the disgusting seller

[tagalong]

Stringhalt and locked stifles/upward fixation of the patella are two entirely different things.... so maybe there was simply some confusion.

I tried to explain it here - but gave up and will simply supply a quote from TheHorse.com...

Stringhalt is an abnormal gait that involves exaggerated flexion of one or both hock joints, resulting in a rapid elevation of the hind limb. The abnormality might be subtle--such as minor upward jerking of the hind leg, or so severe that the canon bone and fetlock are pulled violently against the horse's belly. Some severely affected horses have difficulty moving forward because of the over-flexion at every step. Signs could be exaggerated in nervous or agitated horses, or when they are backed. There is no breed or age predilection. Other syndromes that can cause somewhat similar gait abnormalities include shivers, fibrotic myopathy, intermittent upward fixation of the patella, and peripheral neuropathy (nerve degeneration) due to equine protozoal myelitis (EPM).
Most cases of stringhalt are associated with nerve degeneration. The specific cause this degeneration is unclear, but it might be caused by ingestion of certain plants such as vetch and sweet peas, which contain compounds that damage peripheral nerves. Australian stringhalt commonly involves groups of horses and is thought to be caused by ingestion of flatweed (Hypochoeris radica). Trauma to the dorsal hock or dorsal metatarsal regions can also cause the abnormality by damaging nerves or causing adhesions to tendons.

Some cases of stringhalt may resolve without treatment, often requiring months. Affected horses should be removed from pasture and the pasture should be inspected for toxic plants known to cause stringhalt. Sedative medications may reduce anxiety and improve the condition. A surgical procedure, which involves removing a section of one of the tendons crossing the outer portion of the hock, will bring about improvement in some cases. The prognosis for recovery from stringhalt is guarded to fair; some horses never recover from the condition regardless of treatment.

That ^^^ is stringhalt... the hind leg jerking upward towards the belly.

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With locked stifles/upward fixation of the patella, the leg gets locked in extension... not flexion. If the stifle pops back in on its own, it may occasionally over-flex the other way briefly in a similar fashion to stringhalt ( as indicated in the quote above)... but that is not what is going on...

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

You nasty seller! (Kidding!) I don't really followed the innuendo type threads, things should be resolved between the buyer and seller - I won't judge someone here! Kudo's to you for stepping forward though and being an ethical and responsible breeder.

My take - there is a major difference between a horse with true stifle problems and the growth pattern stifle problems in yearlings. I've seen both with a former associates breeding program.

On of her foals locked really badly and dragged a leg. Vets' checked her, recommended confined movement - i.e. smaller pasture not free run of our acreage, but not stalled. She was fine within a couple of days and never had a problem again. She's now five years old.

Another group of horses we had here (same breeder) involved three colts from one stallion all had stifle problems - two were gelded and sold as pets. The third sold as a breeding stallion and he's had surgery. One of them locked so badly when standing that he had a hard time to unlock to walk. He could trot, canter, gallop, back without a problem, but a slow walk or the transition from standing to walking was iffy at times.

I have also seen horses that were stalled and not given adequate exercise have stifle problems that corrected when given a chance to exercise and strengthen the supporting ligiments and muscles.

My personal opinion - stifle problems are like dwarfism. It's there, but the genetic testing as to the inheritability of this isn't. I wouldn't knowningly breed a horse with stifle problems, and definitely wouldn't buy a foal from a known carrier.

BUT, I would also make sure it isn't dietary (selenium levels can affect this) or age or any other cause before making that decision.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

This is why I just HATE the airing of our dirty linen in public.

I did reply on the original thread, I think, but in a situation like this you can only give advice based on the information given.

If the information given had been truthful then I believe most of the advice given was correct, mine included.

SO.......IF the info was correct why has the original poster not taken some of the very mild and totally legal advice given??

If ....IF.... two our of only twenty foals TRULY had luxating patellas that were diagnosed, did not get better and did not in any way come from the mares involved (we are all very quick to blame the stallions!!) THEN, I am afraid that Yes, I would stop breeding him and I would, very reluctantly, geld him, however good he was.

I am absolutely sure that Bitsy has this all under advisement and will take whatever steps are necessary to resolve whatever situation occurs.

 

[kaykay]

The only thing i beg to differ on is wether its inheritable. it most definately is (referring to michelles post) When we bought a mare with this (years ago) I talked to numerous vets and the Univer of Illinois. They all agree that without a doubt it is a genetic fault that is inherited. The university even went as far to say because mini breeders do not cull ruthlessly like big horse breeds it is becoming RAMPANT. They did do a study on it and found it best to do surgery after age 3 because minis tend to get arthritis from the surgery if done earlier. ONe vet told me it used to be a big problem in shetlands but now you rarely see it as they culled most of them out of the breeding pool. I have seen alot of breeders say that feeding too much protein can cause it but the vets i talked to said that is false. its usually caused because the hind leg is too straight. Because its so straight the tendon doesnt catch properly and leg locks in one position. Just like cowhocks or sickle hocks are inherited and a conformation fault so is locked stifles.

as i said in the other post though i have seen young foals do it during a growth spurt and then never do it again. But if a horse does it after age 2 it is imo permanent and a genetic fault.

 

[mountain_waif]

This illustration shows how subtle this CONFORMATION FAULT is:

It is amazing to me how many do not understand that it is not ok. It seems to be just sell the horse, let the unsuspecting buyer take the loss, and go on breeding.

I'm with Kay on this. This needs to be bred out of our horses not bred further into the lines. :no: It amazes me that once the horse is identified so many say oh it's ok if .....

The third sold as a breeding stallion and he's had surgery

And most of his offspring may need surgery to live normal lives and will be bought by unsuspecting buyers.
I hope those looking for good breeding stock look closer at what they are breeding.

 

[Mini Brook Farm]

Melanie is both a wonderful person and a respectable breeder. T Bone is an absolutely gorgeous stallion. As Tony stated earlier, it's not all that unusual for a young horse to go through a growth sput that may include a stifle problem. With a little bit of time this entire issue may very well ( & hopefully will ) resolve itself.

 

[SWA]

Thanks so much Lois and Kay, I'm learning so much from this thread!

:

I've gone back to T-Bone's page, (being that he's the subject at hand for the moment), and I know photos never tell the "whole story" of conformation and all, but In looking at his photos on his site, of his halter class participations....his hind leg "looks" to be of good set????

:

Here is the link to what I'm looking at... http://www.hiddentimber.net/Tbone.html

Again, I've never seen him in person, though that would be a day to dream for, eh???

:

(for me anyhow.

: )

However this does turn out, I do hope all the best for this little guy, as he's truly captivating in all other areas to breed for, and for something as important as stifle problems to be a cause for concern to geld (and I have confidence in his owner that he will be if need be), it would be such a sad loss to the breed over all.

 

[kaykay]

that is a great illustration. another thing to keep in mind is that not all locked stifles actually lock. Some can be very subtle. The mare we had would kinda drag one hind hoof. Fearing wesnt nile i had the vet come. He diagnosed locked stifle and this was seconded by another vet. I had never seen it where the leg didnt lock completely so it can be misleading to see. She did have overly straight hind legs. This event was what made me brush up on my conformation skills so that I could pick better breeding stock. Lucky for me the person who sold her to me was ethical and responsible and took the mare back and refunded my money.

 

[kaykay]

hi tanya!

theres no way to tell from those pics as his back legs are stretched out behind him instead of standing square. But even if there were pics of him standing square no way am i going to say if his legs are too straight or perfect as I just dont want to be the judge of that and would rather see a horse in person.

I just want to be sure that people know this is a big problem in our breed but not at all saying if this stallion does or does not have the problem.

 

[SWA]

hi tanya!

theres no way to tell from those pics as his back legs are stretched out behind him instead of standing square. But even if there were pics of him standing square no way am i going to say if his legs are too straight or perfect as I just dont want to be the judge of that and would rather see a horse in person.

I just want to be sure that people know this is a big problem in our breed but not at all saying if this stallion does or does not have the problem.

Okeedoke!

:

I agree, photos do not tell a complete story of conformation, LOL.

And too, would LOVE to see this guy in person some day.

:

All in all though, I do hope all the best for him...no matter however things turn out for him.

:

 

[Dorrie & Frank]

Hi! First of all I have to tell you that I am in love with T-bone - My daughter is the horse person in the family and I don't usually "go crazy" over a horse - I fell in love with Yoga Light Vant Huttenest and Egyptian King Dancer - and now T-Bone. I told my husband that he should buy T-Bone for me for our 10th anniversary (I know he's not for sale). His eyes got big like something was really out of character for me!

We have had a little mare that has had a some foals that had stifle lock issues during periods of growth and every one of them grew out of it and are show-ring and pasture-play fine. When selling it is a matter of communication and education. The buyer is disgruntled and probably needed more information - some people just can't be pleased even when told up front what issue they may confront. I would not geld a stallion for that reason. I would buy a T-Bone foal if we were in an expansion mode regardless of the stifle issue. I would be certain give the mare in foal to him Clovite to help in developing tendons, bones and maturing skeletal growth in utero.

We have had a filly have tendon surgery - it was not out of the mare with foals with stifle locks - she was very premature and her tendons did not tighten. She had to have a tendon transplant in a front leg because her knee would slide out of joint. She has done beautifully and has no adverse effects from the surgery. The surgery was around $500.00. In terms of miniature horse expenses no big woop. So even if someone wants to jump the gun and have stifle surgery done it is not huge for the person or the horse.

I'm "that lawyer" and in trial terms telling everything even negative factors right up front is irreverently called "showing the baby" - we've tried many cases involving claims of birth injury against doctors defending the doctors - if the child is severely effected we insist on showing the jury up front as soon as possible - then the shock factor is gone later in the case and if it was not caused by the doctor then the jury can focus on the facts and not on how tragic the situation is. Another good example is the Enron trial - Ken Lay's attorney did not bring out on direct examination his huge stock sales or the fact that they had paid their economy "expert" a million dollar fee. The other side got to bring it out and it inflammed the court room atmosphere and I am sure the jury - if he is convicted it is because they did not bring the "bad stuff" out up front.

We have a mare for sale that as a show filly had a trainer try to do his own farrier work and he damaged her hoof wall on her back foot. It makes her leg look crooked but it is not a genetic issue - it is an issue for close regular farrier work. You'll find that information right on her web page. We let the prospective buyers know right up front everything we can about the horse so they know exactly what they are getting.

We prefer to have people come to see the horse in person or to pay a local trainer to give an independent look before buying. Buyers havwe to take responsibility for also making sure that horse is the right one for them and not just buy from a picture and then complain publicly later that they were mislead. Its all about communication.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Melanie and I have talked privately about this before she posted. She asked me if I thought she should post to defend herself and I told her to just come here and tell what she told me. She is a conciencious and caring person wanting to do what is best not only for her beloved T bone who , by the way should have his own calendar he is so pretty to look at, but also for the breed. It took alot for her to come here and say it was her horse.... it takes even more for her to make the decisions to geld or not to geld based on what she knows about this adorable horse. Her honesty and integrity in this situation makes her the sort of person I would feel comfortable dealing with. That said, I would reserve purchasing a foal of his until further study of them has been done. I would like to see how these foals that were popping fare after age 3. I know that Melanie is going to do what is best for everyone.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

that is a great illustration. another thing to keep in mind is that not all locked stifles actually lock. Some can be very subtle. The mare we had would kinda drag one hind hoof. Fearing wesnt nile i had the vet come. He diagnosed locked stifle and this was seconded by another vet. I had never seen it where the leg didnt lock completely so it can be misleading to see. She did have overly straight hind legs. This event was what made me brush up on my conformation skills so that I could pick better breeding stock. Lucky for me the person who sold her to me was ethical and responsible and took the mare back and refunded my money.

I have to agree with Kay here I realize that now that you "know" the seller those that are her friends are coming to her defense however.. IMO not related to this person or the OP who I dont even remember who that was at this second..

I think we in this breed tend to brush things away that many in the big horse breed dont, it is or shall I say CAN HAPPEN that a yearling in a growth spurt can lock however.. it surely isnt commonplace not as common as one in the mini world might think. It shouldnt happen with a majorityof horses and be made ok IMO and the opinoin of the vets I have spoken with. It is a rare or should be rare issue when it happens to a growing horse.a horse iwth a locking stifle doesnt lock every step or every day there are periods of locking and sometimes can go months even longer without you seeing them lock again that doesnt mean it isnt an issue again not related to this situation as I havent seen any of the horses involved I am talking in a general statement.

Kay I fully agree with your post and think everyone needs to educate themselves on these issues and what is truly considered normal.

 

[SweetOpal]

Well this is my opinion! There is NO stallion that is so beautiful, amazing or wonderful that should be allowed to go on producing this type of genetic flaw! There are so many wonderful amazing stallions that we don't need to use ones that produces something that keeps producing. Im guessing that most who have posted have not had a horse with locking stifle, you would sure as heck not be thinking it is ok!

Also to all of you who think she was such an honest and wonderful seller, what did you offer the buyer when she called and complained to you about this said horse. As I read the post Denise siad that you offered her NOTHING and said you have your own filly in the back yard that posses the same trait and it is coming for T-Bone. Did you offer her something in exchange, take the filly, give her a refund, offer to pay for the surgery? Was this mare sold as a pet or was it sold as a broodmare?

Im glad to hear that since this you are not planning on breeding him again. I hope you will stick with this idea. It is my experience that they do not lock all the time, and sometimes youw will only notice if you are constantly watching unless they have a very bad flare up.

I can completely understand Denise's reasons for posting, she is furious and fed up and tired of everyone acting as if he is such a wonderful stallion when she in her own heart and mind belives differently. When we choose to breed and sell to outside people we better be darn sure as to that fact if someone gives us thier hard earned money they better be getting what they paid for and expected.

So bottom line is, if you have a horse that has genetic flaws and has passed this on to foals then I warn you now, do not sell me a horse.