Stallion behavior

[vickie gee]

I am really looking for opinions. I have so much to learn about about stallion behavior. One thing I do know is that with small acreage more than one can only lead to trouble. I had a situation develop here yesterday which totally affirms that. My stallion Memphis is 4 years old. He is kept in a large pen on our property which is about 200 yards away from the corral and barn where my mares are right now due to no grass growing in the pasture at this time. J R is another stallion who is in a pen adjacent to the mares. J R will be 2 in March, was sired by Memphis, and has already grown at least an inch taller than Memphis. Yesterday I let J R out to run around in the pasture for a little while to burn some energy. I also knew he would enjoy following me around while I did some chores. I was up near the barn and heard some whinnying going on down at Memphis' pen. I looked up to see that J R was in the pen with Memphis. J R was mounted sideways across him

:shocked Now first of all the gates to the pen were closed and chained. The fence is nearly 5 ft tall with the exception of a hog panel which is about a foot off the ground and so the top of it is about 4 ft high. I am not sure if he wallered under the fence or jumped it. I have seem him jump a fence before that is well over 3 ft high when our female dog fussed at him about getting too close to "her" water trought.They both were getting pretty sweaty.Mostly what the stallions did was push and bully each other. J R seemed to have weight in his favor but Memphis kept dropping to his knees and nipping at J R's legs. Then he would latch onto J R's jaw but not really bite hard. Finally my husband forced Memphis to one end of the pen and I put a halter on J R and lead him out. It was almost like he accepted a draw and was more than willing to be lead back to his quarters. I don't know how he got himself inside the other pen but I know I don't want that to happen again. Does it sound like they were about to fight seriously or just some establishing of dominance going on? I have already built another pen originally for weaning mares. I am wondering if putting J R in it might help the two get better aquainted or at least show Memphis that J R no longer gets to live too close for comfort to the mares. It is actually butted up against the same building that makes one side of Memphis' pen. The building is between the two pens. Horses in the two pens cannot see each other but they are in close proximity. The down side of the unused pen is that one side of it is actually down by the highway and I don't want nutty people stopping down there and being able to reach in to a horse. The up side is that anything going in or out has a fence to deal with that is way over 5 ft tall. Also if J R is the jumper I suspect he is, he stands a good chance of jumping over the fence where I currently keep him and getting in with the mares and that would certainly cause chaos. I know I need to downsize and I am trying to. Meanwhile what might I do to see if father and son could live together in harmony? I realize this could have become quiet dangerous. If you must fuss at me go ahead.

 

[ohmt]

Definitely not a serious fight. If it was, there would be no question about it. I can't even let my boys share a fenceline together-one had to get stitches once when we thought we'd see how it would go. It sounds like your boys are much nicer than mine though and you could probably put them next to each other to get acquainted as long as they can not see mares.

Are you planning on using JR for breeding? If not, I would definitely get him gelded if you have space issues and/or are concerned about all of the testosterone. Then you could see if Memphis and him would get along during the winter to keep each other company or you could turn him out with your mares. Just a thought

 

[Marty]

I just have to ask what kind of 5 foot fence you have that is being jumped?

I've had a few stallions here at one time with no problems who all shared a fence line. I have 4 foot field fencing with a hot wire running about chest high and a hot wire running along the top for when I would put my quarter horse there so he doesn't lean over and wreck the fencing.

The stallions would visit each other at the fence line but that was about it and in no way however would I ever trust putting two of them together. What they do on each side of the fence acting friendly is one thing but I wouldn't experiement about what would happen if I put them together. They were always more interested in grazing but they did also like to keep their eyes on the whereabouts of the mares. I'd say you got lucky that your horse didn't get his mouth ripped off. That's cutting it really close and glad you were right there to break it up. Stallions play very hard and sure, this could have turned into a disastrous fight easily. Good luck and be careful.

 

[Eagle]

I agree with Marty, stallions can be very aggressive but saying that I have no problems with my stallion and his son being together AS LONG AS they are miles away from the girls and it isn't breeding season.

They play very hard and can really bite but it is all a game, if it were aggression their attitude would really change. My 2 play all day and it is great to watch, I posted a video last week of when I first turned them out together after being apart since April.

As you can see they take turns at being the chaser.

 

[mizbeth]

It sounds like they were play - fighting but you do not know what it could escalate to. Breeding season would be a time of concern if they got together. Yes, putting them side by side would help, eventually they would stop trying to charge each other at the fence line assuming they did not turn and butt kick the fence (they can get their legs/hocks caught in the wire) One has to submit, that is the law of nature. When that happens they will be just fine. I know lots of breeders who run many stallions together at one time, and seem to have no serious problems. I knew one lady who did that and one stallion bit the ear off the other one - SO, ruined a good show horse over it.

I would always be observant with your horses to how they behave. Some mares can get pretty nasty too, so what you are doing is right. I agree with Marty though, what kind of a 5 foot fence could this guy have jumped???? And yes, electric wire will sure keep them away from each other at the fence line. One wire at chest + high the other a bout 1' lower. I am 5.8' tall and drop my arm down and hold it to the fence. I run the wire at the top of my wrist for the top wire........and at the top of my knee for the bottom wire. (for the height to measure when the wire/lines run)

Good luck in any case...

 

[Tab]

I would doubt there was anything serious going on. My boys battle for dominance, but it's more posturing than anything serious or troubling. Mares do similar things to establish a pecking order. Even at the height of breeding season my boys play fight, but they often ignore each other until someone is watching, then they make it a game for attention. It seems serious when stallions first meet but they would probably become fast friends after they wear each other out. Personally, I find it sad that my stallion was all by himself for so long. It's sad for a horse to be alone and they can form very close bonds with bachelor buddies. Joe and his grandson Romeo are very close and Lexington and (his brother from a different mother) Top are close.

I realize putting stallions together is out of the question for a lot of people, but I always watched Joe run himself ragged when he was alone. I believe he was putting more of a strain on his system than his is while playing with his buddies. I had two full-sized geldings that would go at it pretty intensely, but it was also play-fighting and neither ever harmed the other.

I wouldn't doubt that JR went under the fence. Minis will often take the easiest route. I'd watch him, he very well may have gone under it. You better check your fences, because when they learn they can do something they will do it over and over. They'll find a way to get in with the mares if the height of the fence is high enough to go under. It wouldn't hurt to add some type of extra barrier.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

My stallion Carlos, who is now six, is out every winter with whichever boys are around. This year it is two yearling colts and DC a three year old gelding who is not yet aware he is a gelding. They mess around, they bicker and there were a few more serious bust ups when they first went in, mainly with DC chasing the yearlings- Carlos is a lot more tolerant. They share a fence line (hotwired on both sides) with the weanlings and have a clear view of all the mares.

Rabbit I cannot put anywhere near another male, so I understand both sides of the discussion, but I would actually advise you get your boys as used to one another as you can, this is the right time of year to do it. Even if you never feel confident about putting them in together (and it is a leap of faith) then at least if something goes wrong one day and they get in together, they are familiar with one another. Two strange males will fight a lot more than two that already have been introduced!

 

[Tab]

I also want to add a bit of caution to the the "stallions together" advice. I think if there is a big size difference in the stallions and if the stallions have not grown up together it can be dangerous. It is always good to gradually introduce horses of any sex to each other and it is good to have a large space for them to establish their pecking order. Unwise to throw two strangers into a small pen together, no matter the sex. I think caution is always good advice with horses. If you still think it is a big risk to put your stallions together, trust your intuition and do what is best for your circumstance.

Horses do prefer company but there are always some exceptions to the rule. I agree with Rabbitsfizz in this

 

[vickie gee]

Thanks all for your input.

ohmt, No plans for using J R for breeding. Will geld him if he does not get a new home soon. In fact, I plan on laying off any breeding in 2012...need to recover from the $$$ spent on hay this year. A real lesson in reality. Plans are in the making for a move in a couple of years so we need to spend less $$$ on animals and more on curb appeal for our place.

Marty, The pen is 5' horse wire with the exception of the hog panel where J R had to have EITHER gone under or over which at that spot is just under 4' high.

Eagle, Loved your video. Wish I had a video camera with me while the boys were scrapping. Although I was concerned about them hurting each other, they looked like mighty and magnificent twins showing off.

Mizbeth, I don't have electricity on that end of the property. We have talked about it. It would be nice in that I could trade my flashlight in for an on/off switch as well. But then I would probably get spoiled and want running water down there and miss my workout carrying water buckets

Castle Rock, I agree that they probably were just playing. I know Memphis does get lonely but he does have two very nosey goats stop by to visit often and two very protective big dogs lazing outside his pen. He also gets some time out to exercise. As soon as I let him out he runs up to the lot where the mares are to let them know he is the man. He has to cross over a wooden bridge to get there...clippety, clop in fast motion...now that is what I really need to video.

Tab and rabbitsfizz, I think since the temps here have finally cooled I am going to enlist my husband's help in socializing the boys more by us taking them on walks together.