New Reg?

[bevann]

I think the basic problem with measuring... is that you are measuring a LIVING ANIMAL. It can be tense, cold, clipped differently, standing funny, or have it's feet trimmed recently or long ago... and that will greatly affect it's height by a QUARTER OF AN INCH.

Very few breeds put SO MUCH emphasis on height to the nearest quarter of an inch. And people are ALWAYS going to gripe about those taller horses in their class and use that as an excuse as to why their horse didn't do as well.

I have never seen the big deal about height. There are AMAZING small horses and AMAZING tall horses in all aspects of competition. I think some of those 32" driving horses can beat the pants off of some 38" driving horses... horses are highly individual, and so is the competitive ring.

I honestly don't think there is some "magic, fair way" of measuring. I think the Stewards do a good job, and it's just not a big deal to me. Stewards are not Bad People. I think it's unfair that they always have such a bad rap.

Andrea

I like the idea of the wicket like some dog breeds use.I would also like to suggest that for the AMHA&AMHR national shows an outside company be used for measuring.The persons measuring would be trained by someone in the registries who has experience measuring, but will not be showing at that show or anytime in the future calendar year. The identity of the measuring person will not be known before the show.there will also be 2 witnesses who know what is going on.This should cleanup some of the problems.

 

[HGFarm]

Well, on occasion, I have seen trainers and owners flat BLOW UP at the poor people doing the measuring- like in their face, red down to their collar and spit flying, when they were having trouble getting a horse measured in. They cause such a scene, that the next time, the measuring folks usually just do it and shut up, and they dont want to deal with the raving lunatics on the end of the leadrope.

How about those folks?

 

[bfogg]

I would like to see the raving spitting lunatics thrown off the grounds for the remainder of the show for abusing anyone in doing their jobs.

No one should have to take that abuse (and i know it happens) or any ones crap for doing their job correctly.

About the time someones whole show string is not able to show because of the owners/trainers actions you would see a lot of people who suddenly remember the manners their mother taught them!

Again it is a tension ridden business and people are under the gun to suceed with their horses.

But I feel that if everybody knew that everyone else would be held to no cheating, it would be a huge relief and it would take a lot of pressure off a lot of people????

they would be able to say rightfully so that i can't show that horse in that class because it is not going to measure in.

No pressure no wqrries about losing the client and I still believe most people want to play fair.

Bonnie

 

[HGFarm]

Well said Bonnie and I COMPLETELY agree!!!! And yes, I would like to see them excused for unsportsmanlike conduct. My granddaughter will be showing for her first year in 2007, very much a beginner, and that behavior is not only embarrassing to me and others, but I hope she never is present when it happens. :no:

 

[Boinky]

unfortunatly there will always probably be rule breakers that figure out a way around it..but i think that, as someone else mentioned, bring in an independent outside group that does not have any stake in the miniature horse industry (showing, breeding or otherwise..just someone that will measure fairly) or institution to do the measuring, teach them how to do it, and maybe even have a police officer to keep the peace for the first show year... they can immediately file charges if need be. Also if a person gets nasty, the registry should prohibit those people/person from showing in that show with a diciplinary action that if it's done again they will be expelled from the registry and all competitions for X amount of time. MAKE IT HURT for those that are putting pressure of physical or verbal abuse and/or cheating/bending the rules in some way. As far as i can tell there is no real diciplinary action taken for those that verbally assult those stewards for doing their job the right way... Also if it were an independent party doing the measuring... there could never really be any reprocussion done to that person in the show aspect of it... where if a steward is a AMHA/AMHR horse owner and show's at other shows, the peeved off person can figure out ways to make reprocussions either by trying to ostrecize that person from the mini community in some way.

 

[spazkat]

but i think that, as someone else mentioned, bring in an independent outside group that does not have any stake in the miniature horse industry (showing, breeding or otherwise..just someone that will measure fairly) or institution to do the measuring, teach them how to do it, and maybe even have a police officer to keep the peace for the first show year... they can immediately file charges if need be. Also if a person gets nasty, the registry should prohibit those people/person from showing in that show with a diciplinary action that if it's done again they will be expelled from the registry and all competitions for X amount of time. MAKE IT HURT for those that are putting pressure of physical or verbal abuse and/or cheating/bending the rules in some way. As far as i can tell there is no real diciplinary action taken for those that verbally assult those stewards for doing their job the right way... Also if it were an independent party doing the measuring... there could never really be any reprocussion done to that person in the show aspect of it... where if a steward is a AMHA/AMHR horse owner and show's at other shows, the peeved off person can figure out ways to make reprocussions either by trying to ostrecize that person from the mini community in some way.

What you just described is pretty much the procedure for USAE (USEF?) stewards. Unfortunately, I doubt many people within either reqistry (AMHA / AMHR) would have much interest in becoming part of it. (The Shetlands already are, but most if not all Shetland shows are run accouring to ASPC standards to avoid the fees.) There would be several probelms, mostly associated with additional fees, but also including the fact that to the USAE if its under 14.2 its a pony, and all measurements are done at the withers.

 

[PaintedPromiseRanch]

whew reading all this makes me glad i don't show! i have NEVER been able to measure my horses and get it to come out the same as it says on their papers (yes adult papers). and i don't mean a little discrepancy, i mean like 4 inches different! so number one i don't have a clue how to measure i am sure, and number 2 they have breeding records and i KNOW they are minis even if the numbers i get don't say so

i agree with the poster who said these are amazing little animals!! i

: my girls and i don't care what the stick says, they have their papers even if they are "over". in fact the only TINY girl i have doesn't even have any papers thanks to an irresponsible breeder.

i probably have no right to say it since i don't show but i also agree that anyone who mistreats someone working a show should be disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct. that should be a basic rule of ANY type of competition!

 

[Boinky]

I don't see why we'd have to go to USEF at all.. ifthe AMHA/AMHR wouldjust hire an independent measurer (and i can't imagine it would cost THATmuch to just hire people that have nothing to do with the mini industry) and enact and enforce strict rules for those that verbally abuse, harrasse or threaten anyone measuring horses.. period

 

[disneyhorse]

I don't see where an "independent measurer" would be any better than a Steward? What is wrong with Stewards? The Stewards are qualified by our registries to ensure that they know the rules and know what they are doing. They are the experts. They are only human, just as an "independent measurer" would be.

If you don't like a particular Steward, then you should ask your show manager to hire a different one, or file a claim with the registry regarding their conduct.

Perhaps there should be a way the registries could evaluate their Stewards better?

I don't think scrapping the Stewards is a solution that will provide better results.

Andrea

This is the age of technology, too. Perhaps the "witness" to the Steward could take video of the horses being measured for registry review. Being caught on video (parking horses out too much or being inappropriate to the poor Steward) might deter some people?

 

[spazkat]

I don't see where an "independent measurer" would be any better than a Steward? What is wrong with Stewards? The Stewards are qualified by our registries to ensure that they know the rules and know what they are doing. They are the experts. They are only human, just as an "independent measurer" would be.

If you don't like a particular Steward, then you should ask your show manager to hire a different one, or file a claim with the registry regarding their conduct.

Maybe a move to bring mini measurement process more in line with the USEF process would be an option. For their measurements:

1) Measurements must be performed by a steward with the official competition veterinarian

in attendance, both of whom shall sign the measurement form. Written reports of every measurement or attempt to measure must be sent to the Federation’s Lexington, KY office together with the Steward’s Report, or the steward will be subject to charges and penalties. Stewards who perform measurements and other competition officials present who measure animals at a competition are responsible for their true measurement and must use the Federation approved measurement stick (See HP130). The names of the measuring stewards will be printed on the measurement card and they and other measuring officials will be subject to charges of rule violations for hearing and determination if it is subsequently determined that a measurement is incorrect.

2) Federation officials are not to perform “courtesyâ€, “trialâ€, or repeat measurements. Once a pony is presented for measurement, the owner/agent must accept the resulting measurement.

3) protests: If the protest measurement exceeds the height limit for the section in which the animal was shown the owner forfeits entry fees and winnings for the entire competition and the animal is barred from competing for the balance of the competition year. All points accumulated for Horse of the Year Awards are nullified. The competition steward will instruct the protestor and the protestee that any inappropriate behavior and/or communication between parties will result in charges being filed against those parties. This is not limited to those parties directly involved in the protest. Charges may be filed against any individuals at the discretion of the competition steward.

Im curious where we would find any "independent measurers" if not through the USEF though... Most other shows that require an official measurement use them, and as far as I know there arent really any other training programs or licensing services for that type of thing.

 

[Charlotte]

I'm too sleepy to read everyones posts, but I can see there are some really good ones on here regarding measuring....my BIG BUGABOO!

Our (A & R) measuring problems don't really have anything, or at least not much, to do with the measuring device used or where on the horse it is supposed to be measured. The problems have to do with the rules not being followed...period. We have good rules in place for measuring. We have good rules in place for misconduct at shows. The rules just are not being followed or enforced.

basic problem with measuring... is that you are measuring a LIVING ANIMAL. It can be tense, cold, clipped differently, standing funny, or have it's feet trimmed recently or long ago... and that will greatly affect it's height by a QUARTER OF AN INCH.

This is true...1/4" one way or the other, or even 1/2" is possible, but 1 1/2" or 2" ?????? If you go to shows and watch you will know what I'm talking about. When I lead a 30" horse in a class for 30" and Under and he is the SMALLEST one out there?????? Does someone think I won't notice? Do they think I'm that dumb?

I honestly just don't understand how anyone can be proud of a win when it is won by cheating. :no:

Charlotte

 

[Boinky]

I"m not at all saying dump stewards..but what i SEE is that most of the stewards have or show horses themselves. they have personal intrest in mini's which if they got pressure from other mini owners to bend the rules it could make or break them. If you had someone from say another registry not vested in mini's... which i'm sure there are people out there that would be happy to do a job like that for another breed entirely ..heck i'd do it for another breed if i had the opportunity. I just think there would be less pressure to cave to the demands of your peers if you were not personally vested in owning and showing miniatures and getting pressure from more "prestigious" individuals to do them "favors"..... i'm not saying to get rid of them at all..i just think maybe that certain individuals are driven to maybe bend the rules for those "higher up" folks... Now i don't know this for sure..but i could see from a personal standpoint if i felt that it could seriously HURT me to do the right thing how i might be inclined to bend the rules a little to help keep afloat in the community!