? on the dun color

[MindyLee]

With all the topics on the dun genes...

Dose a horse have to carry the dun gene if they have a dorsal stripe?

Im not 100% sure as I have heard yes and no.

I have 4 minis in the back yard with dorsal stripes. My sr stallion, My sr mare, and their 2 daughters who are full sisters by the stallion and mare.

My stallion has the barring but really hav'nt seen it on the mare. BUT for sure the daughters dont have barring. BUT do have faint dorsals.

Stallion is a smutty buckskin roan

Mare is a bay roan

and daughters are

buckskin roan & bay roan.

OR can the roan gene have the dorsal strip too?

AND one more ?,

Can a horse have the dun, roan, and smutty gene?

Thanks so much!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

No not every horse is considered a dun if he has a line. My liver chestnut has a distinct line that goes down his back everytime he's clipped and I can't remember if my silver bay mare that I had did or not, I believe she did. Its what you call counter shading.

http://colorgenetics.info/content/dun-or-countershading

 

[rabbitsfizz]

There is a difference between a "false Dorsal" and a dorsal stripe, but it is sometimes not possible to tell just by looking. If the horse does not have a dun parent it cannot be dun.

A buckskin sometimes has a dorsal stripe, but a dun always has one (it might be hidden if the horse is pinto, but it is there.)

A horse can have every single genetic of colour/pattern under the sun and a few not yet discovered. All in one horse.

 

[Riverrose28]

I have a yearling colt that is a dun, his dam is a dun, and his sire is a black based bay, in this picture you can see his strip and the bar over his withers, he also has a mask and barring on his legs, it's my understanding that a true dun must have at least two of thes charicteristics to be dun, but I'm no color expert.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

In Europe and the UK, as you probably mostly know, a lot of Buckskins are mislabelled "Dun"

This aside, any horse with face mask and leg barring would be called a "Zebra Dun" here, and Rabbit (who is Red Dun) has only the dorsal stripe, slightly darker head and legs that is all that is necessary to denote a dun, whatever the registries might say!

I have never owned a dun that has leg barring, they are really quite unusual in Europe.

The horses I have bred from Rabbit, which are true duns, have never had leg barring and he has had duns on all base colours.

Until I started going on American sites I had never really seen, not been aware of, duns with face masks, etc. OF course, you have to look no further than the Norwegian Fjord to see every single one of the markings in all their glory, I just had not noticed them!

 

[stormy]

I have alwasy wondered about dun also esp how it impacts bay......are these all duns??

Bay stallion, dorsal, shoulder bars

Grulla mare, dorsal, shoulder bars and zebra stripes!

What I call claybank??? Mask, dorsal, webbing on legs

 

[Riverrose28]

Stormy, all of yours appear to be dun with those markings.

To the op, I looked in one of my old books on color and it says that dun is cause by the dominant dilution, it also says that roan is a dominant color in itself. My reference material is very old, and minis are also not bred true to color as in reference to pintaloosa for example. Without color testing you will need an expert to answer all of your questions. Maybe somone will post some pictures of a mini that carries dun plus something else if it is even possable genetically speaking.

 

[horsenut50]

Now with Stormy's horses I see that your bay has countershading and not dun. The neck picture is shading also. The others are dun. At least one parent must be a dun to produce a dun baby. Buckskins with a dorsel are Dunskins. A buckskin is a black based horse with a creme gene and an agouti modifier. If that said buckskin has a true dorsel and stripes, it has a dun gene from one of it's parents that is outwardly dun.

 

[horsenut50]

http://dungenes.org/

 

[MindyLee]

Ok well then my foals are not dun carriers nor is my mare.

 

BUT...

 

My stallion has a bay roan sire (Komokos Little King Supreme) BUT Im not sure about what color his dam is. I can not locate a pic or info of her anywhere.

Her name is Little Kings Spring Bunny. Would anyone here know what color she is?

 

[bannerminis]

My mare Slaney (bred by rabbitsfizz) is out of a red dun mare and has a dorsal only visual in her summer coat. Her legs are a little darker but I think its sooty.

Her double dilute foal from this yr is I suspect Dun as he had a face mask and distinct dorsal which you could see in his mane.

Here is Slaney - Dunalino + possible sooty

And Buck (2011 foal)

Just getting up on his legs but its just to show the face mask

His dorsal (not a great pic)

 

[stormy]

So I guess my question is...if all three of the horses I posted are Dun, which I agree they are, they have all sired or produced dun, what determines how dun will express itself??

 

[shelia]

So I guess my question is...if all three of the horses I posted are Dun, which I agree they are, they have all sired or produced dun, what determines how dun will express itself??

If they only have one copy of the dun gene they will pass it on about 50% of the time. If they have 2 copies (one from each parent) they will pass it 100% of the time. Whether one copy or both it will look the same. The horses base color along with whatever other modifiers are present will determine what color you end up with.

They either show it or they don't have it. It does not hide. I don't know why the leg striping shows up clearer on some more than others.

 

[Quester]

First horse- not dun, bay with lots of counter-shading which is ALSO genetically passed down, why so many people are positive their horses are passing on dun when in reality they are passing on their genetics for counter-shade.

Second horse- hard with just those two photos but my instincts tell me smoky black, not grulla. It is VERY common for smoky blacks to have a lot of "dun" type marks including a dorsal which again, they can pass on genetically. But that horse just doesn't say dun to me.

Third horse - yes, true dun. Looks like a grulla with a possible cream or silver gene.

Have them tested, that is the best way to put your mind at ease, if your bay and black do carry dun then you might as well have it proven as it would make them a lot more rare than a plain bay or smoky black but my guess is the dun test would come back negative on those two.

As for the palomino posted, yes on dun. The foal also appears to carry dun, that is a very convincing dorsal note how it is running all the way down into the tail, it doesn't just stop at the end of the rump. It is very common for dunalino to have darker legs than normal, whether it is because of the sooty gene or dun is the question.

Hope this helps.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I do not think your bay is dun, it is possible the dun came form the mare. The pale horse looks as if it may also have cream, if this is not possible, it could be a Roan dun, or just what was termed a yellow dun, which would be bay base.