Newbies WAKE UP

[Songcatcher]

I think it's a shame that people are made to feel that they must justify their breeding program. Some people portray the attitude that they are the only ones who know anything and if you don't do things the way they say, you are all wrong.

I am all in favor of people being informed and caring for their animals properly. Everyone's situation is different.

 

[wingnut]

I work full time but I can't imagine how a person who creates 20 foals a year has the time to spend with each individual foal to love on it and make it feel special love and trust humans. I

I don't know about other breeders, but I have visited Marlene and Holly's farm. When we went out to the various fields where her lovelies were, I was surrounded by horses! The babies were the first to come check us out!! They pushed each other around to get their fair share of kisses and hugs and scratches. So, it can be done. Never say never

 

[Tab]

I think it's a shame that people are made to feel that they must justify their breeding program. Some people portray the attitude that they are the only ones who know anything and if you don't do things the way they say, you are all wrong.

It's just as Bill Cosby said, "A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice."

Many of those that got defensive really had no reason! Are you conscientious? If so, why would you be defensive? No one can make you feel anything without your consent. It wouldn't hurt us (and even less mares) if we all decided to breed half as much.

It's true to say we were all newbies at one time, and oldies still make big mistakes. Horses humble you. But now and never is the time to burst forth into breeding with no prior knowledge of horse ownership, conformation, expense and care just because there is a very, very minuscule possibility of "selling babies."

 

[Jean_B]

OK - I've kept my mouth shut on this topic....but can't any longer.

I fully understand some of those who posted in agreement with the original post.

But GOOD QUALITY miniatures are still selling...for EXCELLENT prices so to tell everyone not to breed rings with just a bit of a 'superior attitude'. The 'junk' horses (I have a much stronger term but since kids read this....) bring what they deserve (oh don't give me all that stuff about how they deserve to be loved....their so-called breeder made a stupid error by breeding junk to junk, and low and behold, they are shocked when they can't get more than a few dollars for the resulting junk). No it's not the fault of the horse they had a dumb owner, so hopefully it will find a good pet home and NEVER NEVER NEVER be part of a breeding program....producing more junk. Yes yes yes......there are no guarantees that you will produce a national champion by crossing two national champions, but the odds are much higher. Heck....there are no guarantees that two Rhodes Scholars won't produce the village idiot either! But if one does their research on bloodlines, looks at the CONSISTENCY of those lines over multiple generations, odds are higher for a good result.

So what is the definition of a good horse?

1. Good conformation, i.e., straight legs, neck set on correctly, good headset, good bite, strong topline, high tailset, long hip, etc etc etc

2. Paperwork TOTALLY in order...no "on application" BS....anyone who buys a horse on application because it's a good price, and then discovers that stud reports were not filed, etc etc etc....well, they sometimes get what they paid for....a grade horse - DUH!

3. Good pedigree with multiple generations of excellent producers and show results

4. Good disposition

5. Healthy

5. All care (vaccinations, farrier, worming, etc.) totally up to date, and RECORDS to back it up

OK - Flame away.

 

[Songcatcher]

It's just as Bill Cosby said, "A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice."

Many of those that got defensive really had no reason! Are you conscientious? If so, why would you be defensive? No one can make you feel anything without your consent. It wouldn't hurt us (and even less mares) if we all decided to breed half as much.

It's true to say we were all newbies at one time, and oldies still make big mistakes. Horses humble you. But now and never is the time to burst forth into breeding with no prior knowledge of horse ownership, conformation, expense and care just because there is a very, very minuscule possibility of "selling babies."

Tab, I don't know you personally and was not referring specifically to you, but a general comment. Since I don't know you, I decided to go to your website to get to know a little more about you. Very nice website. It appears to me we probably have some things in common and that you would quite likely be the type of person I would like to have for a neighbor.

I am not at all disagreeing with you on the general concept that there are too many horses being bred. I am not disagreeing that there are a lot of people breeding who have no idea what they are doing and who are producing inferior stock. (That goes for humans as well as horses, but that's another story.) I do think (and hope) that perhaps some comments on here have come across more harsh than they were intended. I agree that some who felt the need to defend their programs had no need to feel that intimidation, but they did. Yes, I am conscientious and I do not feel any need to defend my program. However, I am not as easily intimidated as some people are. That does not mean that I think I have always made the right choice in every case, but it was my choice and I can live with it.

In looking at your website, I see that you have bought some horses, you have sold some horses (I'm assuming that is what you mean by "Placed"), and you have bred some horses and produced some foals. This is a free country (so far) and you have a right to make the decisions to do that, just as others do. You had the opportunity to do that because there were others before you who bred and sold horses and others after you who bought horses. If people don't breed horses, there will soon be none to choose from. If only certain people are allowed to breed, who is to decide who should be allowed to? I do believe that people should exercise their freedom of choice wisely and think things through before jumping into something they know nothing about.

I often agree with Bill Cosby, but not on this one. The wise are the only ones who will listen to a word of advise. The stupid ones won't pay any attention anyway.

 

[frostedpineminis]

I would like to know what is classified as a "backyard" breeder? I get that people think that they are doing the right thing by breeding for themselves or only breeding 2 or 3 a year? If the market is so low, why even take the chance of breeding and producing so called "Junk", why not go out and buy exactly what you like! I think those people are being a little hypocritical. You cant guarantee where every horse is going to end up, you cant forsee moving, death, outgrowing them you just gotta give them the best start and hope everthing works out. You cant criticize people because some of there foals dont live a fairy tale. I think that for the most part there is a high percentage of minis regardless of conformation and pedigree and whatever else that go on to be just regular PETS and from what I see they are still a happy horse. Also for the most part I think people spending 1000 to 2000 dollars on a pet is a pretty good market, in what other market can you sell an animal for that. I agree that you cant really make money at them but I think for the most part people that own them, cherish them. You cant raise cats and dogs and tell me that they all live 15-20 years and are loved to the end, many more of them end up in shelters, euthanized and die of exposure because the run away or are abandoned.

Most people that agree that newbies and "backyard" breeders shouldnt breed, have mares and stallions and have had foals... sold older horses that they didnt want any more... you are the same people that say they find permanent forever homes for all the horse they sell, but maybe that is what people think of the horses they sell to you... that you are forever homes. Who says that the horses you are breeding are so good, people say that every horse has faults, what makes yours so important???

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

You go Jean! Love it!

 

[champsmom]

Wow. This topic has really ruffled some feathers. Everyone has an opinion and has a right to post thier opinions. I just think some people should remember the golden rule "do unto others as you would have done unto you" and by this I am mainly referring to the way people talk to each other. By the way, I understand that you mean low quality horse when you say "junk horses" but I have a hard time referring to anything God makes as "JUNK"

 

[Charlotte]

I have read as many of these posts as I can find time for and I feel the need to correct a misconception.

Yes, you CAN make money with miniature horses as a business. If you are willing to put your heart and soul into it and work hard at learning the things you need to know. If you are willing to spend the many hours per day it takes to run a successful 'business'. You CAN succeed and you CAN make money.

And doing those things doesn't mean you don't love every little four hooved creature on your farm.

So do your marketing research, plan your breeding program, learn all you can about equine husbandry and GO FOR IT!

Oh, and it might help your 'business' if you weren't seen on LB complaining about how terrible the market is. From where I sit the market is good.

Charlotte

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Had to comment without reading all the replies but I understand your message to this post but think about it did newbies cause this problem? No its been years and years of overbreeding. Not just the backyard breeders but the BIG NAME breeders as well. As some have said some of these big farms can have 50 foals every year but you also see them do anual sales every year. Yes they have quality horses but I guarantee all of them won't be show quality. So why is it fair to say this message to newbies but when they weren't the ones that caused this problem.

In fact IMO the new people that are coming into this business are getting smarter, they know what to buy and they need to be educated that breeding is not all what these minis can do and how great showing can be. We need more people out there showing and/or promoting these minis.

 

[kaykay]

Yes, you CAN make money with miniature horses as a business. If you are willing to put your heart and soul into it and work hard at learning the things you need to know. If you are willing to spend the many hours per day it takes to run a successful 'business'. You CAN succeed and you CAN make money.
And doing those things doesn't mean you don't love every little four hooved creature on your farm.

So do your marketing research, plan your breeding program, learn all you can about equine husbandry and GO FOR IT!

Oh, and it might help your 'business' if you weren't seen on LB complaining about how terrible the market is. From where I sit the market is good.

Charlotte

Thank you Charlotte for saying it so much better. That is pretty much what I was trying to say!

 

[Genie]

Thank you Charlotte for saying it so much better. That is pretty much what I was trying to say!

Here, here

 

[CharlesFamily]

I have read as many of these posts as I can find time for and I feel the need to correct a misconception.

Yes, you CAN make money with miniature horses as a business. If you are willing to put your heart and soul into it and work hard at learning the things you need to know. If you are willing to spend the many hours per day it takes to run a successful 'business'. You CAN succeed and you CAN make money.

And doing those things doesn't mean you don't love every little four hooved creature on your farm.

So do your marketing research, plan your breeding program, learn all you can about equine husbandry and GO FOR IT!

Oh, and it might help your 'business' if you weren't seen on LB complaining about how terrible the market is. From where I sit the market is good.

Charlotte

Charlotte - I totally agree! And I think THAT is the point exactly that people are trying to make! Again - I don't think the majority of the breeders on here should feel defensive - they are doing it right! They do not have to defend their program - they have invested time, money, heart, money, soul and money into their programs. (And I'm not debating that you have to spend 5 figures on a horse before you can breed them - we know there are many "diamonds in the rough" - but we also know that purchase price of a horse is the cheapest expense of all!)

I think I was very blessed growing up and coming from the "big horse" world. My 4-H advisor was a well-known and respected Paint Horse breeder. The stallion he stood was a homebred World Champion in Halter and Peformance that he had trained, shown and campaigned himself. He typically bred less than 5 mares a year and all of his foals were trained appropriate to their age and shown. Naively - I thought this is what EVERYONE who breeds did.

That is what frustrates me the most - apparently MANY people would answer the question, "What can you do with a mini?" by saying, "Breed them!" Because there are too many farms where that is ALL they do. The resulting foals are so wild you can't even get near them. IF you are going to breed, then I feel you need to be actively marketing your horses and that means DO SOMETHING with them. I don't care if it is AMHR/AMHA shows, local shows, 4-H, parades, pet expos, trail driving, walking them in town, therapy work - but running wild in a field and popping out more babies and NOT doing anything else and being so wild they have to be sedated for farrier/vet because those are the only times they are handled, IMO is NOT a job. You can flame me all you want, but this is how I see it.

And many might think my dog isn't in this fight because I don't breed. But I don't breed because I believe in "practice what you preach." I do NOT have the time or money that it takes to do it right. I live 30 minutes from Getitia's farm (the AMHR 2010 breeder of the year); I live an hour from Arlene Foulk and Kay, and many others. If I want a high-quality horse I have a bazillion options to choose from - and they are in a place to do it better than I could. And they have programs that I would totally support because they meet all of the criteria I expect in a breeder.

Stepping off my soapbox now!

Barbara

 

[SampleMM]

Responsibilty..............................The ability to respond.

We can choose to be part of the solution or we can turn a blind eye and continue to be part of the problem.

 

[LaVern]

"Oh, and it might help your 'business' if you weren't seen on LB complaining about how terrible the market is. From where I sit the market is good."

Charlotte

That is the best one I have ever seen on LB. The market is good here too, but I am cutting back because I am getting old and slow. I won't breed them if I can't do them justice.

 

[Allure Ranch]

Oh, and it might help your 'business' if you weren't seen on LB complaining about how terrible the market is. From where I sit the market is good.

Charlotte

Valid point; I agree wholeheartedly.... and I've been very fortunate myself from where I've been sitting that the market hasn't affected my sale ability either. I placed (38) horses over the last year and ALL of them went to wonderful homes that can provide for them LONG-TERM.

 

I'm not criticizing ANYONE for not wanting to breed.... However, please don't expect me to following suit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlotte]

Responsibilty..............................The ability to respond.
We can choose to be part of the solution or we can turn a blind eye and continue to be part of the problem.

EXACTLY SampleMM! Good post!

And what is the solution? Well a huge part of it is providing a use for the little horses that are out there. If they have a use then they will find homes!

If you've been watching closely AMHA is taking a big step in that direction with the advent of the Youth Performance Events (which can be held at someone's farm or a school yard or anyplace fenced and with a little room for parking a few trucks and trailers) and the Community Shows...half day shows which just need the same type of location.

These are AMHA pointed shows and can be held starting 2012 so now is the time to GET PLANNING! If there are no mini events in your area get on Cragi's List or FaceBook or something like that and find a few folks who would like to join you. Call AMHA and ask questions. Or email me and I will try to get the answers for you.

I have heard that there is work in progres on a 'how to' booklet for folks who haven't been involved with putting on any shows before.

The more we can do with our little horses the more good homes they will find!

Charlotte

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I hadn't heard that Charlotte, but that is wonderful. The Community shows and Youth Performance is a great idea. Yeah AMHA.

In all honesty, I do believe the majority of LB members are better educated as far as buying and breeding than the average. And if you're breeding with some sort of plan not just they have the equipment so lets go, that is a start right there.

I do believe every breeder that sells Minis for breeding should have some responsibility towards educating the 'newbies' on breeding too. Promote good practices, educate, geld and be conscientious about your breeding program whether its 1 or 50.

 

[Jean_B]

I have read as many of these posts as I can find time for and I feel the need to correct a misconception.

Yes, you CAN make money with miniature horses as a business. If you are willing to put your heart and soul into it and work hard at learning the things you need to know. If you are willing to spend the many hours per day it takes to run a successful 'business'. You CAN succeed and you CAN make money.

And doing those things doesn't mean you don't love every little four hooved creature on your farm.

So do your marketing research, plan your breeding program, learn all you can about equine husbandry and GO FOR IT!

Oh, and it might help your 'business' if you weren't seen on LB complaining about how terrible the market is. From where I sit the market is good.

Charlotte

EXCELLENT post! Over the years my horses paid many of my non-horse related bills, so now that I'm 'retired' from the business, I'm still treating sterile, arthritic old Vegas like a king because he EARNED it. And yes - those that came on here crying about how they could not move any horses....the sky is falling....etc.....those are places I didn't even bother to look at the horses they had available when I was in the market for something in particular.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Well, i just have to post one more time! Charlotte you are right on girl! The market looks pretty good from where i am sitting too! i have had very little problem selling my foals last year, and i have a waiting list for foals this year too! My mares get the best health care( much better health care than i do) They get fed before i do, thier hooves get manicured before my nails get done, most have hair cuts more regularly than me,( I do take a bath more often than they do!) the horses relax and get to loaf around the pasture all day, every day! Which i never seem to be able to have time to do. I know all thier personalitys, and and can pretty much tell you the sire and dam, age and disposition of all horses on my farm. But that being said, I DO NOT RUN A FREE LUNCH PROGRAM

I expect a mare to contibute to the house hold. I enjoy my horses and everything about them, but i do not consider them pets. I wanted a pet, so i went out and got a dog, the dog adores me. The horses just think of me as maintanace, house keeping, food server and scratching post. There is one more thing i would like to add, i cant think of anything more beautiful than life, especially new life, and seeing those little babies bouncing around in the fields beside thier grazing mothers seems to make all the sleepless nights on mare stare worth it!