Shetland Influence

[LaVern]

This is my thinking.

Whether we like it or not, todays Shetland Ponies will have a huge influence on tomorrows AMHR miniatures. And if correctly measured in they have every right.

Our horses of the future can not help but be influenced by them, as the Shetland blood is the ONLY outside blood we can bring in.

Also the training of new miniature judges is designed to train new judges to be Pony Judges. Most new judges will want to get their license to judge- Miniature- Shetland- Modern as long as they are doing it. Now those perspective judges are going to become familiar with all these types. Familiarity breeds acceptance and acceptance leads to appreciation.

Once you see enough roman noses you get to thinking they are not so bad. I know- I have been there. Offta. LaVern

 

[disneyhorse]

Well, I have only been in miniatures for just over ten years... and exclusively tried to buy AMHR-only horses because much prefer driving the B's... and I have been to the National show many times in that period.

There has been a significant increase in the number of ASPC/AMHR registered animals... and this is because they are WINNING. And why are they winning? Because they bring valuable qualities that breeders and exhibitors want.

I do believe that those who cling to the "old style" minis simply do not want to go through the effort to change their breeding program... sure they slowly try to bring in more refinement... but the ASPC animals bring a BIG dose of quality more quickly, so that is why a lot of breeders and exhibitors have jumped on the bandwagon. The ASPC horses have what mini people want... long thin necks, good bodies, long legs, and movement. Movement is one of the biggest contributions I have seen from the ASPC animal in just over a decade at the National level.

Now, it's not like the ASPC animal came from nowhere... I checked out much older Journals and they have always been there with their fans. However, Nationals gets bigger and bigger. There is more and more competition. Your halter geldings are no longer the "not-stallion-quality" minis, they are stallion-quality horses that exhibitors have willingly gelded to be more competitive in the classes.

I have seen the ASPC animal excel in the halter classes... obviously the success of Sundance LB and Establo horses is not unnoticed by the majority.

Now, they are taking the driving ring by storm.

People are breeding MANY MORE ASPC/AMHR registered animals, so it's easier for people to find them. When I first started looking five years ago, there were WAY less to be found. Now you see them everywhere as their popularity grows.

I am seeing more AMHA/AMHR/ASPC registered stallions out there. I think a movement to find more that are 34" and under is huge.

I also feel that there will be an increasing number of people looking for ASPC "Modern, not Classic, with Hackney background" that will measure under 38" tall. I think people DO want those Park and Roadster horses that are more like the APSC ones. Ten years ago, the Park Harness classes at Nationals were a JOKE. Lately though, some of those little Modern ASPC ponies will really show people how its done.

There is nothing wrong with the ASPC registered horse, even if its small enough to register AMHR, as long as it's bringing quality. Honestly, I made a switch to ASPC ponies, the big ones... and went to check out Congress. I was FLOORED by the quality there. Unlike Nationals, where there may be a class of eighty horses, only fifteen of which are really "quality contenders"... Congress really raised the bar and there were NICE horses. The quality of the ASPC animals really impressed me (and I am generally very hard to impress).

Soooo.....

I don't think the majority of National level breeders and exhibitors are going to be deterred by the ASPC animals, because I've seen a lot of them just shrug and welcome them into their program. I think it's around to stay.

Andrea

 

[Boinky]

where would the mini industry be without influences such as "Rowdy" or "Buckeroo"? Rowdy was shetland and Buckeroo, lets face it, if truth be told is probably 100% shetland or pretty darned close. people seem to forget that. why should any horse that fits the description of AMHR's rules be told it's not worthy? it may just be that horses influence down the road that you (i mean that at everyone) will base your very sucessful breeding program on!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Well I for one won't be jumping on the bandwagon to join the AMHR/ASPC group (tried, totally backfired), but I will admit that I like the look and like disneyhorse has said they bring on some beautiful movement. Also like you said the newer judges that are coming in are also going for more the shetland look, sorry but thats just the way its going to be if your showing in AMHR. Do I like it no, I have brought up in the past where I wish they would have foundation classes for the minis, they have them for the shetlands why not the minis.

Of course we try to breed for better and better and going against these shetlands I think sure has helped the miniature horse "breed". We watched a tape from a AMHR show way back in 2003, thats just 6 years ago and we weren't showing the horses like we are showing today. Back then it was alot more stockier built, the movement wasn't there, and its funny now we are showing them with bridlepaths clear down in the middle of there necks if not lower, back then it was to the ear like in QHs if not a lil longer. Thats how much it has changed in 6 years, I think then or atleast a year later we were starting to see a change.

I will continue to show and support AMHR, I will just have to work harder when it comes to my breeding program.

 

[LaVern]

Ah, I don't believe it. The Shetland people just want to cash in. Lets go dig him up? I know where he is buried.

 

[~Lisa~]

There is nothing wrong with the ASPC registered horse, even if its small enough to register AMHR, as long as it's bringing quality. Honestly, I made a switch to ASPC ponies, the big ones... and went to check out Congress. I was FLOORED by the quality there. Unlike Nationals, where there may be a class of eighty horses, only fifteen of which are really "quality contenders"... Congress really raised the bar and there were NICE horses. The quality of the ASPC animals really impressed me (and I am generally very hard to impress).

Andrea

Well I know it has been a few years since you have been to Nationals but I have to respectfully disagree that in a class of 80 driving horses only 15 can be competitive contenders that is simply not the case as far as I am concerned. I have seen horses that can easily place from champion to 10th in each and every split of the driving classes -The quality is there and the class fillers are there just like at Congress- every show has their class fillers no matter what the breed and those people usually end up upgrading as time goes on

I can only speak for myself I have been a class filler and have placed and have had fun and learned no matter what the case

 

[disneyhorse]

I have brought up in the past where I wish they would have foundation classes for the minis, they have them for the shetlands why not the minis.

Unfortunately, it's hard to say what a "foundation" mini is, exactly. I think in the past TWENTY years the miniature horse has improved SO dramatically. Breeders all across the board really have worked HARD to get the mini to where it is. It's no longer all about "size" it's also about quality of conformation and movement. Sure, the ASPC horse has been a stepping stone in the past decade. BUT.... what is the "foundation" mini exactly? Is it the type of 20 years ago, that some call "draft type" minis? It is the coarser-than-the-current-trend mini?

Even in the ASPC, the "foundation" winning pony has evolved. Today's ASPC ponies showing in the foundation classes look more extreme than what they used to be.

Breeds change and evolve. Hopefully for the better! But as they evolve, people will always have sour grapes if they prefer what has been passed, and refuse to be adaptable.

That's why it's so important to stick with what you like. One of the GREATEST things I have found about the miniature horse is how VERSATILE the breed is. Sure, you can't show your draft-type mini in halter at Nationals and place, but it can be a wonderful companion animal, therapy horse, or obstacle-driving horse at the National level. Your Roadster type mini probably won't excel in the obstacle-driving at Nationals, they are just two totally different horses.

I think the variance in type is part a curse for the breed (as people here are fighting over what's better or how it should be) but I find it a blessing in that someone can find a mini for any purpose.

Andrea

 

[LaVern]

I should not get on this topic because I get so blooming crazy. Although I tried to make a joke you are so right Boinky. I bet that a lot of us AMHR miniature breeders have more honest Shetland breeding in our horses than a lot of the reg. Shetlands out there.

It used to be find a pretty pony - go looking for some paper to match.

"Anything for the improvement of the breed", was what the old boys used to say. It didn't matter if it was a reg. stallion they used. or even the right one on the papers or even the right breed.

So that is what gets me the most, is that our honest straight old AMHR horses have created an arena for them to show us how much better they are.

Enough Already, LaVern

 

[disneyhorse]

Sorry, LaVern... but I don't believe it's only the ASPC horses that have falsified papers. I think there are plenty of AMHR animals out there where you can "put any stallion you like on that foal's papers..."

I have heard that a lot of the ASPC problems were reduced when they finally ALLOWED breeding to the hackneys and welsh ponies on the papers... I have some Moderns that have Hackney registered horses listed. That way, it was legit for you to breed your Shetland to a Hackney and let the Registry know, you didn't have to do the breeding "out behind the barn."

Hopefully the pictures will help reduce that... but without DNA required in AMHR or ASPC... a black horse with no markings is a black horse with no markings.

Andrea

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I'm not looking to take a step backwards, but make it to where more people may possibly enjoy showing more and not say oh i got beat by a shetland. Maybe have your mini not have any shetland breeding couple generations back. That way they aren't showing against the AMHR/ASPC horses. I know difficult but thats the way I feel about it. Yeah I know they came from shetland background, but yes they have envolved since then. My minis aren't draft looking minis, they simply have more the QH built and not so much the arabian look.

Yes you are right these minis are versatile, and thats what I like about them. I have a QH built gelding that was a Reserve Champion in Roman Chariot and Top 5 in Obstacle driving and can also do a million other things. So yes if you have a good minded horse that wants to work then you can have that top roadster horse and obstacle horse.

 

[LaVern]

GOTTA GO ONE MORE TIME Gotta disagree Disneyhorse. Not with the B's. You see 20 years ago there were just a few of us that loved them. There was no reason to lie. They weren't worth anything. Lot of cheating and lying with the A' AMHR and AMHA, but not our dear B's until the Shetland people figured out they could profit off them.

 

[kaykay]

Lavern

I just dont get why you always post so negatively about Shetlands and "Shetland" people? If you dont want to buy or breed ASPC/AMHR then dont. No one is forcing you! Just keep doing what you love.

I bet that a lot of us AMHR miniature breeders have more honest Shetland breeding in our horses than a lot of the reg. Shetlands out there.

Where does that come from?? First you want to call yours "full blooded miniatures" and deny or put down their Shetland breeding but then on the other hand you say yours "shetland breeding" is more honest then others?? I just dont get it. You cant have it both ways.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Shetlands were NEVER supposed to have to hardship into the very registry they created (AMHR) Somehow it got slipped though at a meeting and the membership let it go.

I really am just trying to understand what it is you dislike so much but I just cant understand your posts

Kay

 

[Laura Leopard]

I think the Shetlands are beautiful horses, and I've only been around a select few at shows. My only concern with breeding them back with the traditional mini is temperment. Like I said, I've only seen a few and the few I've seen have been "hot", you know, harder to handle. Now, that energy and "showy" attitude is wonderful in the show ring, but it would not make for a family pet. My minis are shown, but they are pets first. I know many people have them as only pets. The sweet mini personality is what drew me to them in the first place. I felt comfortable with them and I enjoy handling, and driving my boys without worry. I do love the look of the Shetland, especially when they are driving, but I just don't want to loose the sweet personality of the mini by the increased cross breeding.

* I know there are probably sweet, loving, Shetlands out there, just like there are hard to handle minis, so please nobody take offense to anything I said. It is just a personal preference/opinion.

 

[LaVern]

Well, I guess the only way I can explain my hang up is to give you an example. First a little background. I've been around along time. And AMHR is a big part of my life. I have supported and lived it for so many years and am very proud of how far we have come.

I don't get off the farm to often, but once in awhile I try to take in a few thing to keep up.

Last fall my good buddy Dot and I decided we would go to the Convention. Now Dot has been with AMHR as long as I have and she has also been a very good girl.

Okay, so us two good old girls are having a nice time and off we went to the big planned supper at Dollyville. Well we are sitting their eating our chicken or maybe it was a duck, anyway it was a bird of some kind. And the announcer comes over the loud speaker. "We would like to welcome the "AMERICAN SHETLAND PEOPLE." Dot looked at me and I looked at her and , my heart went to my stomach, along with that bird.

I know it is silly, but after so many years. Someone had to tell that guy what to say and they did not think enough of the AMHR miniature breeders to even mention us. I just felt so sad. This is just one example it has gone on for years.

Sometimes I think, oh get over it, but then something like this happens and I just feel used. Give me your money and keep your mouth shut.

So it is not the Shetland Pony that I have a problem with.

 

[icspots]

I'm not sure we need a new class JMS, what we need at the national level is HONEST MEASURING. So the horses that have been showing all year long in one height division aren't suddenly showing in a smaller division at the nationals!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Honestly I think the whole height problems will always stick around. Its just the miniatures have a whole different variety of types but still have the good conformation to go with it.

 

[txminipinto]

I'm just going to remind everyone that the ASPC was here first and then developed the AMHR. Regardless, shetlands, big and small, have always been here (even under 38"). And I find it hilarious that ANYONE would think that SHETLANDS have higher billing than the miniatures. PLEASE! Us "shetland people" are DESPERATE for more public exposure and frills when it comes to the Congress. EVERYONE knows what a mini is, but very few appreciate the beauty, family friendly, and versatility of the American shetland. Frankly, I'm offended by this topic yet again. No one wants to give credit where credit is due, honor the history, or even understand the breed itself! I can't tell you how many non mini people have thought my 46" stallion was a mini....hardly, and you should see their disbelief as I proudly boast he is American shetland. And you know the response I get? "Na, shetlands are those dumpy short necked dwarfs".

Shetlands have always been here and they aren't going any where. Its funny how you hear of people and farms going shetland but you never hear of a shetland farm or person going mini....wonder why?

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

This is entertaining!

 

[TomEHawk]

Hi All,

I normally don't reply to much. I just read, make my own opinions, keep quite and continue on. But I feel as a "shetland person", it might not hurt. I do like the influence that the shetlands have had on the miniature horse registries. I like the longer necks, the better movement. But as someone had stated earlier, you do lose some of the nicer heads that have been bred to obtain for so long. But that is one thing I don't mind trading off for all that I can get from breeding to the shetlands. Now, again someone earlier stated that they don't like the "hotness" that comes from the shetlands and that all of their minis are pets first and show horses second. I do agree with you, many shetland lines are known for being a bit hot, but there are quite a few known for their willingness to learn, be shown and still be a "kids horse/pet pony". You just have to look for them.

Next I'll discuss the pony papers being falsified in the past and some going on now. Well, for those who have been around and for those that are just learning, YES there are papers that are wrong. But some "mini people" feel that all mini papers are exactly what they say they are, past or present. I can tell you from speaking to many long time breeders from the AMHR and AMHA, many miniature papers are nowhere near as correct as some think. I know some of the minis and ponies I've bought are wrong somewhere in their papers, but from my breeding on, they are correct.

I don't like labeling "shetland people" or "mini people", I'd just like to call all of us "small equine enthusiasts". All the "crap" with all fighting among us really has to stop. We're all going to shows with each other, conventions with each other and some other functions, we all have to learn to get along. It's obvious we're all not going to agree all the time, (maybe not even some of the time), but we all should at least try to compromise with each other. If not for anymore reason than just to make life a little easier. I'm always open for conversation at shows, online or call me at home, (I'm listed in the AMHR Journal as an Area 4 judge & steward), to anybody from any background. I really do love to talk, just don't get to mad when I ramble off.

 

[LaVern]

I don't think this is fighting. I think it is great when people just say what they feel. Just let it out and say what you believe. My mind has been changed many times, by what someone has said on this Forum.