Starting young horses

[ShaunaL]

Hi you guys - what a great forum this is!

So, I am very much a newbie to driving minis (although I did train my Arabian mare to drive when I was a kid. I don't think I did a very thorough job LOL but we managed). I am planning on starting foundation training with my two 2 year olds in the spring/summer. I would like to put a very strong solid foundation on them before they are hooked to a cart, as I am learning as I go, my children will be driving them eventually and I plan on showing them in driving as well. One is a 33.25" colt and the other a 34" filly. They are very different in minds/temperament so it will be fun to work with them both

Once I get them started I'm going to start training my 11 year old Buck On Broadway daughter

I am looking at a used bitting rig right now. Is there an advantage to starting in a bitting rig vs a harness? I don't have a harness yet. The advantage I thought there might be to the bitting rig is it looks like there are fewer straps and all that so it might be easier in the beginning when we are both learning. Also if it gets damaged or something it wouldn't be as big a deal. Any harness I get would probably have to be used in the showring as well as for training.

Does anyone have a outline for how they start a young horse for the first few weeks? Do you wait until they are full 3 year olds (birthday not Jan 1st) to actually have them start pulling a cart? What harness (lower cost if possible) do you recommend for a reasonable training/local show harness?

Thank you!

Shauna

 

[RhineStone]

If this is the first horse you are training in a while, I recommend that you get the DVD set, "Teach Your Horse to Drive" by Mary Ruth Marks. It will answer a lot of those questions, prepare you better, and you will feel more confident in your teaching.

I don't have a bitting rig. I only have one harness per size of horse. (Someday, I want a presentation harness, but that will have to wait.) Unless your horse is unusually unruly, why spend the extra $? Again, the prep work on your horse before you get to the harnessing step will save a lot of damage to your equipment. I don't believe in a lot of extra equipment (with the exception of my bit collection

). My husband has another saying, "There's no place like home," meaning that it is not the stuff (ruby slippers) that got Dorothy to Kansas, but herself. You are the best piece of equipment for your horse. To train a driving horse, my opinion is that you need a good halter, cotton lead, 2 longe lines, a whip with a lash, a quality, well-fitted harness in good condition, and a well-made, well-fitted cart in good condition, not to mention desentization toys. That seems like a lot of stuff, but it's all stuff you use to drive. You won't ever drive in a bitting rig.

It depends on what type of showing you intend to do as to what type/brand harness to recommend.

 

[disneyhorse]

The harness and the bitting rig both have distinct differences. Harnesses are used only for driving/ground driving while bitting rigs are generally used only for getting the horse used to wearing tack as well as getting a headset (if that is what you are going for) so the horse can build the right muscles. The bitting rig should be used carefully if you are going to bit your horse up progressively tighter.

If you are not really going for that breed-show-ring driving sort of thing, then forgo the bitting rig and just invest in a sturdy harness. You can achieve a good head set with time and proper training, regardless of having a bitting rig or not.

Andrea

 

[ShaunaL]

Thank you RhineStone and Andrea. Well, eventually I do want to compete in driving just to have horses with well-rounded show records but I think VSE/CDE is more my thing. So I will just concentrate on basic training with a harness - it sounds like the bitting rig is used for training that I don't have the knowledge for and I don't want to cause them any issues.

Thank you!

 

[MiLo Minis]

Thank you RhineStone and Andrea. Well, eventually I do want to compete in driving just to have horses with well-rounded show records but I think VSE/CDE is more my thing. So I will just concentrate on basic training with a harness - it sounds like the bitting rig is used for training that I don't have the knowledge for and I don't want to cause them any issues. Thank you!

To be perfectly honest if I were you I would put the money out for a professional trainer - it could easily save you money in the long run. You yourself said you fumbled through training with your horse as a youngster and if you don't have enough knowledge to use a bitting rig I would say you don't have enough knowledge to train a horse to drive. You want your children to be safe driving these horses. Once you have more experience with driving and harnessing then you could look at starting one on your own. Sometimes all goes well and easily but sometimes it doesn't and knowing what to do when it is going wrong can make all the difference in the world. You may be able to find a trainer that will teach you along with your horse!

 

[Annabellarose]

I am going to back up MiLo Minis here with the recommendation of using a professional trainer. I have noticed that Miniature Horse training rates are significantly lower on average than "big" horse training rates and a lot of Miniature Horse trainers charge an "off season" or "winter" rate that is often quite a bit less than their show season rates. A nice bitting rig can run as much or more as one month of professional training. Of course it takes more than one month to train a driving horse, but I think a month with a good professional trainer is far more valuable than a pile of leather straps.

 

[RhineStone]

If you are going to persue a professional trainer, and are looking to participate in the carriage driving type of driving more so than breed show driving, make sure that you get a carriage driving trainer. There are distinct differences in how each would go about training the horse.

When I personally work with horses not my own, I would rather teach the owner how to do the training, than teach the horse. I feel that it takes too long to "learn the horse's nuances" that the owner might already know. For thus reason, I don't believe in doing the "30-day" training thing. I believe that it takes much longer than that to really have a safe driving horse, esp. a breed other than a mini (a lot of minis seem to be "Gifted Children"

). I know more people that have been hurt and more horses ruined by pushing the horse with the calendar instead of its own learning schedule, and at least around here, not too many people are willing to pay for 60-90+ days training. I believe that it takes a year to really get to know the horse and develop trust, and that is why I think the owner is the best trainer (within reason).

Now, that being said, I also realize that there are some people who just aren't cut out to be good trainers. They either lack confidence, lack consistent time with the horse, think they know it all and won't listen, or just simply can't "read" the horse to figure out what to do next. I have found the latter to be the most difficult to "teach", and the most unsafe situation.

Shauna, if you can find those videos even to rent, they will give you a pretty good idea if you think you can do it yourself. They are well-done, and use accepted training methods in the carriage driving industry. Even then, it might be a good idea to have a coach that can show you what to do, and you can work your horse "in-between" lessons. Try to find a local (statewide) driving club, and they might be able to set you up with someone you can work with.

Before, you asked about what harness we recommend. We like Driving Essentials harnesses, but we primarily do ADS carriage pleasure shows, and use the same harnesses for CDE. Another good working/show harness is available from Iowa Valley Carriage. There are also some nice synthetics out there made primarily for CDEs, but we like leather harnesses. If you take care of them, they will last longer than your horse! (See Lori's post under the cleaning harnesses thread!

). If you purchase a harness from a reputable harness maker/seller, they can help walk you through how to measure, what pieces you will need, and get a custom fit, and all that cost is included. It will take up to a month to get the harness, though. But in the mean time, you can be working on your vocal commands, longe line, and in-hand work, which is SO important and will carry through to the rest of your training.

A breed show fine harness is not appropriate and potentially unsafe for the hard turns, ups and downs of a CDE, b/c they are designed for limited time flat work. Make sure you get the right equipment for the job. It's good that you are getting info first, instead of making costly mistakes along the way.

I've seen that a lot!

 

[ShaunaL]

Thank you all for your well-thought-out replies. You are right, a trainer would be the best route and I will look into one locally again but I didn't have much luck last time finding one that fit our needs both financially and logistically. MiLo, I wish you lived here in Southern CA! As Rhinestone mentioned I would rather have a trainer train both of us, rather than just the horse. I am a bit of a do-it-yourself-er anyway

and I am a pretty good trainer of dogs and horses in other areas so I do have confidence and a good feel for my horse. My lack of driving knowledge is a concern for me as I don't want to cause any issues for my horses. BUT if I cannot get a suitable local trainer as recommended (my schedule/health issues do not allow me to travel for training at this time, unfortunately) then I think as long as I don't get too technical (such as trying to train certain headsets with a bitting rig, as Andrea mentioned - I definitely don't think that is something a novice should be trying) I will be ok laying some foundation work for awhile. I am in no rush, this will be a learning experience for all of us so I want to take it slowly and carefully (with the help of this forum also of course!).

I just realized too, my colt just turned two last month and my filly will be two in March, aren't they too young for any serious driving training with a trainer? At what age do you progress past the basic groundwork? I had planned on just staying with the basics of training from the ground until they are 3.

I've asked before but if anyone knows a good and inexpensive trainer close to Ventura.... Later on I will be able to pay more/be more flexible with distance and time but right now I am dealing with some major health issues and also trying to build my small herd by one more filly before the prices get out of my range

so this foundation work is more something to lay solid driving groundwork and keep my horses mentally stimulated.

 

[RhineStone]

The age of the horse probably depends on who you ask, but ADS rules say that the horse must be four years old to compete in a CDE. Our filly is coming two in Feb. (She was born in FL.) and we have had her wear the harness and start wearing a bit, but haven't asked for any pressure on it yet. We have had her since she was 4 mo. All the way along, we have done groundwork, what I call "Showmanship", without too much emphasis on pivots on the hocks. She has learned whoa, stand, walk, trot, come (right), get (left) already just on the lead rope and now we are transferring that to the longe line or free longing. We really only work her once a week or less, b/c we have been working my mini gelding more.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Shauna, you've received some EXCELLENT advice all around; I especially appreciate the 'depth' of Rhinestone's comments.

I completely agree that you don't need a bitting rig. I have never used one; have been training my own(and a few of others')to drive since '86, and have never had the need of one. I began back then w/ a Smuckers' "LITE" harness, and that is STILL my training/everyday harness; it is russet leather, complete w/ sidechecks and breeching. I was fortunate, as a then 'newbie' to driving, to BEGIN by joining the local driving club, and order my first harness through a member therein, who knew enough to advise me properly. I actually WANTED TO 'breed show', and did, successfully, but from the start, I trained to breeching(I no longer use a check except on RARE occasions, but did gradually train to it, as it is still required in the breed show ring).

I use just what Rhinestone mentioned for training. It is really not possible to 'overdo' ground training; in fact, it is your BEST foundation for driving. Take your time, build your foundation slowing and deliberately, allowing your horse to accimate and learn at its own pace.

I also heartily 'second' her comments about training horse AND owner/driver together, if possible, AND about not being tied to a time frame. The occasional horse I trained for others, I would not accept unless I had at LEAST 60 days, and I actually have come to believe it should not be less than 90. I also had good success with owner/horse training situations.

I no longer take horses to actually hook and drive, because I don't have a helper; safety is an issue. However, this summer, I took a mare and did 90 days of ground work on her, so that the owner, who is a horseman herself, but works fulltime, could then move forward w/ her...she has told me the mare is 'going great'. Laying a truly SOLID foundation makes the most sense to me!

I have seen some of the Ozark Mountain 'carriage' harness recommended, and Iowa Valley Carriage is another dealer whose harness I've heard good things about(and is great to do business with; I've bought several bits from Sandee there). Remember that it is completely possible to use a 'carriage' harness in the breed show ring by removing the breeching for breed ring use. If you prefer synthetic, you might consider Chimacum, or Camptown's beta bio harness; also, County Carriages and the Carriage House(in FL) offer nice ones, and of course, so does Driving Essentials...and there are surely others, both who specialize in mini 'only' or in all sizes-across the country.

It should be fine to do basic ground work with your two youngsters; just don't run your sessions for TOO long, as babies tend to have shorter attention spans. I think you are wise to wait until they are a 'full' three years old before proceeding beyond the groundwork stage...you want them to be solid, and patience in this regard should pay off.

Good luck, and kudos for your thoughtful approach!

Margo

 

[Laura of WCF]

If you are going to persue a professional trainer, and are looking to participate in the carriage driving type of driving more so than breed show driving, make sure that you get a carriage driving trainer. There are distinct differences in how each would go about training the horse.
When I personally work with horses not my own, I would rather teach the owner how to do the training, than teach the horse. I feel that it takes too long to "learn the horse's nuances" that the owner might already know. For thus reason, I don't believe in doing the "30-day" training thing. I believe that it takes much longer than that to really have a safe driving horse, esp. a breed other than a mini (a lot of minis seem to be "Gifted Children"

). I know more people that have been hurt and more horses ruined by pushing the horse with the calendar instead of its own learning schedule, and at least around here, not too many people are willing to pay for 60-90+ days training. I believe that it takes a year to really get to know the horse and develop trust, and that is why I think the owner is the best trainer (within reason).

Now, that being said, I also realize that there are some people who just aren't cut out to be good trainers. They either lack confidence, lack consistent time with the horse, think they know it all and won't listen, or just simply can't "read" the horse to figure out what to do next. I have found the latter to be the most difficult to "teach", and the most unsafe situation.

Shauna, if you can find those videos even to rent, they will give you a pretty good idea if you think you can do it yourself. They are well-done, and use accepted training methods in the carriage driving industry. Even then, it might be a good idea to have a coach that can show you what to do, and you can work your horse "in-between" lessons. Try to find a local (statewide) driving club, and they might be able to set you up with someone you can work with.

Before, you asked about what harness we recommend. We like Driving Essentials harnesses, but we primarily do ADS carriage pleasure shows, and use the same harnesses for CDE. Another good working/show harness is available from Iowa Valley Carriage. There are also some nice synthetics out there made primarily for CDEs, but we like leather harnesses. If you take care of them, they will last longer than your horse! (See Lori's post under the cleaning harnesses thread!

). If you purchase a harness from a reputable harness maker/seller, they can help walk you through how to measure, what pieces you will need, and get a custom fit, and all that cost is included. It will take up to a month to get the harness, though. But in the mean time, you can be working on your vocal commands, longe line, and in-hand work, which is SO important and will carry through to the rest of your training.

A breed show fine harness is not appropriate and potentially unsafe for the hard turns, ups and downs of a CDE, b/c they are designed for limited time flat work. Make sure you get the right equipment for the job. It's good that you are getting info first, instead of making costly mistakes along the way.

I've seen that a lot!

Excellent reply... I was checking out your site the other day, very nice and I myself will be looking forward to training my long yearling next spring/summer. I have recently gotten an 15 year old gelding, whom is training me. laura

 

[MiLo Minis]

I have to say that I can get to know a horse and most of it's nuances pretty darned quick in a round pen for 1/2 an hour or so and I don't ever rush a horse "through". Most horses of any size are capable of getting into the shafts within 30 days safely. I don't promise a thoroughly schooled horse in 30 days but a horse that is capable of being driven by a capable driver I do promise. If a horse is NOT going to be able to get in the shafts in 30 days I will let the owner know that within the first week that I have them and then it is up to them to decide if they want me to continue or if they want to come and take their horse home. Rarely does a horse "surprise" me and not reach it's determined potential. Every 30 days of training from me comes with a lesson for the owner. This is both so that the owner can learn the cues and aids I have taught their horse to respond to and for me to assess their ability to finish a green horse if they would prefer not to continue with more training. Usually at that point anyone who really is not capable realizes that is a good idea. The second option is for them to take their horse home and continue on with lessons for themselves that they can take home and apply to their green trained horse. I really love when the client wants to come and learn along with their horse but I don't train BOTH horse and owner at the same time - that is just too dangerous for me. If you are not able to give 100% concentration to a horse in training, which is impossible if you are worrying about a green person on the end of the lines, disaster can happen in seconds! I don't train a horse to drive for CDE OR breed ring - I just train them to drive - it's really all the same if you want to be successful in any venue. I will further a horse towards a specific end if a client requests it though. I am not one to push a young horse into a frame just to get a ribbon, I expect them to win on their own merits and have a good long career. Just my thoughts on training.........

 

[ShaunaL]

You guys are awesome, thanks!

 

[RhineStone]

Excellent reply... I was checking out your site the other day, very nice and I myself will be looking forward to training my long yearling next spring/summer. I have recently gotten an 15 year old gelding, whom is training me. laura

Thank you, Laura. I remember how helpful people were when we started out about 25 years ago. I think it is important and gratifying to be encouraging now to new drivers. Drivers tend to be more supportive of each other like no other discipline I have participated in!

It is good that you have an experienced horse you are learning from. Green and green equals black and blue, especially with no help.

We are teaching a student right now who wants to teach his own gelding. This year, he is going to drive one of our experienced horses at a show or two, so that he can know how it is supposed to feel and what to expect without dealing with the challenges of a green horse. We have found this to be a VERY successful method.

Myrna

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

We do like to start with a bitting rig. They ones we have are a heavier leather so we know they won't break, plus if they do something stupid like rear and fall to the ground, it's no big deal to the rig. I really don't want my harness scuffed....

We do everything from longing to ground driving in the rig. It's only when they go to cart that we switch out. And they get worked in the rig even when trained. Saves wear and tear on my harnesses.

Lucy