POLL - AMHR HARDSHIPPING

[Devon]

Also doesnt seem fair we allow under 38" PONIES in that are Registered Shetlands and not Under 38" Grade Ponies

Their both Ponies and they both do not carry the AMHA/AMHR lineage but pony lineage. Maybe even the same lines in registered and non registered..

 

[wcr]

Ok, I will open a can of worms just for the sake of having an interesting discussion.

First question I have is are both registries a height breed or a pedigree breed. If we are a pedigree breed then why are we breeding minis to shetlands/hackneys and not keeping the miniature horse breed pure.

If we are a height breed then why not continue registering horses that meet the criteria. There are many horses out there with a pedigree I wouldn't pay a plug nickle for and many horses that have been sold and not kept up on papers and fall through the cracks that could improve our breed. The cream will always rise to the top and the really good horses with a good pedigree will always be desirable. The best mare on my place was from a leased mare and unknown to me the owner never DNA'd the dam and she died leaving me with a horse that AMHA would not register. I know her pedigree top and bottom and you can't find many with as good but she will lose her pedigree from a stupid mistake.

I also feel that measuring anywhere other than the top of the withers is redundant. I think it is basically dishonest to teach a horse to dip the back to measure shorter than it really is. Let's be honest and admit that there are many oversized horses that when bred to shorter horses produces a horse that measures in size. Many breeders have oversized horses sitting in their pasture and retain A papers. Why are we trying to eliminate these horses from our gene pool? This is where many breeders try to breed the good driving horses.

Last but not least, before I get off my soapbox, let's talk finances. AMHR made a ton of money on people hardshipping A horses into R before raising the hardship prices. The money lost by both registries by not hardshipping horses in is tremendous. Not only are they losing membership fees but also show fees and registration fees and future registration fees of resulting foals. There is a trickle down effect on lost revenue. I personally think AMHA should stop cutting off their nose to spite their face and recognize that most breeders have oversize horses and making a breeding stock registry for horses over 34 so we can stop the dishonest practice of trying to make horses measure in when they are truely oversized. Think of the money to be made if they extended the height requirement to 38 like AMHR.

I expect this to raise a few hackles but I am playing devils advocate for the sake of a good discussion and hope that some will think about what I have said and find some merit to it. Flame on.

 

[user 488]

I

Do you realise that AMHR is having vote on horses measured at TOP OF WITHERS next Annual Meeting.. How stupid to call THE SAME AMHA/AMHR horse "36" AMHR Registered" and "34" AMHA Registered""?? Stupid, stupid STUPID!!!!

Where is the soap box smilie when you need it???

Here it is ML......I'm with you on this one!

At least, AMHR is showing some signs of progression and intelligence. As for the other?

 

[Minimor]

If I am not mistaken, I believe that all the equines (ponies horses whatever) that were registered with AMHA and AMHR when they started the registrys had their other papers destroyed because this was to be a true new breed.

Actually they had their Shetland papers thrown away because it was at a time when Shetland sales were in a slump & those trying to promote their ponies as mini "horses" thought they would do better if they pretended their ponies weren't actually ponies. AMHR was started as a new way to market the smallest of the Shetlands. I guess it worked to some extent, because look how many people actually believe that Minis are horses and Shetlands are ponies, and horses are so superior to ponies. Ya, right, whatever, it just goes to show that a name does carry a lot of weight with some people!

23 years ago I had the very first ever miniature horse show in Michigan. We had over 100 horses, under 34", and not one of them had papers then. If we had true miniatures back then, why do we need to infuse shetland or hackneys in the breed now?

I'm puzzled now. What exactly is a true miniature???? A small pony with no papers?? There are still American Shetlands that look more like horses in miniature than a good many "Miniature Horses" (as in those small equines which are registered as Minis) do! If they make the size, they should be in if they want to be (or rather if their owners want them to be

)since that was the intent when AMHR was formed as a division of the ASPC.

 

[Loren&Rocky]

I would love to have my gelding Rocky registered so I could show him in breed shows. I am not interesting in paying $500+ to do so though.

 

[bingo]

Actually they had their Shetland papers thrown away because it was at a time when Shetland sales were in a slump & those trying to promote their ponies as mini "horses" thought they would do better if they pretended their ponies weren't actually ponies. AMHR was started as a new way to market the smallest of the Shetlands. I guess it worked to some extent, because look how many people actually believe that Minis are horses and Shetlands are ponies, and horses are so superior to ponies. Ya, right, whatever, it just goes to show that a name does carry a lot of weight with some people!

.

You are correct not only did it work but it was truly one of the best marketing strategies I have ever seen. Like you said look how many truly believe that somehow miniature horses were dropped down here on earth by the mini fairy as a true and pure "breed".

 

[kaykay]

Yep I have to say it was marketing genius but on the flip side look how it made people feel about American Shetland ponies.

I can only answer for myself that I feel infusing the Shetland blood back in is correcting many of the faults that were bred in when all anyone cared about was that miniature horses be small.

 

[Leeana]

If i remember right AMHA is no longer hardshipping correct, or atleast wont be when the rule becomes active ?

Im starting to think AMHA is closing their books to keep the "shetlands" out

.

Anyway, I picked the last option but I lean more toward NO however.

 

[stormy]

Kay Kay most miniature Shetland breeders feel that way but those of us who have spent many years breeding for the perfect horse in miniature (and achieved it) feel pretty much tossed aside by the registry right now. I raised Shetlands and chose miniatures because of their temprament, trainability and horse like appearance, I am not wanting to go back to breeding ponies. Seems the best solution would have been to add a miniature division to the shetland registry and both breeds could have progressed down their unique development path. Now it seems we are throwing one away in favor of the other.

Close the registry, time to become a breed in truth.

 

[dannigirl]

I voted that it really doesn't matter to me either way. I have all registered stock and most of it is either AMHA/AMHR or ASPC/AMHR. The funny thing is that if I put some of my AMHA mares next to some of my ASPC mares, most of you would not be able to tell me which is which. I am constantly hearing "is that little mare registered pony also?" So I think that saying you don't like the look of the ponies as opposed to the AMHA minis is kinda funny to me because, many times, in my barn, you would not be able to tell me which is which--and I am VERY careful with my breeding program so nothing gets "mixed up"

 

[Leeana]

stormy Posted Today, 08:20 PM Kay Kay most miniature Shetland breeders feel that way but those of us who have spent many years breeding for the perfect horse in miniature (and achieved it) feel pretty much tossed aside by the registry right now. I raised Shetlands and chose miniatures because of their temprament, trainability and horse like appearance, I am not wanting to go back to breeding ponies. Seems the best solution would have been to add a miniature division to the shetland registry and both breeds could have progressed down their unique development path. Now it seems we are throwing one away in favor of the other.

Close the registry, time to become a breed in truth.

What if i take one of my ASPC under 38" horses and hide the ASPC paper behind my back and then present that horse to you or even hardship him/her ? Would you know it was a shetland ? The horse will still be the same horse if i toss the papers or not.

I have to take slight affense as i personally love the shetlands and they are one (along with the miniatures) of the most beautiful breeds.

I think we should leave it as we are now, allow the registry of ASPC into AMHR considering they are the "same" buy "different", if that makes sense ..cannot word it correct.

I can garentee you right now that AMHR will not close off the hardship of ASPC into AMHR, look who our registry is ran by ..amhr/aspc breeders

. It will be a cold day in your know what.

 

[stormy]

I am not saying one is better than the other here, I am saying the Miniature horse is a distinct type. The miniature Shetland is a distinct type. I worked very hard to develop correct miniature horses I am very proud of, I am sick and tired of being told we need to put the shetland back in to the Miniature horse as otherwise we are producing nothing but junk. That is complete CRAP!

Why do we need to lose one type to have the other, as I said before why not another height division within Shetland and let both breeds develop and grow?

And yes I am fully aware the registry is run by Pony people...pretty darn obvious. I just wonder way breeders do not feel Shetland is good enough but must go for the mini papers as well, you are hurting the shetland as a breed too.

 

[Leeana]

Tell me why the shetland does not fit into the AMHR standard of perfection ?

Do we not want our miniature to be refined? Long necked? Leggy ? Pretty topline ? high set neck ? Tiny tippy ears ? Pretty heads? Clean necks ? Pretty movers ? Yes, i can COMPLETELY see why one would resent have shetlands or shetand blood in their miniature horses

I can understand how you feel though, if you have spent years and years and years building a program, you should be proud of what you are producing

.

 

[bingo]

I never do understand when someone says I prefer the temperment of my miniatures over those Shetlands.

The facts are the facts and they are one and the same no matter what you choose to call them.

Closing the books completly doesn't change the fact that our minis have Shetland pedigrees and many not that far back. It won't make them any less "Shetland".

I wish the Miniature Horse was a distinct breed with a distinct look but not only is it not now but really never has been IMO

 

[stormy]

Again you are not hearing me. Is a Arabian horse a pretty mover, tippy ears, long neck, floating trot? Is a Saddlebred a pretty mover, tippy ears, long neck, floating trot? Should these registries be combined as they are both from the same root stock and can fit the same standard of perfection? Not, they are distictly differant types and breeds just as the Shetland and Miniature horse had become.

As I have said now three times, one is not better than the other but they are differant and should each have a place, one in the Shetland registry, the other in the Miniature horse registry. Close it! Don't lose the Miniature horse so the Shetland can have an extra set of papers!

I'm done.

Well almost done, lots of pony breeds fit the standard of perfection and could change the appearance of the breed, I was looking to breed down Paso Finos when the registry closed. They too would have fit the standard of perfection. Open all the way or close all the way or change the name to the Miniature Shetland Registry.

 

[Minimor]

I am saying the Miniature horse is a distinct type

And, pray tell, just what exactly does that distinct type look like???
Morgans have a distinct type (or at least they used to, now they often resemble Saddlebreds) Arabians have a type, Saddlebreds have a type, QH's have a type (or two or three)

so what is the obvious Miniature type that separates a Mini from a Shetland??? Or a Mini from any other pony breed???

 

[crponies]

What about this gorgeous stallion? stallion Which registry would you put him in? You might recognize him. Would you like to eliminate him from the AMHA/AMHR or the ASPC? Which breed do you think he is harming? Since miniatures always have been primarily Shetland in origin, how does it hurt them to allow more Shetland blood into the registry?

 

[kaykay]

Stormy I do think there are outstanding miniature horses with no close up Shetland Blood. No one said they are crap at all. But again if you dont like the aspc horses then dont buy one. Nothing wrong with that!! But that doesnt mean they shouldnt be allowed to show in the very registry that they started. I still just dont understand why you care if they show in AMHR as long as they meet the height requirement. There will always be people who do not want to cross Shetlands back on miniatures and thats fine too. Thats what makes it so fun is there is a horse for everyone

As for your analogy on Paso Finos. Paso's did not create the miniature horse! That is not where they came from. I think some people still do not want to admit that their miniature horse was bred down from a Shetland Pony

I still remember seeing an ad once that was proudly announcing their Buckeroo bred horses and in the same breath said "no shetland blood here!" Ummm they might want to take another look at those papers

 

[stormy]

I know I am beating a dead horse here so to speak but the american shetland is not just from shetland roots. As so many have stated previously there was a lot of behind the barn breeding with Welsh and other breeds as well as the accepted cross with Hackney. For many years the breeds were for the most part seperated and went differant directions.

I have also seen many differant pony breeds introduced into the mini as well including POA (No appy shetlands), arab, and trottingbred ponies. They are not the same anymore than the arab and the thoroughbred are the same.

If Miniature horses and shetlands are the same why can we not hardship Miniatures into the Shetland registry. (Because the registy is closed just as the Miniature registry should be)

As far is competing in the show ring I am still at a loss as to why the shetland breeders don't want to show as shetlands (are you ashamed of your breed?) were you have all the type divisions not allowed in AMHR. I would not mind competing against them on a level playing field, I do mind the predjudical way they are judged and again most importantly I do not want to see us lose a bred that has become so popular in favor of a breed that has, at least in this area (by 2007 census records), declined dramatically in popularity.

 

[kaykay]

If Miniature horses and shetlands are the same why can we not hardship Miniatures into the Shetland registry. (Because the registy is closed just as the Miniature registry should be)

The answer is because American Shetlands are a breed! They are not a height registry like the miniatures. As much as everyone wants it right now miniature horses are not a breed.

What so many do not understand is that there have been Shetland breeders breeding very small ponies for decades. ITS NOT NEW!! The winks ponies have always been known for small ponies (miniature size) Arenosa ponies are also known for this as evidenced by there being AMHA/ASPC/AMHR registered Arenosa ponies.

As far is competing in the show ring I am still at a loss as to why the shetland breeders don't want to show as shetlands (are you ashamed of your breed?) were you have all the type divisions not allowed in AMHR.

Im not ashamed of anything!! I show my horses where they will show the best. I think any breeder does the same thing. If I have an ASPC/AMHR horse that will show better in ASPC classes thats where I show it. If I think its better suited to AMHR classes thats where I show that horse. AT most shows I show in both ASPC classes and AMHR classes which makes it a lot more fun for me and my family.

And I dont understand your statement on judging?? That makes no sense to me?? And the decline was not because of ASPC/AMHR horses. We all saw it coming. Too many horses being bred, economy sliding down etc all led to that. The novelty wore off and the huge prices came down.

Please dont take offense I am truly just trying to understand your point of view (and others)