Need help with driving geldings bit

[mgranch]

So, for the longest time I kept thinking I was putting Joe's bit on wrong and getting the bit under his tongue. This weekend I was sitting in my cart waiting for my husband to get in his cart and Joe was messing with his bit. I got out and sat on the ground and opened his mouth and watched what he had going on. He was putting his tongue over then under his bit non stop. I checked that the bit was tight enough in his mouth and everything was good he just can pull his tongue back so far he can get it on either side of the bit!! The bit is a mullen mouth style so what else would prevent him from doing this tongue trick??

Thanks!!

Gina

 

[txminipinto]

First, please don't sit on the ground in front of a horse hooked to a cart. It's not safe no matter how well you know the horse or how well the horse is trained. It's an accident waiting to happen. Second, your bit may be sitting too low in the horse's mouth making it possible for him to slip his tongue over the bit. OR....you just have a very talented horse. A string tied around the middle of the bit, run through both sides of the mouth, over the forehead, and tied to the poll of the bridle can help keep the bit up to prevent the tongue from slipping over.

 

[JourneysEnd]

As Carin says, make sure the bit is fitted properly.

If he still does it you can use a higher ported bit which will stop him. Some people will tie the tongue while working the horse. This can help if it's a "new" habit. I have an older (14) horse with this habit and he does fine with a high ported mullen mouth bit.

Tammy at http://www.rtinyfarm.com/contact.html has kelly bits which work just like the mylar at 1/4 the price. She can set you up.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The bootlace thing works but please be careful with it and introduce it slowly, if he has got into a habit of doing this suddenly preventing him from doing it might cause him to panic.

There can also be many causes, as with anything "mouth related" I would, first and foremost, have a dentist check him out, and whilst he is in there get him to accurately measure the horses mouth and tell you what sort of size and type of bit would be best for him!!

 

[mgranch]

Thanks Everyone!! I didn't set in front of Joe I sat beside him. I should have been more clear on that!! Does anyone have a pic of a bit they have used to correct this problem??

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Have you tried him in a plain jointed bit??

 

[mgranch]

Have you tried him in a plain jointed bit??

Like just a half cheek snaffle??

 

[Al B]

I used the EPB-43 HP to correct the problem on a mare.

Myler

Make sure it's high enough and the Cavesson is snug (not tight).

 

[mgranch]

I used the EPB-43 HP to correct the problem on a mare.
Myler

Make sure it's high enough and the Cavesson is snug (not tight).

Thanks!! That is what I was thinking might help!!I will check the cavesson too!!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Isn't it ANNOYING when they start doing this?!

...kelly bits which work just like the mylar at 1/4 the price.

I hate to say it but I've had the Kelly bits and my Myler in my hand at the same time and they aren't remotely similar past the outer appearance.

The Kelly bits are probably better than a lot of the junk out there and some of the models would be fine to use but the so-called "mullen mouth" for instance has none of the sensitivity of the Myler mullen mouth. My Myler spins and swivels smoothly when you're picking up one rein but immediately forms a solid bar when you pick up both reins. The Kelly equivalent just felt...dead. No movement, no action, no nothing. And they're bulkier than the Mylers too and the ones I saw were not curved for tongue relief.

I HATE the idea of spending $150 for a bit and probably wouldn't bother with a big horse since there are so many other (cheaper) options for them, but for our little guys I'm afraid Mylers are the only ones that I've found that really have the quality and features some horses need. That said, a fancy bit isn't necessary to resolve this particular issue. Not that it wouldn't work, it just isn't 100% necessary! *LOL* Edited to add: I'm not saying a high port bit wouldn't solve the problem, I just didn't want to you to feel pressured to buy a new bit if it wasn't in your budget.

The first thing I'd do is try raising the existing bit in his mouth and see what he does with it. If that isn't effective then you can start trying some of the other suggestions one at a time and see what works for your particular horse. Could you post a picture of the bit on the bridle and then the bit in his mouth so we can see how it's positioned? Don't forget to also give him some supervised bridle time in his stall with a good pile of hay so he has an opportunity to learn to work around that bit and forget it's there.

Leia

 

[JourneysEnd]

Al, I even thought about it when typing - MylEr, MylEr.

Leia, sounds great. Buy me the real thing for Christmas. Just not in my budget.

I have two Mylers here I'm not using, different horses, hate to spend another $150 when the Kelly's working.

 

[gatorbait4sure]

When I first noticed the Kelly's I picked two up and found burrs on both mouthpieces.........I haven't looked at them since!

I'm Mylar all the way!

dru

 

[normajeanbaker]

I am also not a fan of Kelly bits. I picked one up, thinking it would work sort of like a Myler. The bit fell apart in my horses mouth while I was long lining her and sliced the corners of her mouth open in the process of it falling apart. I have never purchased another Kelly bit since. And then after seeing a Myler bit, there is NO comparing the 2 bits. My Kelly bit had only been used 3 times prior to it falling apart. I was not impressed! If your caveson is tight, and your bit is properly adjusted and he's still getting his tongue over the bit, tying his tongue for awhile may work in having him forget about doing it. We used to tie our Saddlebreds tongues when we had this issue, but I've never had a Mini with this problem. If you are unsure how to tie a tongue, you may want to have someone in your area who knows how to do it show you, as you can easily tie it too tight if you arent careful.

You may want to play aorund with different bits. I have a mare here who can get her tongue over a plain jointed snaffle. However, in the french link bit, she doesnt even attempt it. So, by leaving her in the french link, it solved the problem.

~Jen~

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Er...no, I was NOT suggesting tying his tongue, not at all, I was suggesting putting a lace round the BIT, just to clear that up!!

The cavesson is not for anything but show, if you wish to start using it to keep a horses mouth shut please purchase the correct noseband, which is a drop or a ....whatever the fashionable term for the plain noseband with the strap on the front that goes down round the nose below the bit...names keep changing, I can't keep up!!

An ordinary cavesson noseband is not designed to hold the mouth shut is merely an ornament, and could well rub the jaw if used for this purpose.

If you look at the wide range of nosebands available for big horses you will see that Mini Tack is lagging sadly behind, and thsi can only be because people are not knowledgeable enough to ask for them.

Look at how quickly the freedom collars became available for Minis once they were requested.

These "Tack People" are more than open to suggestion, they actively encourage input, so give it to them, write/e-mail a few with your problem and see what response you get.

If there is a problem with horses opening their mouths on bits (there should not be, if they are correctly mouthed, bitted and driven, but there can be) then get the correct tack to sort the problem, please, PLEASE do not just use what is available.

This has been a generic, PSB and is NOT aimed at any individual!!!

 

[Kathy2m]

The cavesson is not for anything but show, if you wish to start using it to keep a horses mouth shut please purchase the correct noseband, which is a drop or a ....whatever the fashionable term for the plain noseband with the strap on the front that goes down round the nose below the bit...names keep changing, I can't keep up!!

Jane, I believe the fashionable term is a Flash or a hinge noseband. Are they legal for ADS shows? Kathy

 

[MiLo Minis]

Think about it for a minute. If a horse is getting his tongue over the bit it is because he is not comfortable with the bit. It can, over time, become habit if left too long before correcting but it never starts out that way. The LAST thing you should resort to is something like tying his tongue (which is illegal in most cases anyway) or tightening the cavesson possibly forcing him to endure the pain. First, get his teeth checked to be sure nothing is causing him pain that way. Then try lifting the bit in his mouth. Some horses like the bit to sit higher than others but you said you already tried that and it didn't work. Quite often a horse that lifts his tongue over is doing it to avoid the pressure on his tongue so a high or low port would be a good place to start if he can fit one in his mouth. A jointed snaffle is not likely to help and could easily increase his discomfort as it can squash the tongue with its nutcracker action. How old is he and how long has he been driving? If he is green he may just need more time to get accustomed to the feel of a bit in his mouth. Go back to longlining and perhaps try a copper or sweet iron mouth. There are tons of things you can try BEFORE ever resorting to tying a tongue! I would suggest you might like to have a professional take a look at him for you and they may be able to help you out better than we can not being able to see him in person .

 

[hobbyhorse23]

MiLo:

If you look at the wide range of nosebands available for big horses you will see that Mini Tack is lagging sadly behind, and thsi can only be because people are not knowledgeable enough to ask for them.Look at how quickly the freedom collars became available for Minis once they were requested.

Ooooorr, because there's not enough demand to make developing the product worth it for the manufacturer. I started asking for something like the FC back in 2004 and was told repeatedly it was impossible and I know others were told the same. It took two or three years to get them out on the market after the mini CDE niche developed and there's still only one model, once choice.

I don't call that quick!

Flash nosebands are available from many mini tack manufacturers, you just have to know to ask for them. Frankly if you don't know enough to find them or make them yourself, you probably shouldn't be using one. Strapping a horse's mouth shut without addressing the basic reason he's objecting is not sound horsemanship and doesn't actually do you much good for AMHR/AMHA as I don't believe those devices are legal in the show ring. (I'm willing to be proven wrong on that and it would be kind of silly anyway, given that checks are required and martingales stardard.

Sorry, off topic.) They are allowed in ADS but again, fix the basic problem first. The only time a flash noseband is appropriate IMO is when putting the tongue over the bit, fussing, or incessant champing have become bad habits. Gosh knows we all need a little help breaking habits but so often the difficulty is actually with the equipment or the hands holding the lines; you'll never find out what you need to fix if you hide the problem.

Leia

 

[rabbitsfizz]

FLASH...Thanks Leia and Kathy, brain freeze here, I'm afraid!!!

I totally agree with you over the strapping the nose shut thing, of course, but if it is going to be done anyway then a flash is preferable to trying to do it with a cavesson, which will actually do damage to the jaw.

I know the FC took a while, but if it had not been asked for it would not have happened at all...it is only by requesting the right things often enough that we can get the "tack people" to come up with the goods, so asking is the way to go.

In large numbers where possible!!

I also agree with teeth checked, I think I said that?? Maybe not, I am never sure these days

Also, the snaffle I had in mind was a French Link, sorry, I always have that bit in mind and I quite often forget to say that!!

I have used a bootlace to hold the "hinge" or plate a little higher in the mouth, on occasion, but I would never tie down a tongue!

I think we are mostly agreed that you have uncovered an iceberg here, and you need to see how big the problem really is before you start tackling it.

Logical place to start is the bit itself and the teeth, I would have thought??

 

[Kathy2m]

I had this problem with Abby when I first started her and after switching to a French link and moving the bit up in her mouth and just some more time she actually holds the bit very nice in her mouth and reins like a dream. I posted on Leia's site a few days ago on the training of my new driving prospect, he is doing the same thing, I have him in a French Link, but need to put more holes in his head stall to move it up so I haven't put it back on him yet. (Busy getting Abby ready for the ADT next week end) He has been bitted for a very short time, so time will tell. Good Luck, Kathy

 

[mgranch]

Thank You everyone I so appreciate all your help!!! He is green and I will try a different bit and moving it up in his mouth. He has only been driving a very short time so could just be getting used to having a bit in his mouth!!