the disgusting seller

[bitsy]

First, I am the seller in “disgusted with sellerâ€, I’m sure you saw the post, it was aimed at me and my beloved T-Bone. Please take a moment to read this.

Last Nov. (six months ago, we have not bred any mares since this) both my weanling filly and the other persons yearling filly both began to lock a stifle. My filly did it for appr. two weeks and I have seen no sign of it since. The filly the woman on the forum had, a yearling, also did this at appr. the same time. (she no longer has this horse) Both horses have shown no more signs of the problem, I know and am in contact with the current owner of the filly. My goal, like most breeders is to breed the best to the best that I can. I love T-Bone and I dearly love his foals. However, that said, I would NEVER continue to breed him if this is a problem. At this point I just don’t know that it is. Out of about 20 foals only 2 have shown this problem. Do I geld a stunning stallion over this? None of his foals over two have had any problems, so I don’t know if it is just a growing thing or if these fillies will have more problems in the future. I live and die by my reputation, over half of my sales are repeat customers who are in love with their horses. I would never intentionally deceive anyone.

I will geld him and continue to use him as my performance horse if this is truly a problem. I hate to stop his breeding carreer over some of his babies having growing pains if that is all it is. T-Bone's foals are pretty headed, sweet dispositioned and correct. They are winning at halter and in performance. Thank you for reading this.

 

[Tony]

Lots of babies through yearlings go through stringhalt during times of fast growth. That certainly would not cause me to geld their sire. In many years of breeding, only a minute number have not outgrown it. I am sorry that you have had such a reaction, which, in my opinion, if uncalled for.

Good luck.

 

[mountain_waif]

It did not even enter my mind that it was T-Bone that was referred to. I love your horse. He is gorgeous.

However, now knowing this, and as a person who has had one horse with stifle problems that appeared to be hereditary, I wouldn't buy one of his foals.

It is so painful to watch your horse stumble and have their legs catch. My filly had surgery when she was three, but suffered both emotionally (she was so bad that you could see her thinking about moving before she would move) and physically. She could run like the wind, but could not walk without her leg catching. I think in the wild, she would not have survived for long.

So I guess your delemma is to determine in your mind if it is hereditary. Could it have been just the crosses made? Were the mares related or did they have problems when they were young? Could the fillys have both been injured in some way? Is two out of twenty or 10% acceptable if you feel it is hereditary?

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I have a friend who went thru this however her stallion himself locked and terribly although it started to become consistant as he got older . She bought him to be a herd sire, he has great bloodlines, National show record ect however she did after much discussion with her vet and other vets decide it is herditary and is an issue for her and she gelded him.

Mountain Waif is right it is of course only up to you as to what percentage is ok with you and of course now conciously going out and finding as many older offspring as you can (assuming he has some) to monitor.

The answer of how many is to many is different for everyone with any herditary issue or issues thought to be.

I dont feel that the buyer was wrong to have concern for a issue such as this and I understand your side as well.

Guess the only thing you can do is what you have done tell well not us as the general public (we dont all matter at all in a situation like this) but potential buyers about the problem the other 2 fillies had, how you and your vet feel about it and let them make there own decisions. As long as you fully disclose what you know and your own beliefs about it.. well cant ask for much more then that. The key to any succsesful sale is to be as honest and upfront as you can always better a buyer hears the info from you straight from the source then to hear it from someone who was unhappy.

Tony off subject lol but I dont see how stringhalt and locking stifles are the same thing at all in fact they are 2 different things as I have always heard and understood .

 

[KanoasDestiny]

I have mixed feelings on this issue. Anyone who knows me and my obsession with horses, knows that perfection is the least of my worries. A horse is a horse, and that's that. I do not need the "best horse" to love or have as a pet. Everybody puts perfection in such high regards, and I truly feel that if some animals should not be bred due to an imperfection, humans should also use the same discrection when having children. If a person has diabetes, obesity, cancer, high blood pressure or any other condition that is considered hereditary, why should they have a child and pass it on? I'm just using that as an example becasue we all know that most people are willing to take that chance, so that they can have a baby that they can love and be proud of. I believe the same goes for a lot of breeders. It may not be intential, but what isn't good enough for some, is more than enough for someone else.

However, if a seller does know that there IS a problem or a "potential" problem, I think it would only be right to at least suggest it to the buyer. I mean lets face it, not everyone is as easily pleased as I am.

: People who solely set out to breed the best and only the best, should at least have the right to choose if a horse is ideal for their purpose. A seller should disclose everything they know about the foal or the parents, just so that it is a good moral business transaction. (However, if a buyer does not know, then they can't possibly tell, can they?) I also think it is important that if a buyer is concerned about possible problems in the future, they should ask and not assume that the seller will be honest from the get-go. Perhaps, a buyer should get in writing a description of what is present or could show up problem wise in the future. If it does happen to be something hereditary that the seller didn't suggest, there should be a clause that assures a refund or partial refund.

JMHO.

Lisa hit the nail on the head of what I was trying to say.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Guess the only thing you can do is what you have done tell well not us as the general public (we dont all matter at all in a situation like this) but potential buyers about the problem the other 2 fillies had, how you and your vet feel about it and let them make there own decisions. As long as you fully disclose what you know and your own beliefs about it.. well cant ask for much more then that. The key to any succsesful sale is to be as honest and upfront as you can always better a buyer hears the info from you straight from the source then to hear it from someone who was unhappy.

Full disclosure is a good thing - and definately keep an eye on the 2 fillies with the problem (are their mothers related at all?) - Since it doesn't cost as much to keep a mini as it does a full size horse, if you want to keep breeding T-bone (and he is adorable!) Than I think the way I would do it would be to hold back his foals and raise them yourself at least until they stop growing.

That'd give you an uninhibited ability to see exactly how his babies grow and how many (if any more) have this problem. If it's a growing phase (and we had a filly that did that, our vet said she was sure that she'd grow out of it, and she did) - then you'll be able to tell buyers that... and that it's over for that horse... a vet exam will help.

So, if you want to breed foals to sell as babies, I'd use another stallion for a season or two, while only breeding T-bone for babies you can keep and watch for awhile.... and that way if they do develop the problem you are the one dealing with it and monitoring it rather than risking it happening where the horse is no longer in your custody and control.

It might take longer, but the end result will be something you can be more certain of and be happy to stand behind as the breeder.

 

[Debby - LB]

I commend you for posting this, gosh knows you didn't have too nobody knew who and wouldn't have remembered tomorrow.

I can tell you from reading your posts and particularly this post I would NOT hesitate to buy from you at all IF he does not have stifle problems himself. (the original post says that the stallion has stifle problems that he is passing on) How you have described this situation is something I consider normal. There are times that this happens and goes away, particularly due to growing too fast. It is not always a problem that lingers.

Lisa I'm sure Tony knows that Stringhalt and badly conformed stifles that tend to lock are two different things? but you know.. stringhalt is a possibility and is not to be overlooked, could be why it came on and left and never came back??

Edited for my darn spelling excuse if I missed something

:

 

[HGFarm]

What do you do when you know a seller is breeding a stallion that has stifle problems and he passes that fault to his foals? The seller even admitted it to me after I wrote her about a filly I bought from her was having severe problems with her stifles. She is even on this board posting photos of her new foals by him. How do you protect other people from buying from her? She continues to breed him and sell his foals, is she telling the buyers that he has stifle problems, probably not-she didnt bother to tell me! Am I ticked off-you bet I am! When are sellers going to care about what they produce instead of how much money they can make! Denise

The email above states that the stallion also has the same problem and 2 of 20 foals is 10 percent of his foal crop so far. I do not see that your post has any mention if he has the problem or not, or did have the problem.

I dont see that you previously mentioned it to the buyers, but it may have happened after the sale? It looks to me like you are in contact with the other owner and showing responsibility here. If the other person who posted has already sold the horse, why is this just now coming up?

I think I am missing something here....

 

[stormo41]

I commend you for posting this, gosh knows you didn't have too nobody knew who and wouldn't have remembered tomorrow.I can tell you from reading your posts and particularly this post I would NOT hesitate to buy from you at all IF he does not have stifle problems himself. (the original post says that the stallion has stifle problems that he is passing on) How you have described this situation is something I consider normal. There are times that this happens and goes away, particularly due to growing too fast. It is not always a problem that lingers.

Lisa I'm sure Tony knows that Stringhalt and badly conformed stifles that tend to lock are two different things? but you know.. stringhalt is a possibility and is not to be overlooked, could be why it came on and left and never came back??

same goes for me

 

[Joyce]

This is a hard question to answer because so many things come into play here. I think if TBone was my stallion, I would continue to breed him and monitor all future foals carefully. The two that happened to have a problem could have been something betwee the stallion and those two mares, or it could have been a mare problem.

I would continue to breed him and watch the mares as well as the foals he sires for awhile before I would geld him. If he's the stallion I remember, he is nice. And it may never happen again.

You are very honest and up front to bring this up on the Forum. But, yes, I would not be afraid to buy one of his foals from you as this point where you really don't know where the problem of the two came from.

JMO, JOyce

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Debby I agree I was just confused as I have never heard the two things Stringhalt and locking stifles used interchangably before and am guessing that Tony must have thought something and typed the last half (at least I do that lots of times not only typeing but talking)

 

[billiethekid40]

I kept my mouth shut when I saw the OP, but I could have told you that this would happen. Its really NOT FAIR for posters on the forum to post about another member "anonymously" and expect feelings not to get hurt. That means that the person the original post is about has NO CHOICE but to come forward and defend themselves, so the "anonimity" of the original post is just a sham. Things like this should be kept private unless you feel strongly enough about the subject to stand up and give the whole facts as you know them. Posting about an anonymous poster, but stating for all to see that it is a fellow forum member only leads to finger pointing, speculation, and hurt feelings. Just imagine how many breeders could have been afected by the speculation of this post had Bitsy not come forward! Anyone buying from ANY forum member would have to second guess themselves. Explain how this whole situation solved anything?

Bitsy, I think your stallion is stunning, and if he himself doesn't have problems, then who is to say it isn't the mare, the particular mare/stallion cross, or a growing issue, or a farrier issue causing the problems? 2 out of 20 wouldn't cause me to cut a stallion out of my breeding program.

 

[SWA]

This is a hard question to answer because so many things come into play here. I think if TBone was my stallion, I would continue to breed him and monitor all future foals carefully. The two that happened to have a problem could have been something betwee the stallion and those two mares, or it could have been a mare problem.

I would continue to breed him and watch the mares as well as the foals he sires for awhile before I would geld him. If he's the stallion I remember, he is nice. And it may never happen again.

You are very honest and up front to bring this up on the Forum. But, yes, I would not be afraid to buy one of his foals from you as this point where you really don't know where the problem of the two came from.

JMO, JOyce

I ditto the above. Melanie, I'm so sorry to learn that T-Bone was the referred to stallion of that post. I commend you as well though, in your admirable integrity with promise to monitor future foals and geld if found to be the culprit of the problem. I think he's absolutely stunning, and will hold in prayers that all is found to be well for him. I think he would be a great loss to the breed if he is passing this, as literally EVERYTHING ELSE about him are awesome and outstanding goals to breed for! Will be rooting for him, and prayerfuly hoping in all the best for him, and for you!

:

I want you to know too, you have my utmost respect too, in after reading of your upfront honesty over this whole matter! We truly need MORE folks with your honesty and ethics among us! God bless, and be with always!

:

Don't know if opportunity will ever allow for me, but if ever...I would consider it an honor to ever have the opportunity to do business with you!

:

Warmest,

Tanya

 

[sdmini]

Bitsy, although I am sorry you had to defend yourself here I know many experienced breeders and show enthusiast that would not hesitate to buy a foal from a stallion that has produced two, briefly, locking foals. I know I would not hesitate.

Marlee

 

[bitsy]

Some of you asked if T-Bone has a stifle problem. NO. I have never in the five years I have owned him seen him lock up a stifle. Thank you one and all who have posted here and emailed me about this, your support has been wonderful. I have just been sick over all of this.

I felt I had to come out and tell my side. I couldn't leave everyone wondering which breeder on the forum she was referring to.

 

[Denise]

Then why on January 9th when I emailed you about Opal did you say it was coming from T bone since you had one in your backyard doing the exact same thing? I guess I am a litte confused here. Your the one that told me it was him throwing it.

 

[virginia]

I for one, would be very upset if Melanie gelded T-Bone. It would be a great loss to the mini Horse World. I have met this stallion twice and he gets better looking everytime. Recently I purchased the beautiful mare in my Avatar and she is bred to T-Bone. (Can't wait to see this baby) I have no worries about stifle problems as it sounds to me that the it is a yearling growth problem. The fillies show no current locking and seem to have outgrown it. I consider Melanie to be an honest person and a very ethical breeder. Her horses are beautiful and if she ever decides to sell T-Bone, I am first in line.

Ginny StP

 

[virginia]

StP

 

[virginia]

oops

 

[virginia]

sorry, geez a quad post, must be a record!