Question for all you stallion owners that stand to outside mares

[Robin1]

Some years ago now I bred one of my mares to an outside stallion. The product was a dwarf. The owner of the stallion said I could have a re-breeding, but I would have to give him/her the dwarf as I couldn't have both.

:

I declined and after a few years found the dwarf a wonderful home where she spends her time visiting the elderly. I found out later that this particular stallion had produced more than his share of dwarfs. :no:

Robin

 

[horsesmakeubroke]

We stand a number of sport horse stallions here in Ireland and our terms are "No foal, free return." However, each year there may be one or two live born foals lost either at birth or close to birth and sometimes in the first few weeks. Not all, but some of these losses could even have been prevented. None of these problems can be attributed to the stallions yet we offer these owners a free or at least a reduced return, the following year. We are not legally obliged to do this but we do it as a matter of GOODWILL! I know that not all studs would offer this, but in this day and age of commercialism.... how much does a bit of kindness and decency actually cost! Our customers come back year in year out as they know they will be treated properly. Sadly, the same cannot be said of all studs.

K

 

[spazkat]

Some years ago now I bred one of my mares to an outside stallion. The product was a dwarf. The owner of the stallion said I could have a re-breeding, but I would have to give him/her the dwarf as I couldn't have both.

While Ive not seen it often in horses, this type of arrangement is quite common with dogs when breeders give a health guarantee (they will replace the puppy with another, but original must be returned). Its sure to be a hard decision emotionally, but essentially fair. If you buy something from the store that proves unsatisfactory in some way, they expect you to return the old one before refunding or replacing the item.

 

[Joyce]

I would agree with Kim at Crayonbox.

Joyce L

 

[KBond]

I am aware of the circumstances around Lauralees quandry. It should be noted that this is not the first dwarf this National Champion Stallion has produced - there are several that I have heard about from others who know this breeder. So, just because someone has National Champions, is a "big name" in the industry or any of that other "stuff", you should be careful when selecting sires for your mares. For me, I have learned that if I ever breed to an outside stallion, the contract will say "a registerable foal" and will include the remedies if this does not happen. "Live Foal" Guarantees do not equate to "Live REGISTERABLE" Foals - which, if someone is spending $$$$ for a stud fee, is most likely the expectation. It is unfortunate that this situation could not be resolved in a more amiable outcome........as for me, I will stick to geldings from this bloodline...............

 

[HGFarm]

Well Kbond, if that is true, then I would be holding a gelding party. (in regards to producing a lot of dwarfs)

Yes, this is a good will issue, or a customer service issue, if you must and doing what is right.

If I ever stand to outside mares again, I will be sure to include a 'registerable foal' in the contract, as I think that is only fair!! After all, that is what the mare owner has in mind when paying the money to breed the mare in the first place!!

:

 

[JWC sr.]

When it comes to genetics it is always a problem with what to do with a stallion and/or mare that has produced a dwarf. But in all fairness when someone breeds to a stallion of choice, they expect to be able to improve the bloodlines in the mare owners herd. I would think it would be only fair to have a rebreeding at reduced or no cost, if for nothing else to try an fiqure out if it was the mare or the stallion.

By no means would I rebreed the same way for any amount of money. As far as the gelding thing is concerned, last year we had a stallion I had bought as a colt for a specific bloodline and he had one testicle that was smaller than the other. Not normally a major problem. But when his first foal was produced the colt at a year old had the same problem. We gelded both of them on the same day and put a stop to that deal. LOL We no longer are going to be using that bloodline in our breeding program needless to say. Kind of like nipping a problem in the bud so to speak. Which is the right thing to do personally and for the betterment of the breed IMHO.

As far as the baby is concerned, last year we foaled out a mare for some folks that had bought her at a big horse auction. She had a dwarf, the lady decided to keep the baby and raise it up a a pet. Since then the little guy has gotten worse and worse as far as his legs are concerned even with 4 week trims being done. Now they are having to go thru the traumatic decision of what to do for him now. Eventually he will have to be put down, which is going to be a heartbreaker for them. I personally believe that hard decision should have been made when he was born. It would have been more humane than seeing what the litttle guy is going thru now.

Just my 2 cents worth

:saludando:

 

[Denise]

Hi Kim, I was wondering if this stallion had thrown other dwarfs. I cannot believe that she is still breeding him and then stands him to the public knowing this!

: This whole situation just stinks.

She should at least offer a breeding to a different stallion.

 

[runamuk]

Refund her money right after I gelded the stallion!

Since this happened I would breed neither one again because one or both of them has a hidden dwarf gene.

ABSOLUTELY...DITTO THIS!!!!!

:

:

Since I have heard that all Minis carry the dwarf gene,

That is an unfounded, and therefore, unproven theory...that IMHO, works for those who continue to beed horses after KNOWING they have produced dwarves. I know...mine is probably not a very popular theory to those who are doing it...but my opinion, nonetheless.

I dont think the mare owner should be left out in the cold. It is heartbreaking enough that they ended up with a dwarf baby, when I am sure they expected something else.

You are so right! To not do anything but basically tell them they are SOL...is not only unprofessional, but soooo morally wrong.

I think, in cases like this, names of the farm should be given, even if it is only by PM. Do they really think that we don't talk unmongst ourselves...that we don't tell other people how we are treated? Do they swear you to a circle of silence? Why is it such a terrible thing to tell someone, who has done us wrong? This crap has to stop.

My question is would you be willing to be the one to rat out the big name farms? The national champion stallions?

I think it is a tough call as honestly I would be happy to announce who I have seen in person that have produced dwarves BUT I cannot afford the lawsuit that would most likely follow.......and since I do not breed these animals for a living it isn't worth the risk for me.................I do know for a fact that there are national champions that have produced not 1 but MANY dwarves...........................

now as for the stallion owner leaving the mare owner in that situation I feel that is very bad business and wouldn't be suprised if that mare owner spread the word and honestly wouldn't feel at all bad for the stallion owner at that point........................KARMA

 

[nootka]

I have NO CLUE who this is, what this is, or how it happened, but here is what I would do:

Refund the fee and have a serious look at my stallion as well as consider the mare.

When breeders are honest and I can see both parents, I would say 9 times out of 10 I can see that they were playing with fire genetically. Not bragging, but there are SIGNS that are visible from the outside! Some would argue their meaning, but I just do my own personal research and yes, many national bloodlines are full of problems. Maybe not the mare or stallion themselves but full siblings, offspring or parents.

THIS is why it's necessary for us to at least provide good photos, truthful registration and to fund some research for this problem!

I have had foals born here that were what I would consider showing signs of dwarfism as in with the wrong breeding, it could really go bad...so I chose to either geld or give them away as pets in the case of the filly. BUT like many others I don't do this for a living, so I can manage a loss here or there. BUT I also don't want to incur the wrath of some stallion or mare owner who has issues with the way they think of their stock.

I don't think it is necessarily a "fact of life" with all of them and I really would be interested in seeing photographs of confirmed parents of dwarfs that you could not tell they would create one.

If there are some brave souls out there, it would be an educational thread to show good, clear photos of sires and dams that had produced dwarfs. I'm thinking there would be some visual cues as so far there have been in 99% of what I've seen...(some of them are hard to see from just photos as in underbites).

Not bragging about it, just stating a fact and one that I know more than one longtime breeder agrees with as in its more avoidable than it seems if people would open their eyes.

I am sorry for Lauralee, and I feel terrible that this person thinks so little of their customers and their reputation, ultimately, that they would close the door in her face. I think maybe Lauralee might just want to advertise her foal for "sale by "such and such National Champ (and provide nice photos of said foal accompanied by PQ status)" *LOL* J/K...but...not!

L.

 

[Lauralee]

Hey all,

I just wanted to add:

Checkers was placed in his new home last weekend. He is in Tulsa right now waiting on his ride back to CINDY's (dunpainted) place in Wisconsin. He's going to be spoiled and pampered and have so many friends there.

I don't advocate selling dwarves so of course he was a free adoption.

Also, this ordeal happened several months back and at this point is water under the bridge so to speak. Even if a rebreed were offered I would not want it, after this amount of time, and given the crappy way I was handled as a paying customer. I would however accept a refund of my stud fee.

Someone mentioned lawsuit. I have only spoken and written true events. Therefore, nothing can be classified as slander or libel. In reality I am the only one who has a case, not the stud owner. I am the one that has actual damages in the form of money spent.

Thanks everyone for your kind words, emails, phone calls, and IM's. Anyone who would like to correspond please email me privately at [email protected]

 

[Pandora]

Hey all,

I just wanted to add:

Checkers was placed in his new home last weekend. He is in Tulsa right now waiting on his ride back to CINDY's (dunpainted) place in Wisconsin. He's going to be spoiled and pampered and have so many friends there.

OOHHH I get to meet him!!! My mom is the one delivering him to WI!!! Yay!!! From what my mom said he's soo adorable. They left Tulsa this morning so he'll be in WI late tonight.

 

[KBond]

I don't think it is necessarily a "fact of life" with all of them and I really would be interested in seeing photographs of confirmed parents of dwarfs that you could not tell they would create one.

If there are some brave souls out there, it would be an educational thread to show good, clear photos of sires and dams that had produced dwarfs. I'm thinking there would be some visual cues as so far there have been in 99% of what I've seen...(some of them are hard to see from just photos as in underbites).

Trust me - neither the stallion or the mare show ANY signs of dwarfism. Both are correct, well bred animals. This stallion is drop dead beautiful and the mare is also gorgeous. I also feel Lauralee has been wayyyyy too kind in her dealings over this situation. I also felt she should have advertised the little guy "for sale by XYZ stallion" and let the pix tell the story. The breeder did have some family issues come up and used that as the "out" in this situation - I feel bad for the breeder and their personal losses/stress issues, but, this is their business.......not a hobby.......it just turned out bad all around. Lauralee is out money, time spent on vet trips, etc. I have not known her to breed to outside stallions, except on RARE occasions and this baby was highly anticipated as her next herd sire since her current senior stallion is aged and won't be around forever. The breeder will eventually be ratted out by someone - won't be Lauralee and it certainly won't be me - I can't afford another lawsuit from the "internet"

: But, there are people who know and these things eventually get out. It will be a sad day when that happens as many will have to re-consider their bloodline choices...........some of you who are staunchly advocating that the stallion should be gelded and the mare pulled from the breeding shed will have to seriously look at YOUR breeding when this happens. Not trying to be contrary, but that is just the truth of the matter..........will you then geld your stallions and pull your mares when you find out that this same stallion's bloodline is evident in YOUR herd? My feeling on this whole issue of stallions who produce dwarves is not popular......so, my compromise is this....if you want to breed every mare YOU own to a stalllion you KNOW has thrown dwarves in the past, knock yourself out - be prepared to be responsible for those you create......but NEVER breed him to someone who is PAYING you money without disclosing the possibility. Let the mare owner be INFORMED - then if they still want to take that chance, they do so knowing they may possibly get something that is not the desired outcome. Off my soapbox and back into my hole......... :xkngt:

 

[Mercysmom]

I had a lovely stallion who did well in the show ring for me. Long stretchy neck, gorgeous color, nice conformation - his one flaw in my eyes was that he was a little long in his back. He was a gentleman and well-behaved - my son would sit in the stall with him and groom him and braid his mane and tail.

His sire bred to two of my mares produced the best foals out of my mares - refined, elegant, colorful and they were definitely a "nick" breeding in that the foals were better than their parents - nothing dwarfy about them.

His dam produced many champion foals in her career.

Unfortunately, my wonderful, well-mannered stallion sired three foals - two being dwarves out of unrelated, different mares. The other was a beautiful B sized stallion who is now a gelding.

My boy was gelded and sold to a family who adores him and drives him. His young owner could not keep her hands off of him.

My dwarves are with a friend on a permanent loan.

I had hoped to use my stallion for breeding but it never came to pass. After losing a mini foal in 2005 and the dwarves, I am no longer breeding my mini mares... if I lost them, I would be devastated.

The stallion owner, in my opinion, should have offered a breeding to a different mare or a refund, less the booking fee. That would have been the most professional thing to do as while I loved my dwarves, they are not registerable, showable, profitable animals. Breeding is a business and regardless whether you raise animals or make widgets as a business, you want the best possible product for your dollar.

:

Just my humble opinion.

:

Denise

Silversong Farm

 

[Donna]

I think that is what allot of this comes down to, a Honorable Reputation, I have stood two mares out to two differant farms and have had bad experiences with BOTH, the people I dealt with, I thought were good people turned out to be more money hungry than human. I work with my clients anyway possible, I sold a mare to Wisteria Farm, the mare was bred to my stallion. Within a week of the mares arrival to Mo's she aborted the foal. I gave Mo money back on the loss, didnt have to, but felt good about doing it, because that is part of doing good in this life. I had people telling me "what a fool you are" "you didnt have to do that" "Are you crazy" NO, I am not crazy and I am not a fool, I am a human being with a heart and morals. The thing is, it is never to late to reverse bad decisions and make it right with people. The bad news is, they have added to the already tarnished reputation they had, should have listened to what others had to say, that was the first que, ask around and see what others have gone through with these people. To often we jump into these situations and dont heir to the warning signs. Hope all turns out good for you Lauralee, looks like us good people are always the ones to get the shaft.

 

[Mnmini]

"While Ive not seen it often in horses, this type of arrangement is quite common with dogs when breeders give a health guarantee (they will replace the puppy with another, but original must be returned). Its sure to be a hard decision emotionally, but essentially fair. If you buy something from the store that proves unsatisfactory in some way, they expect you to return the old one before refunding or replacing the item."

You are right, this is a somewhat common practice in dogs, but isn't done so much to discourage the owner from having 2 puppies as much as it is to discourage them from doing the return in the first place. Among really top shelf breeders, it isn't in practice much at all.

Several years ago, my husband and I purchased our first male Standard Schnauzer to show in breed ring. His bite went off, as in a level bite versus scissor. Pretty minor, but I informed the breeder. She asked me what I wanted to do, and I told her I didn't know. She said, "I don't want your dog back, what would I do with him? Do you want another puppy?" We ultimately decided that ending our dogs show career, and neutering wasn't the end of the world, nor did we want to add another dog to the household. Good breeders stand behind their products.

I believe an earlier poster mentioned something about high dollar stallions, and the expectation of producing higher $$ foals. Perhaps this theory still holds true in minis, but it doesn't hold much water in most breeds. "Brand Name" stallions tend to help the small breeder that sells prospects, but only if they are above average prospects. If your yearling western pleasure prospect looks like he couldn't lope a step without hitting himself in the chin, you are going to take a bath. If you hold onto him until you get him to the show pen, and he isn't cutting it..you are at best only going to get your stud fee back, not your upkeep, and certainly not your training fees, and I'm referring to the $5,000 and up stud fees. That's today's horse market, and the glut of well bred animals that are now more available than ever before.

 

[bfogg]

What a shame for both people involved because here was a chance for the breeder to not only do what was right by moral standards but to furthur increase their reputation with very little effort!!!!!!

A breeding to another mare would have meant a happy stallion and very little effort or cost on their part!!!!

And you could bet that Lauralee would have told many people about what wonderful people these breeders are and how well they treated her after this terrible incident.

They could have actually enhanced their farm name!

A dwarf can happen to anyone its how its handaled that makes a difference.

Maybe they will make it right with her.

Hugs

Bonnie

 

[danielledwarf2]

In order to have a dwarf, both the Dam and the Sire have to carry the dwarf gene. Once a dwarf comes, they are both proven dwarf gene carriers and either should not be bred to eachother, or should seriosly consider not having that sire, be a stud at this point, with numerous possibilites of different mares that may or may not carry the gene. There are many dwarf sites explaining the genetics of dwarfs and what happens.

This is a great site

Have a great day everyone!

Danielle

 

[Tony]

I would definitely offer a rebreed to a stallion of their choice or a different mare. I would do whatever it took to make the customer happy.