Western Country Pleasure AMHR-Classic Pleasure AMHA

[LaVern]

Do the Judges look for the same thing?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

It was my understanding that they are basiclly the same class, except in AMHA its not a western class, I think in both registeries they picked horses with too much action. I don't know maybe its suppose to be that way in AMHA.

 

[targetsmom]

It was my understanding that they are basiclly the same class, except in AMHA its not a western class, I think in both registeries they picked horses with too much action. I don't know maybe its suppose to be that way in AMHA.

I feel the same way. Not only do the judges seem to pick winners with more action than is supposed to be "ideal" but also with higher head carriage. While watching the World Show last week, I thought it would be great if they ran all the Classic Pleasure Classes first and then kicked out the ones with too much action/too high a head carriage and put them in Country Pleasure. And same with Country Pleasure - run those classes next and weed out the ones that really belong in Single Pleasure. JMO.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I feel the same way. Not only do the judges seem to pick winners with more action than is supposed to be "ideal" but also with higher head carriage.

As long as these classes are based on "action," there's going to be problems. Where on earth are horses like my Kody supposed to go, ones that have nice round movement but can in no way, shape or form hold a Country Pleasure headset? Are we "too good" (ha!) for WCP even if I drop his head appropriately and drive him in a WCP manner? I hardly think that's fair either! The point was to give horses who were nice but not built to be so upheaded or fancy a place to still be competitive. In my personal opinion AMHR got off track when they started trying to legislate the outline in order to get across the point that horses who were checked up or fancy weren't supposed to win this division. Now it's like "only horses with completely flat necks, trailing hindquarters, and no flex at all to their knees should win." What?!

Ick!

A horse who's borderline Single/Country Pleasure can be driven in a more relaxed, forward manner to fit in Country or jazzed up to go in Single. A horse who has the headset for Country but medium action could be driven either long-and-low for WCP or with more lift for Country. But the ones with good action but low necksets have nowhere to go but WCP. I don't feel it's wrong to put a good mover there if their headset and training clearly fit the division. Just my opinion.

I'll post more later on the original question, I need to be able to cut and paste some pictures from the rulebook.

Leia

 

[JMS Miniatures]

So basiclly your saying that the WCP class is for your low end country horses. I have a horse that fits in this description, when it first came out he placed in every class he went into at Nationals, even National Champion. Now we are lucky enough for even a judge to look at us. There are still a few out there that still like him but he isn't a country horse, he doesn't have the knee action, yes he is flat, yes his head set is low, but this class is called western CPD, thats what they named it and thats what everyone has turned it into is a western class. This class is very detailed in the rule book and its still not being followed by some of our judges.

Now when it came to AMHA I figured its basiclly the same class but heck I didn't know I saw horses with pretty high head sets, and horses that really should be in country winning. I haven't showed in this class, I only saw it done at this years World show so I didn't feel I should really comment.

I am trying my hardest to get this horse's HOF, we can get the points but I got to get 3 more stake wins, that might be hard to do, I don't think its impossible. Once he gets it I got my next western horse already in mind. He is your low end country and once I get that head set I think he will be very hard to beat if they continue to pick these type of horses.

 

[wildoak]

Ever see a QH pleasure driving class? That's what I understood the ideal was to be, at least for AMHR - very flat kneed and sweepy stride (and collected, not trailing out behind

), level head set, face perpendicular to the ground. VERY few minis have that kind of look & movement, and judging still seems to be all over the place. I watched a couple of WCP classes come in at a crawl, horses were pokey and not moving out. Some of the others were moving at a good clip and were very attractive.

As long as these classes are based on "action," there's going to be problems

Movement has to be a part of it, but if we are penalizing horses with less "action" then we are missing the point of this class. As for any performance horse, movement needs to be clean and correct for the type - in this case, less knee and elevation but still free moving and in a frame. A western or classic horse needs to be quiet and consistent, not collected to the point they are behind the bridle, not just a slowed down version of a CP horse. Disclaimer - not looking at the rule book, just my interpretation lol.

Jan

 

[targetsmom]

I think my concept of what the WCP or Classic CP class should be is also based on big horse experience. In the breed shows they want to see a level topline and flat-kneed movement in Hunter Under Saddle (HUS) classes. To me, the drawings I have seen of Classic Pleasure look the same (when they are labeled correctly!) I had trouble under most judges in the HUS class because Target carried his head higher, which helped him win in dressage and Show Hack (suitability for dressage) but not here. Very rarely a judge would like him in HUS, but then I thought it was because of his hand gallop and/or extended trot, so who knows?

Target:

Now, I once had 4 judges tell me that they thought Princess (below) was their ideal of an AMHA Classic Pleasure horse. They wanted to see her move out more than she was in that class at a Pinto show. She had not been warmed up and was so forward I was hesitant to let her move out! But here she is in more normal form - flat kneed and moving out, with ears just above withers. I think if Target had carried his head like this we would have done much better in HUS! We have not shown in WCP or Classic Pleasure against competition, so I don't know how she would place. We hope to find out next year. Also, she can actually lengthen her stride when asked for working trot, which I don't often see in the ring, but maybe that is because I usually watch online.

 

[RhineStone]

Ever see a QH pleasure driving class? That's what I understood the ideal was to be, at least for AMHR - very flat kneed and sweepy stride (and collected, not trailing out behind

), level head set, face perpendicular to the ground. VERY few minis have that kind of look & movement, and judging still seems to be all over the place.

So where do the "Carriage Morgan" type minis show? You've got "Hot Saddlebred" (Single Pleasure) classes, "Hot Arabian" (Country Pleasure) classes, and QH (WCP) classes. It seems that the breed shows are basically eliminating a whole lot of your good minis from even having a chance because they are focused too much on a "type" ideal vs. a good driving horse.

I think my concept of what the WCP or Classic CP class should be is also based on big horse experience. In the breed shows they want to see a level topline and flat-kneed movement in Hunter Under Saddle (HUS) classes. To me, the drawings I have seen of Classic Pleasure look the same (when they are labeled correctly!) I had trouble under most judges in the HUS class because Target carried his head higher, which helped him win in dressage and Show Hack (suitability for dressage) but not here. Very rarely a judge would like him in HUS, but then I thought it was because of his hand gallop and/or extended trot, so who knows?

Target:

Unfortunately, there's too much arch to Target's neck to be placed well in HUS nowadays. We had the same problem with our Spider. They usually liked him in dressage, but said his neck was too high for HUS. (That's one reason he made an AWESOME carriage driving horse!) The problem started when people took their WP QHs and cross entered them in Hunt. Those peanut rolling QHs couldn't lumber over a jump if they had to and yet the class is HUNTER under saddle!

But since that is what was in the arena, that is what was placed, and it started a "revolution". People have been harping on this for years, so I doubt it will change. We watched a Regional Arab show HUS class this year and EVERY horse was behind the vertical! We asked the judge about it (from an educational standpoint, "Help us understand your sport...") and he said that Arab Hunter classes are basically for those horses that aren't good enough for WP or Saddleseat (your "throwaway" horses...

). He couldn't give me a good reason for the behind the vertical other than that he has to judge what is in front of him. Some big name trainer must have won a class with a horse like that, so EVERYBODY thinks that is the way it should be. He said what they usually pick in a HUS class is the best quality horse - best movement, best conformation, etc. Headset is not as important.

I can see that in mini breed shows, the judges might be picking the best movement, best conformed horses vs. ones that "meet" the criteria in each class. Then everyone seems to think that their horse should look like "so and so Big Name Trainer's" winning horse not realizing that their horse doesn't have the quality that Big Name Trainer's horse did because Big Name Owner has deep pocketbooks.

Until Big Name Trainer comes in with a fluid, super moving horse that actually tracks up, is round, and enjoys his job, I doubt anything is going to change, and I predict it will get MUCH worse as people search for that "ideal" frame vs. the whole package. Especially if the "artificial" big horse ring is the "ideal".

JMHO - Myrna

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Ever see a QH pleasure driving class? That's what I understood the ideal was to be, at least for AMHR - very flat kneed and sweepy stride (and collected, not trailing out behind

), level head set, face perpendicular to the ground. VERY few minis have that kind of look & movement, and judging still seems to be all over the place. I watched a couple of WCP classes come in at a crawl, horses were pokey and not moving out. Some of the others were moving at a good clip and were very attractive.

Movement has to be a part of it, but if we are penalizing horses with less "action" then we are missing the point of this class. As for any performance horse, movement needs to be clean and correct for the type - in this case, less knee and elevation but still free moving and in a frame. A western or classic horse needs to be quiet and consistent, not collected to the point they are behind the bridle, not just a slowed down version of a CP horse. Disclaimer - not looking at the rule book, just my interpretation lol.

Jan

Jan I totally agree with your post. Its not judged just on a head set, its not just judged on movement. Its the total package. Its not just oh my horse can't do country so lets just put him in the WCP. I honestly feel like these judges pick the horses with the best movement and not look at what they are suppose to be picking. Here is quotes from the AMHR rulebook on what they are suppose to be looking for in Western Country Pleasure Driving:

A western country pleasure driving horse should carry himself in a natural, balanced position with a relaxed head and neck. The crest of the neck shall be flat, not bowed or arched. The poll should be level with or slightly above the level of the withers.

 

Maximum credit should be give to a horse with a relaxed head and neck, with the crest of the neck flat, not bowed or arched, that carries his poll level with or slightly above the withers, moves straight with low strides and with little flexion of knees and hocks, with free movement, manners and a bright expression.

 

The horse shall be sverely penalized if his poll is more than 3 inches above the level of the withers, the crest of the neck is bowed or arched, is behind the vertical, is overflexed, excessively nosed out, the poll is below the level of the withers, exhibits excessive knee action and speed, or shows lack of control by the exhibitor.

Here is my western horse.

Here is my roadster horse that I put into western at Nationals. He has never been tought to keep his head that low so he didn't have the best drive but a judge did use him. He is the type they are picking and like I said if they continue to pick those type of horses and with training he is going to be hard to beat IMO.

 

[wildoak]

So where do the "Carriage Morgan" type minis show?

That's something I'm not really familiar with, would have assumed they would be today's version of a country pleasure type horse.

I am with you on a lot of the HUS horses out there now, they are basically bigger WP horses that still travel on a loose rein and drag their toes. Done right though, it's a pretty class to watch. I like the flat kneed sweepy movement, as long as they are moving with some impulsion and not just dogging along. Target, you are right...your horse is very nice but doesn't fit the QH/APHA type of HUS horse. Your driving horse looks very "western" or classic to me.

Jan

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Any Judge who wants a Hunter's head lower than Targets pretty horse s's head obviously has never actually hunted a horse!

You do want the head where you can see it, especially just before take off.

If you Google "Show Hunter" (I can't get You Tube to copy) and look at the video of Robert Oliver on his Show Hunter of the Year, that is an ideal headset for a Hunter.

If you want a horse to trip over it's own feet on the hunting field, well, OK, get them to hold their heads down.......

Me, I would rather actually stay up on the horse and have the horse on it's feet

As to "headsets" well, since it is only the checkrein that is causing the headset in the majority of these cases, what's the point?

 

[susanne]

As to "headsets" well, since it is only the checkrein that is causing the headset in the majority of these cases, what's the point?

^THIS!^

Why can't there be one class that is actually about driving? I understand the desire for "halter in motion" classes, but instead of emulating assorted breeds, why not have a carriage driving class? Why not make something of the partnership with ADS?

 

[RhineStone]

Why can't there be one class that is actually about driving? I understand the desire for "halter in motion" classes, but instead of emulating assorted breeds, why not have a carriage driving class? Why not make something of the partnership with ADS?

:yeah

Right you are, Susanne!

We actually might show up at a breed show then! Right now, it isn't worth it to finagle a check rein, snaffle bit, and all the other assorted "unwritten" rules just to get told we "don't know what we are doing".

Thank goodness we have the ADS arena for our horses that are round, bending, and tracking up!

Right now, there is no place to show that type of horse at a mini show. That is what I meant when I said, "Where (in what class) do the 'Carriage Morgan' minis show?"

JMS, this isn't a critical comment, but moreso an observation. Your minis seem to have more arch than those PD QHs do, so I would not consider them to be the "ideal" WCP horse (not sure I have EVER seen a mini look like the "ideal" QH, though). They don't want any arch at all in the QHs (heaven forbid if we look ANYTHING like one of those "psycho" English horses....which is also why we don't want any knee action...

), and I fear that is the way the minis want to go

. I like the little bit of arch to the minis' necks. It is natural and not forced. They are horses that can actually use themselves decently (ironically like a "performance" i.e. reining, cutting QH.) You could easily cross over to the carriage ring and do well if your horse moves out (I can't tell from a photo). (Actually, almost any mini could cross over to the carriage ring, less check rein.

) If I were you all, I would be fighting tooth and nail not to have your WCP horses end up like peanut-rolling PD QHs that can hardly move. (Also ironically, those PD QHs are the one breed type that DOESN'T as a rule do well in the carriage arena). (And BTW, I don't have a problem with peanut-rolling QH in WP classes....just not a fan of them in driving or hunter classes. Go roll peanuts in your classes that were originally designed for that.)

Myrna

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

IMHO this is EXACTLY what the rules state, but what wasn't pinning at Nationals in the open classes. Our WCP stallion travels like this and can move out when asked. He was 3rd in Ammy out of 45! My gelding travels like this- he didn't do diddly at Nationals in the open classes but did pin 7th out of 24 in Ammy. The horses that were pinning in the open classes were arched in the crest and had way too much action. You know....Country horses.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Myrna,

Thanks for your comment but IMO the first photo of my horse I like the way his neck is set. To me its pretty darn flat, maybe a little archy but honestly he does have a long neck and I rather have a collected look then just have his head and neck just out there with no looks of collection. Now the 2nd pic I agree with you that horse's neck is bowed, and even behind the verticle. But if you had read what I wrote he was never trained to put his head down that low and with more training it will correct. I was just showing what they were placing as he is a roadster horse, not a western horse but thats what they pick. IMO your going to get a tiny bit of arch to get the collected look, but you have to make sure they aren't below the withers or behind the verticle.

I have seen pics of AQHA Pleasure drivers as this is what this class was based on. How they move thats how our horses are suppose to move. There head sets are what we are suppose to be striving for but just not below the withers.

Now I'll admit it that I have been working on the first horse's head set all year, I can show you an example of a bowed behind the verticle pic that you don't want your horse to do but he did place Reserve under both judges so who knows anymore. I started working with him in May, this is him in June, IMO I think he is alot better but still not 100% where I like him to be. But he is pretty darn close.

 

[targetsmom]

IMHO this is EXACTLY what the rules state, but what wasn't pinning at Nationals in the open classes. Our WCP stallion travels like this and can move out when asked. He was 3rd in Ammy out of 45! My gelding travels like this- he didn't do diddly at Nationals in the open classes but did pin 7th out of 24 in Ammy. The horses that were pinning in the open classes were arched in the crest and had way too much action. You know....Country horses.

Thanks Field-of Dreams...And glad to hear your stallion that moves like this did so well! Congrats! Sounds like there were different judges in Ammy & Open, right? I am not going to change Princess's way of going or head set to conform to what the judges MIGHT be placing - I like her this way and it is natural for her. She goes the same way in ADS events without a check. In my mind, if my big horse Target looked more like this, he might have done better in Hunter Under Saddle. Do you see how similar their strides are?

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Thanks Field-of Dreams...And glad to hear your stallion that moves like this did so well! Congrats! Sounds like there were different judges in Ammy & Open, right? I am not going to change Princess's way of going or head set to conform to what the judges MIGHT be placing - I like her this way and it is natural for her. She goes the same way in ADS events without a check. In my mind, if my big horse Target looked more like this, he might have done better in Hunter Under Saddle. Do you see how similar their strides are?

Yes, there are two sets of judges for this show (four, actually- Ammy/Youth, Futurity, OPen Halter and Open Performance) The Ammy judges I had no problem with at all, the open....meh.

Don't change a thing on her- she's spectacular!

 

[RhineStone]

IMO the first photo of my horse I like the way his neck is set. To me its pretty darn flat, maybe a little archy but honestly he does have a long neck and I rather have a collected look then just have his head and neck just out there with no looks of collection.

I have seen pics of AQHA Pleasure drivers as this is what this class was based on. How they move thats how our horses are suppose to move. There head sets are what we are suppose to be striving for but just not below the withers.

I think you misunderstood me. I like your horse. What I don't like is the QH PD and hope that the minis are not trying to emulate that, but I fear with the way the rules are written and people's impressions, that is what will happen. Here is an example

Those walks are so slow they make me think the horses are sick! They don't look like they are enjoying their job at all. The "extended trots" are better, but the slow trots are horrible to watch. If minis go this route, any decently moving mini won't stand a chance of getting looked at.
Are the minis eventually going to have to add "Sport Horse" classes to their lineup like the Arabs had to so that the "real" (not artificially trained or set up) horses have a place to show? If they only want "show" Saddlebred, Arabs, and QH type minis, they will. If you look at the difference between a Sport Horse Arab Hunter and a Show Horse Arab Hunter, you can see what I mean.

Myrna

 

[Flying minis]

So here's my CWP under horse - she's done very well this year. This photo she's a little behind vertical - because she's wanting to break. Usually she's at vertical with a flatter neck, but I don't have any great pictures.

Had to attach the pic, because I can't figure out how to put it on the post.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Here is an example

This is a bit off topic but I just have to comment on that video.

Oh my, those might just be the bravest horses I've ever seen. How much impulsion would any (sane) horse have when the driver first puts a blindered bridle on them and then has zero contact. The poor things have to move slow and careful, with their nose nearly touching the ground because they can't see more than a tiny bit and the drivers aren't giving them any support or direction. I'm surprised they agree to trot at all never mind extend. I so want to make those drivers wear a blind fold and run around in an arena. They'd get the point as soon as they wondered where the walls were. I'd hate to be a judge for that class too, there was a point when one horse passed the sorrel and they were superimposed over each other. They could have been the same horse, exactly the same outline. How do you choose the best from clones? Then there was the whip in its holder and lets slap the reins on the horse's back to move him forward... yikes...