We are all just doomed..... Obamacare

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This is what it comes down to. Who are you going to believe, really? The government, and its absolute power, or the little guy testifying against it. They could have just as well put it under a drug raid and not being there none of us would ever know the truth of the matter. I would take his side over theirs any day of the week. I really wonder what he would say if he could defend himself on this forum. I also wonder how much truth there is to them "distributing steroids," or if that was government terminology for the sale of supplements/amino acids like L Tryptophan? Was his testimony the truth and them saying it was steroids to cover their butts for making a mistake? He also mentions he was born into naturopathic medicine. At one time what he did would be considered an apprenticeship here, and I'm also interested in what it takes in Canada to be certified, and also how long there has been a law for naturopathic certification in Canada?

I am not against Canada, I've been there a couple of times. I am against universal healthcare and this bill. Who says just because other countries are doing it that it's right for us? There is evidence against it. What we have for government insurance here already gets a big fat F, ask the elderly. I know that in the USA, the more restrictions and laws passed the less freedom/room to breathe/ability to live freely there is, and the more difficult every day life is for everyone here; medical professionals and citizens, it is just a mess.

I have been through enough in the past few months not to give a flying flip what any of you have to say against me, simply because you disagree with me.
 
This is what it comes down to. Who are you going to believe, really? The government, and its absolute power, or the little guy testifying against it. They could have just as well put it under a drug raid and not being there none of us would ever know the truth of the matter. I would take his side over theirs any day of the week. I really wonder what he would say if he could defend himself on this forum. I also wonder how much truth there is to them "distributing steroids," or if that was government terminology for the sale of supplements/amino acids like L Tryptophan? Was his testimony the truth and them saying it was steroids to cover their butts for making a mistake? He also mentions he was born into naturopathic medicine. At one time what he did would be considered an apprenticeship here, and I'm also interested in what it takes in Canada to be certified, and also how long there has been a law for naturopathic certification in Canada?

I am not against Canada, I've been there a couple of times. I am against universal healthcare and this bill. Who says just because other countries are doing it that it's right for us? There is evidence against it. What we have for government insurance here already gets a big fat F, ask the elderly. I know that in the USA, the more restrictions and laws passed the less freedom/room to breathe/ability to live freely there is, and the more difficult every day life is for everyone here; medical professionals and citizens, it is just a mess.

I have been through enough in the past few months not to give a flying flip what any of you have to say against me, simply because you disagree with me.
Apparently the US and Canada (eh?) developed it about the same time...I find the last para of substantial interest.

The term "naturopathy" is derived from Greek and Latin, and literally translates as "nature disease".[3] Modern naturopathy grew out of the Natural Cure movement of Europe.[4][5] The term was coined in 1895 by John Scheel and popularized by Benedict Lust,[6] the "father of U.S. naturopathy".[7] Beginning in the 1970s, there was a revival of interest in the United States and Canada in conjunction with the holistic health movement.[7][8]Naturopathic practitioners are split into two groups, traditional naturopaths and naturopathic physicians.[3] Naturopathic physicians employ the principles of naturopathy within the context of conventional medical practices. Naturopathy comprises many different treatment modalities of varying degrees of acceptance by the conventional medical community; these treatments range from standard evidence-based treatments, to homeopathy and other practices sometimes characterized aspseudoscience.

Naturopathy is practiced in many countries, primarily the United States and Canada,[verification needed] and is subject to different standards of regulation and levels of acceptance. The scope of practice varies widely between jurisdictions, and naturopaths in unregulated jurisdictions may use the Naturopathic Doctor designation or other titles regardless of level of education.[9]

The philosophical and methodological underpinnings of naturopathy are sometimes in conflict with the paradigm of evidence-based medicine (EBM).[10] Many naturopaths have opposed vaccination based in part on the early philosophies that shaped the profession.[11]

According to the American Cancer Society, "Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine can cure cancer or any other disease, since virtually no studies on naturopathy as a whole have been published."[12]
 
And that is what happens when you do not take one video or one source or one view/agenda as The Truth - the actual truth emerges.

Facts are such pesky, inconvenient little things.
Thank you ML and Danielle for exposing the actual facts and to Tag for a comment that's so true !!!

Hey if someone posts a video or silly cartoon....it's gotta be true right after all the media wouldn't lie to us to boost ratings
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Thanks for sharing that article, Laurie. I'm going to add it to my Facebook page where more people will see it, appreciate it, and share it along
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If we don't get rid of the widely unpopular Obamacare, as it is now, most of the costs will fall on the shoulders of middle class Americans. It will cost jobs. It will cause shortages and rationing. It will cost lives. I don't live in the land of liberal la-la, and don't have a crystal ball. But an understanding of business, the "free" market, and basic math give a person the tools to figure it out.

As was eluded to early in the thread, there's a tight core of those here on LB who passionately backed Obama in 2008. Even though Obama has spent the past three and a half years showing us all exactly why he does not deserve a second chance, they just cannot put down the torch.
 
I am sorry but since you do not work at Health Canada what you are referencing is baloney. Please do further research and get some FACTS, please.
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Shiv Chopra and a few other of the scientists that worked for Health Canada were let go for a reason that is between them and Human Relations Division and all I can tell you is it goes ALOT deeper than what you think or know but hey don't take my word for it, I just work here and know nothing. Please dig a little deeper to get the truth but perhaps you prefer to only look at one side, as many people did with the "good doctor" who isn't even a doctor. You can not educate those that refuse to look at both sides and who do not feel the need to get the entire picture before posting innacurate things and untruful things. I can't be bothered to try and educate those that do not wish to be educated, sorry if that seems harsh. I am on my break at the moment and could probably give you facts that you wouldn't want to hear, facts that I know are correct and first hand knowledge. You can believe whatever you want to believe and you can do a disservice by regurgitating these to others who wil also take the above as truth.

Okay, have a nice weekend everyone, getting off my rant
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Danielle, I do not want to post anything misleading, and I have not.
But you did not note that the guy has had a criminal past, and that he is not the "innocent victim" he has duped others into believing he is....

Tab - please explain why you think this smooth operator is beyond reproach and a shining example of... well, lies and deceit, to be honest. You support "doctors" lying about the fact that they are not doctors in any way and misrepresenting themselves to patients? And breaking the law? Smuggling? Dealing in banned substances? You support all that? Would it be peachy keen if it occurred in Pennsylvania and he told the same lies?

Watch these incredible 1 minute videos which were made by a famous Canadian actor Nick Mancuso.
I did not realize that famous actors inmmediately lend complete credibility to every pet cause they may support. The next time a bunch of actors tell me who to vote for or who not to vote for or what to do... and produce overly melodramatic videos to champion their cause - I will immediately agree with them. Okay - that was sarcasm... but Nick Mancuso is also not a "doctor". I am sure Johnny Depp has some pearls of wisdom to impart about ... something!

I have to ask why you even care about Dahl and his illegal activities and his lies. Are you a naturopath of some kind? You are in Pennsylvania. His tall tales do not affect you in any way. And he is not exactly the kind of poster child that anyone should be waving around as an example of bad healthcare in Canada. Smuggling in banned substances?? It was not vitamin E. Is it okay to break the law in PA to suit your own purposes and practice fraud? I doubt it. But apparently some Americans feel it is okay to do so in Canada? I guess I do not understand that.

The "National Health Freedom" group seems to have no issues about supporting fraud, lies and illegal smuggling for personal gain... so it is hard to take any good points they may raise seriously.

It will cause shortages and rationing. It will cost lives.
Fearmongering again - not facts. But as was noted earlier in this thread multiple times, facts (with backed up, verified and cross-checked links provided) are conveniently ignored, downplayed and sidestepped in favour of agendas.

And no, I do not support ANY politician or any political party blindly. Never have, never will.

If Romney gets elected and those elements of Romneycare he wants to get started are put through (many of which are already in Obamacare) - the hypocrisy that will be on display will be very... interesting or sad, I am not sure which.
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Snuggling is against the law.. in BOTH countries..
Really? lol, I know this is a serious conversaton, but thought I'd make light of this....made me smile.

A friend one time put on her FB status that she was going to "stain the deck today"...well her typo was she accidently put an I where the E goes on deck...lol.
 
As for drug smuggling.. it goes BOTH ways.. I have a friend in Michigan that wanted me to bring her a few bottles of Proenzi 99 plus Ephedra pills next time I visit a year or so ago.. I can buy them over the counter here in Canada but they are BANNED in the U.S. by FDA.. I kind of passed on bringing them because if I got caught going through customs with them, I would be in trouble.. You do not want to mess with custom officers on BOTH sides of the border.. They take their jobs serious..
Well said, ML. But I wonder where the outrage about FDA banning certain substances here is... where is the angst and the Brad Pitt video? Where is the phony "doctor" who wallows in fraud and lies and pretends to be a victim?

Really? lol, I know this is a serious conversaton, but thought I'd make light of this....made me smile.
You beat me to it, Sonya! Well done - and it made me smile, too...
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WELL -- if snuggling is against the law, then I guess I'm a criminal!

We should start a thread on favorite typos -- I was guilty of a real snorker back when I had my eye surgery. They were putting a gas bubble in my eye, so I wanted to know if I would "fart when I blink." To everyone's amusement, I asked if I would "fart when I boink." Hmm...
 
In most cases, Obamacare Is going to cost the middleclass family more than them purchasing their own insurance (which IS not going to be available in the future like it is currently)...so if one can't afford private insurance now what makes one think you will afford Obamacare? You won't, you will be tracked down by the IRS and pay the penalty....and still not have insurance.

Note: it will also be cheaper for employers to pay the penalty than to pay for Obamacare or any other private insurance...what do you think that will do to those that are provided insurance through their work?

It is clear that the U.S. Gov't is not capable of running healthcare, look at Medicaide/Medicare...seniors dying because they are denied simple life saving meds...VA hospitals conditions are horrible, Veterans waiting months for care...

What makes the US great is not our politicians or even their policies...it is the people...hard working, striving, creating businesses and jobs...sadly that is slowly going away, we are becoming a nation that wants the gov't to handle everything for us....and that is doom. I am not one of those people...I do not want the gov't in charge of my healthcare. Regardless of how many links you show me, I can gaurantee this is one more step in a direction that will mean doom for the US.
 
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Sonya, many of the "facts" you have related are not - as has already been noted in this thread - and are easily researched. Try to avoid biased opinion pieces that do not care about the facts and often only link to yet more "opinions" masquerading as facts. Unfortunately - they are hard to wade through.

Links have been posted in this thread that you can use to check everything out for yourself - and yet I know that some will not bother as what they read will not meet the speciifc agenda and the "facts (opinions)" they have embraced.

Where is the chart showing how a lot of what Romney said he was going to do about healthcare is ALREADY in Obamacare? You will never see a chart like that on a website called AmericaNeedsMitt.com... nope. That will be ignored - in the hope that others will ignore it as well.

Hypocrisy exists on both sides - it is not all just "lefties" as we are dismissively told in many of these threads.
 
Well Tag I did research it and if I am forced into Obamacare it will cost me over $2500/month, I can currently purchase healthcare way cheaper (and better) than that for half the cost a month through private ins....so tell me, folks who are in the same bracket (middleclass) as myself and have chosen to not purchase insurance (perhaps they are living above their means or have chosen luxuries over health ins.) are going to purchase Obamacare? They won't, they will pay the penalty tax of $4700 a year and still not have insurance. As I said I don't want gov't in charge of my healthcare period...Romneycare or Obamacare....go visit a VA hospital or talk to some people on Medicare and you will see why! There was a time in my life where I did not have insurance (new job slightly over minimum wage with a waiting period) and racked up some serious bills due to a collapsed lung and 3 weeks in the hospital...I was never denied care, I was provided top notch care....it took me 15 years to pay it off but I did, just like my student loans...it was a bill I aquired and I paid it like I was suppose to, no different than any other bill. The reason healthcare is so costly is because some folks chose things like fancy cars, houses, even horses over paying their medical bills or buying insurance.

If I knew the answer to the healthcare issues I would certainly provide it, but I know for a fact putting our gov't in charge of it is not the answer.
 
Sonya, I guess since I work for Uncle Sam and see how mismanaged taxpayer dollars are on a daily basis it even irks me all the more. You are hitting the nail right smack dab on the head. I personally know two different people that transferred to work at my installation to get away from the VA hospital in Little Rock. They do not even know each other but both have said that hospital "is ran by Satan himself." On the other hand I do feel that the VA hospital in Shreveport is one of the better ones.

Jill, thanks for posting the comparisons. Not exactly two peas in a pod.

Tab, it is good to hear from you. I still pray for you every day.
 
If I knew the answer to the healthcare issues I would certainly provide it, but I know for a fact putting our gov't in charge of it is not the answer.
Well, the way it is going now is also not the answer. I may not like everything about Obamacare - but it is a start. If Romney is elected, he will also make a start - as he should, IMO. One thing I do know - is that if Romney is elected and he gets his interpretation of Romneycare going - the rampant hypocrisy we will see from some pundits and talking heads will make all of our heads spin...
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- suddenly healthcare will be the best thing ever!

Sonya - it may be that if healthcare did go through and get finalized , the monthly fees may not wind up being what research through certain sources would tell you.

The reason healthcare is so costly is because some folks chose things like fancy cars, houses, even horses over paying their medical bills or buying insurance.
If only it was that simplistic - but unfortunately that is not what determines the cost of healthcare... it is far more complicated than that.

Here is an interesting quiz - which is which... Obamacare or Romneycare? A live link in here screwed everything up and brought up all the coding - so I had to pull the live links for now...

1. Individuals who are deemed able to afford health insurance but fail to comply are subject to penalties for each month of non-compliance in the tax year. The penalties, which will be imposed through the individual's personal income tax return, shall not exceed 50% of the minimum monthly insurance premium.

2. Employers who employ 11 or more full-time equivalent employees and do not make a fair and reasonable contribution to their employees health insurance are required to pay a fine.

3. Tax credits to make it easier for the middle class to afford insurance will become available for people with income between 100 percent and 400 percent of the poverty line who are not eligible for other affordable coverage.

4. Children and adolescents up to age 18 whose financial eligibility as determined by the division exceeds 133 per cent but is not more than 300 per cent of the federal poverty level will be eligible for Medicaid.

5. Americans who earn less than 133 percent of the poverty level (approximately $14,000 for an individual and $29,000 for a family of four) will be eligible to enroll in Medicaid.

6. A recent poll asked people whether they had a generally favorable or unfavorable view of the health plan. Responses split 41 percent and 41 percent between favoring and not favoring. Another 18 percent said they were undecided.

7. Small businesses qualify for tax credits if they pay for at least half of the workers health insurance. A small business is defined as having fewer than 25 full-time workers paid average annual wages below $50,000.

8. Experience shows the plan is not significantly going to lower costs. Supporters of the law are actively considering new legislation aimed at cost containment.

9. The plan creates a Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute to conduct research to provide information about the best available evidence to help patients and their health care providers make more informed decisions.

10. For individuals who make more than $200,000 or couples that make more than $250,000, the plan increases Medicare taxes on wages in 2013 by 0.9 percent and imposes a 3.8 percent tax on investment income.

****************

1. RomneyCare

Source: Massachusetts Department of Revenue, TIR 09-25: Individual Mandate Penalties for Tax Year 2010

Note: Both plans have individual mandates. The federal penalties start small, but eventually ramp up to $695 per year or 2.5 percent of income, whichever is higher. Eventually, federal penalties will tend to be higher than the Massachusetts plan.

2. RomneyCare

Source: Massachusetts Department of Revenue, Health Care Information for Employers

Note: Federal law exempts employers with fewer than 50 workers. Additionally, under the federal plan, employers pay fines only if their workers qualify for tax credits to buy insurance.

3. ObamaCare

Source: HealthCare.gov, Provisions of the Affordable Care Act, By Year

Note: The Massachusetts law also provides subsidized health insurance, but the income cut-off is 300 percent of the federal poverty level.

4. RomneyCare

Source: Massachusetts health care law

Note: The Massachusetts law expanded Medicaid for children. The federal law expands Medicaid to adults, but sets the cut-off at 133 percent of the federal poverty level.

5. ObamaCare

Source: HealthCare.gov, Provisions of the Affordable Care Act, By Year

Note: The Massachusetts law expanded Medicaid for children. The federal law expands Medicaid to adults, but sets the cut-off at 133 percent of the federal poverty level.

6. ObamaCare

Source: The Kaiser Family Foundation, Kaiser Health Tracking Poll, April 2011

Note: Polls show the federal law has split public opinion.

7. ObamaCare

Source: Internal Revenue Service, Small Business Health Care Tax Credit for Small Employers

Note: Tax credits start at 35 percent of the employer's health premium costs and increase to 50 percent in 2014.

8. RomneyCare

Source: Gov. Deval Patrick, Patrick-Murphy administration proposes comprehensive health care cost containment legislation, Feb. 17, 2011, AP, Lawmakers hear bill to rein in Mass. health costs, May 16, 2011

9. ObamaCare

Source: U.S. Government Accountability Office, Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute (PCORI) Governing Board, Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute (PCORI)

10. ObamaCare

Source: Kaiser Family Foundation, "summary of new health reform law"
 
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