and the Working Trot. Horse will

enter counter clockwise at the Pleasure Trot. Horse will

be required to stand quietly and back readily.

C. Gait requirements:

1. WALK: A four beat, flat-footed and ground covering gait.

2. PLEASURE TROT: A two beat diagonal gait. Overall

balance as shown above. Horse must demonstrate freedom

of movement, be relaxed and easy going, demonstrating

impulsion.

3. WORKING TROT: A lengthening of stride from the

Pleasure Trot. Horse must demonstrate freedom of

movement.

D. The use of a Martingale is optional. (See CL-030-K)

E. A horse that is shown in Classic Pleasure cannot be

shown in Country Pleasure or Single Pleasure at the

same show.