Seller responsibity - where does it end?

[Littleum]

youch.

Sometimes their bites shift around as they grow, but that is NOT normal shifting. That's ugly. :\

 

[midnight star stables]

Well - it is interesting reading everyone's opinions. I have been ripped off many times with the purchase of miniature horses. I do know that it will never happen to me again - because I plan to sell all of my horses and walk away from this part of my life. I can't trust anyone - whereas I tend to be way too honest (if that is possible).
I plan to have the filly checked by my vet to make sure that there isn't anything else going on in her mouth. She is undershot - not overshot - that is why I am so concerned.

I used to breed show dogs and stood behind my breeding program 100% - and I am the same with the minis - but I guess that isn't the way that all breeders feel!!!!!

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I am not new into the breed - I did lots of research and homework when I first started into minis. I have spent a lot of money buying the best that I could afford - and I do have some really nice horses. But I have had way too many bad experiences and although I totally love and adore the breed - I am at a point where I need to move on. I believe that the breeder of this filly would try to rectify the problem - but to ship this filly back will likely cost me $1000 to $1500 and if she replaced this filly with another one - the cost to ship that horse here would be the same. So my original investment which was high (especially in the market today) would have another $3000 tacked on to it - and for what? It is difficult to sell anything in this market - unless you are one of the "big" breeders.
I have purchased a horse that was starving (she was represented as being "thin" when she was actually emaciated) - and when I posted about that mare (and the seller still posts lots on this forum) - my posting was deleted. I never once mentioned the mare's name or the seller's name - as I didn't want to cause a scandal - but when the seller found the posting she told the whole world who she was etc and the posting was deleted.

I purchased a lovely bred mare from a breeder (far away from me) and when the mare foaled a 24" colt I questioned the breeder on the stallion and it was only then that she mentioned that the mare had "gotten in" with her shetland stallion - why wouldn't she have told me that before?

The list goes on and on. Obviously I am way too trusting and that is a fault of mine.

I had someone inquire recently about a mare that I have for sale - I told her all of the good qualities about the mare and also told her what the faults of the mare were. She commended me on my honesty and couldn't quite believe how honest I was. She didn't buy the mare - and that was OK with me as I don't want to sell a horse to someone that isn't exactly what they really want.

I know that there are honest people out there - and I have bought some very nice horses from honest people - but there are too many out there that are happy about making a sale and what happens after that they really don't care about.

:No-Sad

I feel for you and My heart goes out for you!

I remember the mare you bought that was *thin* - I just want to THANK YOU for sharing that. I was considering a horse from that farm, and decided against it after your post. I don't want to support a seller with bad ethics.

Also I'm shocked about your 24" foal - what came to be of him? A major discount or rebate should have been in order!

I have bought one horse on a very trusting level and the horse was coming from a "name" breeder - and I WAS pleased when my horse arrived (The horse was a bit rough around the edges, but nothing that couldn't be helped with time and patients. ) I've also got one that I was not pleased with, who came from another breeder.

My first real purchase, when I was more green, turned out fabulous - when I didn't ask the right questions, The seller went above and be on, telling, explaining, and showing me these things. This breeder and I STILL keep in contact regularly even after she is out of breeding.

I try to match any horse I have offered for sale with the right person. I have lost sales but I feel good at heart. I had a colt for sale with no real interest with him intact, and JMHO he wasn't Amazing stallion quality, just decent so I gelded him and I am now offering him as a youth horse as he has a heart of gold. I've lost a lot of money on this colt, BUT he will make a kid very happy and that is what matters to me.

I urge you to stay in the business if you can bare it - More honest people like you are in high demand... but you are right, there is little money in it - just bills

Again, I'm so sorry for you and this poor filly!

 

[icspots]

This whole topic is really going down a "slippery slope". Yes there is the LEGAL viewpoint that means no recourse most likely. But the MORAL and ETHICAL viewpoint is that the seller is in the wrong. I know in our area we have several sellers that are less than ethical and they make it a point to be at every expo, sale, etc. and as is the case with all good con artists are the "nicest" people.....they prey are new people, and don't have any conscience issues when they screw them over. I wish those people would go away forever, they are bad for business, they are bad for the breed, and people keep buying from them. I feel soooo bad for you, because the cost was amplified with the shipping issue. The seller really does need to step up and make this right or they need to be outed so more people don't fall victim to their less than lofty business practices. You can't chalk this up to barn blindness, an off bite is an off bite, they knew about it before they hauled the horse that they represented as show quality. IMO, the breeder needs to take the monetary hit on this one which of course we know they won't do at this point. And as a side note, even though I somewhat understand the posts that have quite harshly noted that the buyer didn't do their job so tough luck the seller fullfilled their responsibility, I have to say that for me anyway that is a red flag about the ethics of THOSE people.

 

[Basketmiss]

If this breeder wont make it right then, It is a sad world we live in that people arent responsible for THEIR actions!

Legal or not, I say the breeder IS responsible. They had to know the bite was off or they never looked in the horses mouth, also not being a good breeder IMO.

You didnt shove that bite off on that horse-sarcasm..

But in this world if the breeder doesnt want to make it right you probably will lose-I am sorry you have had this happen . I hope you dont get rid of all your babies because of this instance...

Communication is the most important part.. Talk to this breeder and maybe they will work with you, even if they pay 1/2 the shipping fee, that will help.. Good Luck..

 

[minie812]

Hi everyone - I am working on finding transport to send this filly back to the breeder (of course at my expense). I thought you would like to see a picture of the bite on this show quality filly. It is a shame as the filly is so pretty - but this isn't show or breeding quality in my mind.

Holy Moly...that IS bad!

 

[Riverdance]

SHAME, SHAME, SHAME on that breeder

That kind of bite is not something one did not notice and when she did, she was obligated to tell you and NOT ship the horse.

She should be totaly responsible to the shipping costs not only back to her farm, but to your farm as well , and, I would surely NOT take a replacement as you are going to get something very less for your money.

These type of breeders should be SHOT

We need to have a way of being able to weed these kind of sellers out. Can you imagine what it must be like for foreign buyers who have to spend thousands of dollars to buy and ship horses to them. Austrailia and New Zealand cost $12,000 to get a horse shipped to them and can you imagine how they would feel if they recieved a horse like that?

 

[user 488]

SHAME, SHAME, SHAME on that breeder

These type of breeders should be SHOT

We need to have a way of being able to weed these kind of sellers out. Can you imagine what it must be like for foreign buyers who have to spend thousands of dollars to buy and ship horses to them. Austrailia and New Zealand cost $12,000 to get a horse shipped to them and can you imagine how they would feel if they recieved a horse like that?

I couldn't agree more. That is really DISGUSTING. Those teeth are bad new and I agree.....the breeder should be shot.

And don't think people overseas have not been screwed royally..........leg issues, teeth issues.

It's equally as disgusting. There is no recourse for them as it costs more to deal with the issue then just keeping the horse. I know more than I want to know and I have a very short list of people I would actually trust in this breed. What a shame for the honest breeders in this business.

 

[Magic]

OMG, that is one of the worst bites I've ever seen!

I find this entire thing really sad. How could someone sell a horse with a bad bite as a "show and breeding" prospect? Even though this bite has been said to be getting worse, it wasn't "on" when the horse was sold. That's so wrong, on so many levels.

 

[js1arab]

Since when is the seller obligated to do anything? It is the BUYERS responcibility, not the sellers. The seller can not LIE about the horse, other than that, its the buyer. The buyer is not required to be made aware of anything... its their duty to discover everything they can to make an informed decision. If the buyer didn't do even a basic exam, either by a trusted associate, vet, or themselves, they can blame nobody but themselves for the bad purchase.

While I agree that a buyer should do their best to educate themselves on the proper questions to ask and things to look for, I strongly feel the seller has a responsibility as well. A truly ethical breeder wants his horses to have a good home and is equally concerned for the safety of the new owners as well. The seller has owned or raised the horse for a long period of time and has the opportunity to know the intricate details of the animal. Just because the horse may be conformationally correct, what about mentally sound???? What if the horse experienced a bad situation and is perfectly calm except for a certain noise or object, these are things I think should be told to a new owner to avoid horse or handler from being hurt.

I sold a green Arabian gelding to a 72 yr old woman several years ago. I tried my best to convince her to look into an older horse, but she'd had one similar to mine and was in love with him. She wanted to finish him herself. I asked her to find a trainer to help. She did not know one, so I told her I would find one for her and take the cost of the training off of the purchase price. She agreed and has been riding him ever since. She has now developed Alzheimer's and the family says some day's the only thing that brings her memory into focus is being around "Taz". Everyone in the family loves him and is thankful for what he has given their mother. Had I not taken responsibilty and just said oh well, her choice to buy a greenie, he might have gotten her hurt and then been discarded by an angry family. Instead he has been a loving and beneficial part of a family and in return has a home for life. Money shouldn't be the "whole" picture. If that is the sole motivator, then I feel sorry for the horses and the new buyers.

*Please note that I am not saying this is the intentions of the seller mentioned as the buyer did say they would probably make right on the situation minus the shipping*

 

[End Level Farms]

I have only seen a bite like that once. And I received the horse in a package deal where the breeder was selling out and DUMPING their horses. Didnt care where the horses ended up. There was a death or something the lady was very weird to deal with. Anyway I got 5 minis from the lady and she threw in this 6th one or she was going to shoot it. Cute little filly. Short and dumpy but cute. Anyway she said all their teeth were correct and their legs were as well. But the 6th one wasnt her legs were straight but the bite was not.

I sold the filly for more than I paid for the entire group of them once I had put weight and taken care of vet bills and farrier bills and advertised the filly as PET ONLY!!! BAD BITE. I had pictures and X Rays of just how bad the bite was on the filly. I had them in hand when people came to see the horse. None of them ended up taking her. She was bought over the internet sight unseen other than pictures. But I sent them the pictures and X rays over the internet for them to see. Represented her fully. She was a double registered filly. And has gone on to be a youth performance horse. Coruse the girl doesn't show her in halter.

The buyer was VERY happy when she received the filly. But I was FULLY FULLY FULLY up front on the state of the filly her bite ect.

 

[Reble]

I have heard and seen a few good breeders in Ontario that do not care about broodmares teeth being off

Everyone looking for the perfect stallion, but what about our mares and fillies

I cannot find it now, but did you say, you are going to send her back?

 

[Magic]

I have heard and seen a few good breeders in Ontario that do not care about broodmares teeth being off

Everyone looking for the perfect stallion, but what about our mares and fillies

Are they REALLY "good breeders" though, if they breed mares with bad bites? OH! A "good breeder" IMO is one who is trying to improve the breed overall, for one thing. That means not breeding any animal with a major fault. All horses have faults of some sort and to some degree, but there are some that just should never be reproduced, and bad bite is, IMO, one of those, and a biggie.

If one wouldn't be happy with a foal that is an exact replica of the mare, then I really don't think that such a mare should reproduce. JMO.

 

[Reble]

I have heard and seen a few good breeders in Ontario that do not care about broodmares teeth being off

Everyone looking for the perfect stallion, but what about our mares and fillies

Are they REALLY "good breeders" though, if they breed mares with bad bites? OH! A "good breeder" IMO is one who is trying to improve the breed overall, for one thing. That means not breeding any animal with a major fault. All horses have faults of some sort and to some degree, but there are some that just should never be reproduced, and bad bite is, IMO, one of those, and a biggie.

If one wouldn't be happy with a foal that is an exact replica of the mare, then I really don't think that such a mare should reproduce. JMO.

Well, lets just say well known sellers in the miniature horse world.

The same thing with knowing their stallion has had stiffle problems, and still breed.

 

[~Lisa~]

Well, lets just say well known sellers in the miniature horse world. The same thing with knowing their stallion has had stiffle problems, and still breed.

I think in this breed more so then anyothers to many try to defend the faults horses have saying oh the stifle is not bad it was a injury or oh the bite is not off teeth are coming in- oh he doesnt toe out really it was bad farrier work as a foal.

In some cases this just might be true but in a majority of cases it is simply a excuse

 

[Keri]

Ouch! What a bad bite! Sorry you have to go through this.

I purchased a horse from another state and had it shipped. Quite a bad experience on my part with the condition in which the filly arrived and such. And when the person was confronted, they blew up instead of taking full responsibility (paid to have the horse wormed, etc. Came to me very thin and wormy as a 4 month old). Needless to say, I purchase all my horses locally. We have great breeders nearby who ship in lots of horses themselves. I prefer to go look at the horse I'm buying and know of any predisposed conditions.

As a seller, I back up my horses 100%. I'm blatantly honest about their personalities/likes/dislikes/training/etc. Its too bad the person can't back up their own breeding. Puts a bad name on their farm to treat their customers that way. And make you pay to have the horse shipped back.

 

[mydaddysjag]

When I purchased Domingo we toyed around with the idea of purchasing him sight unseen. With horror stories like this we decided to take a mini vacation and drive out to see him. Yep, we still wanted him. I didnt have my own trailer at the time, so we had hauled right bring him home at a later point.

 

[Riverdance]

I have one more thing to say about this.

AMHR does not require the bites to be good. Many judges will not even look in the mouth. This is also true for testilcles. With AMHA We have to have a vet certificate on file showing the stallion has both.

If AMHR would do this too, perhaps we will have less horses considered breeding and show stock that have poor bites and one or no testicles.

As for broodmares having poor bites. Again SHAME,SHAME, SHAME. :arg! People who are breeding need to read up and learn that the stallion is not going to be able to correct every fault that a mare has. Many can not correct anything at all (probably because their own dam was not all that great). Good breeding stock starts with the mares. Buy the best mares one can afford and then breed to the best stallion one can afford. I say this over and over again, but a mare usually makes up 60% to 70% of the foal. Any Big horse breeder who is worth their salt knows this.

If your horses throw bites like this one, then STOP BREEDING THEM!!

 

[Littleum]

I'm going to wander out here on a limb... (and let me preface it with: the bite pictured in this thread is BAD, and I would cull it from my own program no matter what)

being from big horses, off bites aren't that big a deal unless it interferes with a horse's ability to carry the bit. There was an Oldenburg stallion a few years ago who got approved and had a slight parrot mouth. If you know anything about warmblood keurings, you know that a stallion getting approved is very, very, very serious business. Depending on who you're talking to, a slightly off bite is more often just considered a cosmetic blemish.

So I have to be honest when I say if I had a mare or stallion who was otherwise truly *superb*... gorgeous, awesome mover, champion driving horse, ect... and their most glaring fault was their bite was *slightly* too off to halter, but clearly didn't interfere with their useful lives in any other way.... I don't think I'd cull them from a breeding program. I'm not making a blanket statement, and I generally do not agree with breeding horses with off bites, but if they are an otherwise superb individual in every other respect, I can live with a little bit of a bad bite.

I couldn't live with a bite like the filly's shown. I would be very leery of an underbite over an overbite. I would be very leery of buying foals when I knew one of the parents/grandparents had a notable bad bite. But a very slightly iffy bite is not "no way, no how" deal breaker for me.

Here's food for thought.... my first guy's bite was dead-on. And it was hideous. Snaggle tooth central. And his rear jaw was grossly undershot and did not align ("deformed" was the word used) But those front teeth met dead square. He needed dental work 3x a year. But I could show him in halter (geldings had to show teeth back then) because those teeth met up dead square, yet his mouth was obviously a mess. The irony of it still makes me sigh to this day.

 

[icspots]

I have to go off topic just for a minute and say to Riverdance, maybe you need to go to a few AMHR shows, used to or once did does not qualify you to state that they do not check bites at AMHR, because they do. Maybe not multiple times a day like AMHA, but please do not keep making the statement that AMHR doesn't care about perpetuating quality because they don't constantly check bites and balls! My horses are double registered, does that make them slightly inferior to the AMHA only and slightly superior to the AMHR only???? I don't want to argue but I just don't like the constant implication that AMHR as a whole has inferior horses and standards!

 

[Riverdance]

I have to go off topic just for a minute and say to Riverdance, maybe you need to go to a few AMHR shows, used to or once did does not qualify you to state that they do not check bites at AMHR, because they do. Maybe not multiple times a day like AMHA, but please do not keep making the statement that AMHR doesn't care about perpetuating quality because they don't constantly check bites and balls! My horses are double registered, does that make them slightly inferior to the AMHA only and slightly superior to the AMHR only???? I don't want to argue but I just don't like the constant implication that AMHR as a whole has inferior horses and standards!

I am not implying that AMHR has inferrior horses. You are missinterpreting what I am trying to say. All of mine are double registered too, by the way. I am just stating that all registries should check for bites and testicles at all shows, in every class. That way, people will not be so indifferent to their horses having bad bites. Unfortunatly, AMHR still does not always check for bites, as I know someone who shows a horse with a bad bite in halter and she mostly gets away with it.

Again, this is not a hit against AMHR, but a suggestion as something that all registries should do. Including Pinto and ASPC. Only when people can no longer get away with such blairing faults, will they be more incline to say, yes their horse has a bad bite and should not be shown or bred. (or sold for that matter to some unsuspecting person as a show horse)