Need some advice on G.Pyr. puppy

[Just Us N Texas]

Jerry and I both are madly in love with our Bandit. As some of you may remember, he was a stray, and we have had him 4-5 weeks. He has been neutered, and has had rabies shots, and is due his second round of puppy shots tomorrow. Even though he was only about 3-4 months old when he came, I have been very surprised by his actions. He sits in the yearling field, and watches them for awhile, if all seems well, he goes on to his other "charges". He goes by the goat pen and checks them out, goes into the chicken pen and checks them out, then goes to the barn and sits with those. After awhile, he comes into the house and is very happy to visit and play with us. He is the sweetest little man you have ever seen. My problem with him is he doesn't come when called unless it pleases him at that time. He may just be out in the yard, or out on the farm, or in the barn. He will look up, and go on with what he is doing. We are giving him treats and lots of pats and good boy when he does come, but the not coming is driving me batty! He stays out at nights, comes in when Jerry leaves for work, and stays in till the school bus runs every morning. He is friendly, and I am afraid he will go with just anyone. That I know will probably stop as he gets older. I have put him in a crate in the house when I go somewhere during the day, just so he won't follow some one to the road, or down the road. He does not like the crate! Usually I send him to the girls' house to visit with them and their dogs when I go away.

I've heard and read that they are somewhat independent and stubborn, so is this a part of the problem, or am I not training him to come correctly. What are your thoughts? His main job here is just to be a pet, and watching over the livestock is just a bonus to us. He is such a darling, but I do need him to come when called! Moms do worry you know!

 

[MountainMeadows]

Great Pyr's are wonderful dogs and it sound like you have a super livestock guardian in the making. They definately have a mind of their own! I haven't had much luck with "training" my dog in the traditional sense, but he is very appropriate and rarely does anything really wrong - I am not so sure that these dogs are the kind of dogs that you should expect to be "obdient" as in the more typical family type of dog.

If you don't have a completely fenced property, you will need to do so - Pyr's will roam, & roam & roam - ever expanding their territory. It is well worth the investment to keep them home.

Good luck with Bandit!

Stacy

 

[Reijel's Mom]

I think general obediance training would probably help - also leash training on a long training leash, so you can enforce the command "come".

You're doing great with the postive reinforcement everytime he does come - it's so upsetting when I see my neighbors tell their dog/dogs to come - sometimes the dog won't right away but does eventually - and then they scold/punish the dog when it DOES come back - HELLO. . .!

 

[mininik]

Never give the Come cue unless you can enforce it, and NEVER scold your dog for not responding. Say your dog's name, then "Come" only once, clearly, in a happy way. It is necessary to practice the name game and fast recalls in a smaller, controlled environments before expecting your dog to understand the cue from longer distances. Remember that dogs do not generalize, so just because he'll come to you calling in the kitchen does not mean he'll come from the back forty unless you (eventually) practice it. If you have used up "Come" by too many repititions without responses, ditch it and retrain correctly with "Here!" You have to build up enough deposits (rewards) associated with coming to you in your dog's positive reinforcement bank to make him WANT to come to you when called. This takes time. Eventually you can train over longer distances, and then you can train with distractions. I HIGHLY recommend you purchase this cheap, but very informative booklet on the subject: http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=dtb813

I'd also suggest entering your pup in a basic Obedience class ASAP. Go for a place that uses positive reinforcement. Just because your pup is a LGD does not mean he can't or shouldn't know the basics. This will help as he reaches social maturity, even if he matures into one of those saintly beasties who behaves "just because."

Hey, here's a Great Pyr practicing Agility:

 

[Ashley]

Thats a Gp thing. My aunt had 2. The oldest passed away at almost 16 years old. To the day she died she never came when called. She would greet you when you went outside then go off to do her job. THe younger one is probably 5 or 6 now, same thing.

I dont feel this is a dog that needs formal training if they are had for there job. IF they are ment to be a family pet then maybe.

My aunts also are not fenced in, the only time they leave the yard is to go down and poop by the road.

 

[txshell]

You have gotten some really good advice here and I also feel you would do well to take him to classes. I do want to add also, do not call him to come to do something unpleasant at this point, ie: putting in the crate. If you feel you have taught him by this point that the command "come" means maybe I will, maybe I won't, then change the command (could be anything like "here"). Teach this like a new command starting from very short distances with reinforcement.

Good Luck to you.

 

[mininik]

I believe any dog can benefit by training, especially puppies, as not all dogs mature to be well behaved without it. It's unfair to expect every puppy to mature into a dog who just "knows" what is expected of it. Just like us, dogs need to learn to learn. Learning is excellent mental stimulation and in my opinion is every bit as important as physical exercise. While it's true that many dogs get by just doing their job (be it as a lap warmer or livestock guardian, etc.) and will never "need" to know anything else, training can be a fun, life enrichment exercise for them. While breed does play a role in how much a handler might have to work at motivating a dog or proofing behaviors, any healthy dog is capable of having fun learning during training at any age. For more information on working with "impossible" breeds, check out this book: http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB919

 

[capall beag]

I am sorry but I laughed when I read this!

We have a delightful G . Pyr. She is wonderful and so sweet but she drives me crazy because she NEVER comes when called.........completely ignores me actually.

I have owned many breeds of dogs and she is by far the most disobedient BUT she is wonderful around the barnyard animals and my other dogs, and of course the kids.

I can no longer ever leave her loose out front, because she is likely to head into the woods and come back whenever it suits her.

The other thing is she often is only 30 feet away but she blends with the snow and I can't see her!

Drives me mad but I do love her.

I think this is a common trait of G.Pyr.

 

[Lisa Strass]

I don't have any advice... We have a 5 month old Great Pyr that doesn't come very well either! She is a really sweet dog, and good with the livestock, but coming when called is only a semi-successful thing.

I've never had trouble teaching a dog this before, and I know the breed is very independent, so I guess all I can say is I understand where you're coming from!

 

[mininik]

It's a common trait of certain breeds to be more independant, but these comments are instilling it further into these dogs who "won't come":

"My problem with him is he doesn't come when called unless it pleases him at that time. He may just be out in the yard, or out on the farm, or in the barn. He will look up, and go on with what he is doing."

"To the day she died she never came when called."

"She is wonderful and so sweet but she drives me crazy because she NEVER comes when called.........completely ignores me actually."

"She is a really sweet dog, and good with the livestock, but coming when called is only a semi-successful thing."

When you say Come and don't go to your dog and HAPPILY get them to respond from a shorter distance, or don't frequently reinforce your dog when they do Come, you are reinforcing that Come means nothing. Again, don't call your dog to you unless you can positively reinforce it and until you have practiced and proofed the recall, don't do it from great distances where there are multitudes of distractions. NO dogs just "know" to come when called, although some may be quicker to come to you if nothing else is more interesting at the time. If a dog doesn't believe there is some incentive waiting for them that is greater than doing whatever it is already doing when they hear you say "Come," they aren't going to come. Over use of the cue will turn it into white noise chatter and the cue will be ignored altogether. ("Sassy. Sassy! Come. Come, come! Come here! NO, don't sniff the bushes. Why won't you come? I said come now, you brat. Come!")

There are plenty of dogs who won't respond to "Come," but who will quickly dash to their owners in response to "Treats!" The dogs don't know what the words mean, but one word has consistently been reinforced in a positive way with something the dog really wants, while the other has not. You could say "Banana" or "Money" or whatever you like, so long as you work on getting the dog to understand that when you say it you're going to give them something awesome. You then practice that and add distance and distractions over time. There are many games to play to get your dog interested in coming to you after calling it, from running away from the dog in playful fashion to making a scene like you have just the most wonderful thing in your possession ever to playing with restrained recalls. The booklet I mentioned earlier (Really Reliable Recalls) will help you play these successfully.

 

[anoki]

I don't have a Pyr, but just wanted to say I ditto what mininik says.

Moxie is proof.....I didn't put her in classes until she was 4 1/2 months old....sometimes she comes to 'come' (especially if we're training), but if she's got something else more interesting....she comes to 'treats', because I overused the command 'come' before I had her in classes. 'Treats' she knows she's going to get something (not that she didn't for 'come', because when she would come, I would give her a treat...I just overused that command when she didn't have any interest in coming).

I have trained the puppies completely differently from how I trained Moxie. I say 'Jane/Delilah/Lainey come....hurry, hurry, hurry....puppy, puppy, puppy' in a very excited voice and I shuffle my feet, smack my legs, anything trying to get their attention....if they are 'out of distance', I get closer to them, BUT only say hurry, hurry, hurry, or whatever I need to do to get them to come without using the command again (and without saying their name again). And when they do come, they get treats. My biggest problem is I have 3 puppies I am trying to train, and they do not do well on leash yet (though they are getting there), so I can't have long leashes on them at all times. I did use that with Moxie when I was retraining her, and it works wonderfully! With the 3 puppies, I try to set aside certain 'training' times, so that I can reinforce what I am really wanting from close range. Not the best method, but having 3 puppies at the same time probably isn't the best for training anyway.....

Don't get me wrong, I still catch myself saying 'come' that second time, but I try my hardest NOT to do it. The puppies come when they are called about 90% of the time already, only just within the back yard...I know if they were romping through the field, they would never come back...they just aren't there yet in their training, but I don't expect them to be either.

But I do agree that with your Pyr, if you want him to come, make sure you only use the command once (whatever command you want, and I also agree if you have overused 'come', make it a different word), and if you can't reinforce it by having a long line on him to 'make' him come, I wouldn't ask him to come....because if he ignores you, there is no way of showing him what you are trying to get him to do.

Just because 'that's the way the breed is' doesn't mean that's the way the breed HAS to be. Any breed can be trained, some just take more time (and patience) than others.

~kathryn

 

[Magic]

I have an Anatolian Shepherd (another LGD breed) and I had heard the same things about the LGD's-- they aren't obedient, too independent to train. Well, it drives me crazy if a dog doesn't come when I want it to, so I worked with her. She RUNS to me when I call her, and every time she does, I act like she is the best dog there ever was, petting her and praising her. It's been a HUGE advantage to have her come when called, on those rare instances that someone leaves a gate open and she's off to check out the miles of unfenced land around us.

Start by training in a smaller, enclosed area, or with a long lead. Don't try wide open spaces until you KNOW your dog will come to you, otherwise you are just setting yourself up for failure. Good luck!

 

[mininik]

That's awesome, Magic.

Drag leashes can definitely help, but it's important not to leave one on if your dog may become hung up something while unattended. Magic's post also brings up another important aspect in that some dogs don't need food rewards for motivation and praise is enough, while others prefer short games of fetch or tug. The key is to find out what really motivates your dog and use it to your advantage. Switching the rewards periodically with high and low value rewards can keep your dog guessing. "Hm. My hooman called and she sounds happy... I might get some hugs, my favorite toy, some Cheerios, or I might even get a chicken wing! Better go see what's up!"

 

[Black Magic]

Our dear neighbor and friend had a G py and they had the same problem. They bred goats and Chloe was always in the middle of the goats. They came to the conclusion that Chloe didn't feel comfortable leaving her charges, they had become her family. Finally, they bred Chloe and then they couldn't get her out of the house. Her puppies took over Chloe's job.

My answer.. get another puppy! .. and of course... the previous advice on the training is right on.

God Bless,

Lynn W

 

[capall beag]

I have to disagree with what some have said.

It is not bad behaviour here IMO it is that their focus is elsewhere.

I have 5 dogs, if my jrt's are running after a squirrel I never say come(bad timing) BUT, in general, when I call them to me I expect them to listen.

They have a loyalty to me, as does my lab(incredible loyalty there!)

Lily(our Pyr) is different. She is not overly bonded to people she is bonded to the property and to the animals. Which is what she is bred to do and how to behave.

Bit like being surpirsed that your lab naturally retreives, or your collie is herding.

Her focus is to patrol the perimeter and monitor the property NOT to follow me the "human".

This is what sets LGD's apart.

I don't even bother saying come to Lily. When she is in her patrol mode she is NOT coming back, not even looking back.

However, she has many qualities the other dogs don't because of her breed.

Can you train him to listen better, Yes but if he is a LGD his 'purpose' is to be focused on patrolling and guarding livestock not listening to you.

I would say you have a good LGD though.

 

[outlawridge]

Congratulations on your pup! Sounds like he is a natural LGD. You are fortunate! My friend has two Great Pyr, Mareema, Akbash mix LGDs which have chosen my minis to guard instead of her sheep. Personally, I love that and they have been wonderful. However, what you describe can be quite typical of good LGDs. This is because their job, and instinct, is to think independantly. If they feel they should be checking out something else, or watching guard over, or inspecting what they feel is part of their territory, instead of coming when you call, they will do that first. Yes, you can really work on training for this as it is very important, but it can be difficult. Set him up for success at first, and don't call him if you think your command will be ingored, during this training time. Another thing to possibly expect, is LGDs gradually increase their patrol area. This is natural for them and may take in several miles. It all depends on the dog and how "good" they are at their job.

 

[Reijel's Mom]

Sounds like this would be a great time for an experiment! Maybe for a month work with that pup on "come" regularly, continue with the positive reinforcement, and never do it when you can't enforce it (have a long training lead on him) and see what happens.

Might be fun to see what your guy can learn and it certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

[Marty]

It seems that Bandit is related to AMY that blasted nutty puppy of mine. (sigh).....the mere mention of her name wears me out. hehe..

She did the same thing, completely ignored the come command, and was roaming but that didn't last very long. I trusted her too much way too young.

Ok two things first straight up. Bandit is still VERY new and very much a puppy. That has a lot to do with it. They are so darn curious.

You have already let Bandit loose too much without you so reel him back in for boot camp.You gave him the run of the place without him being trained. no no! Don't trust him yet. He needs organized daily work training just like you would a horse. Go through the commands at least twice a day with him in a very quiet setting where his mind is on you and nothing else. He feels he is on his own out there and boss but still needs to be reminded of who is the boss of him.

He is also going to be very friendly and willing to go with just anyone as long as you keep socializing him.

If you want him to become territorial and protective of you and your family, you would have to limit visits with other people that don't live in your house and by doing that, you can really open up a can of worms.

 

[Reijel's Mom]

He is also going to be very friendly and willing to go with just anyone as long as you keep socializing him.

If you want him to become territorial and protective of you and your family, you would have to limit visits with other people that don't live in your house and by doing that, you can really open up a can of worms.

Very good point that hadn't been addressed yet!

 

[Dona]

As others have already mentioned.....that is definitely a Pyr trait!

That being said....it's not a bad trait, as again, someone has already mentioned, they are bred to FOCUS on their job...not to come at your whim. They are bred to think for themselves & ignore any type of directions to do otherwise.

Our Pyr, Panda, was exactly the same way....if I called him, he would just look my way, then ignore me. Sometimes, IF he felt like it, and he wasn't in the middle of his "rounds"....he might come. But the majority of the time, my "calling him" was nothing more than a nuiscance to him.

I solved the problem by using his favorite treats....Pig Ears! All I have to do is yell "Pig Ears"...and he comes running so fast he stumbles over himself!

Of course, you must ALWAYS have that treat available for them every time they come...or they will eventually not believe you, and stop coming.