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MODERN vs. CLASSIC

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mistyrose

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Well there was no message butI thought I would mention Modern and Classic describe different divisions of Shetland ponies. Neither Miniature horse registry has Modern or Classic divisions.
 

disneyhorse

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Hee hee hee... I wonder why there was no message posted??? I will try again:

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on splitting the MINIATURE horse types down into "Modern" and "Classic" because at AMHR Nationals I am seeing a lot of the "shetlandy type" of miniatures (and I love them!) winning and it seems (or so I hear a lot of breeders griping) that the older style of mini (a bit coarser, with the short dishy head) can't compete (you know, the halter-style QH type I guess?)...

So maybe a possibility would be to have two types, like the Shetlands do?

Does that make any sense?

Andrea
 

Magic

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It does make sense, BUT--- who would determine which horses would go in which categories? In the shetlands, it is the the breeding of the ponies which makes them "classic" or "modern", with the moderns having hackney blood in them.
 

midnight star stables

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I don't really like the idea... i don't really even like the "modern" shetland... and i would HATE to see our minis go that way, because if some one does like that look, then they should get a shetland... & leave minis the way they are!
(like QHs they haven't changed over the years much... so i don't think minis should, but i know they did & do
)

JMO
 

Erica

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(like QHs they haven't changed over the years much... so i don't think minis should, but i know they did & do   )
Oohhh.........I have to TOTALLY disagree with this. I think "most" minis have come leaps and bounds from the first ones....

And we should always STRIVE for better - other than sticking with so-so just because it is easy

And has said what makes a Modern a modern and not a classic is BREEDING. You can have a modern that looks "classic" and would show better classic but you are out of luck if it is B papered (all to do with Hackney breeding) as it can ONLY show modern........
 
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kaykay

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well we have a modern pleasure shetland and just love her!!! So many people forget the modern pleasure division horses. They are a nice blend of modern and classic. So please dont put all modern ponies in one basket.

Also i would be one of those "terrible" people that is planning to breed pony to mini. There are alot of great attributes to be had in doing this cross. If i just wanted to leave minis the way they are there would be no reason to breed any miniatures


disney--- i have heard alot of people discuss this but i hear that AMHR says there is just no way. There would be way too many classes. Heck they cant schedule enough classes at the shows now. Instead of having different types in amhr i would rather see an under 30 division class schedule.

Also i have to disagree that the quarter type cant win. The last two shows i attended the judges were definately picking the more quarter type minis. Just depends on who is judging!!!
 

lyn_j

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[SIZE=14pt]I am also one that is blending the minis and shetlands and my smallest mini IS a shetland at 32". Also have to disagree that quarter horses have not changed since they have changed a GREAT deal with the apendix quarterhorses being much taller and longer legged with less bulk. Anyway that is neither here nor there with the minis. I have also heard from die hard anti shetland mini people that they cant win because we are all showing shetlands against them.That isnt true because Erica can and does beat us alot! Thats also not true as KAy said it depends on who is judging. A good horse is a good horse conformationally and the standard doesnt dictate style.[/SIZE]

Also as a shetland person, I know of several modern shetlands that could have foundation seals but have that modern look. I also know of three that I saw last year at Docs sale that will likely be sporting mini papers in a ccouple of years that are as modern as they come.

That said I think that minis will remaiin just that without divisions and these things will just make it interesting in the future.

Lyn
 
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Magic

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kaykay said:
  Instead of having different types in amhr i would rather see an under 30 division class schedule. 
Also i have to disagree that the quarter type cant win.  The last two shows i attended the judges were definately picking the more quarter type minis.  Just depends on who is judging!!!

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I agree with Kaykay-- sometimes the quarterhorse style horse wins, it really does depend on who is judging at the time.

and I really like it when there are height divisions at the AMHR shows. I know it adds more classes, but not nearly as many as it would if we had different "types", and it levels the playing field somewhat for those smaller horses.
 

stormy

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I am still having a hard time understanding why, when the miniature horse split off years ago because the breeders wanted to develope a differant type of small equine, now all of a sudden the influx of shetland is considered an improvement and desirable. If a smaller height division was required for shetlands why did the shetland registery not just add another height division. I very much feel that heating the breed back up is going to eventually limit the market as we will no longer have a horse for everyone but a breed only the trainers can handle. I know this always starts a heated thread but I feel we need to preserve the miniature horse as a breed not turn it into a miniature shetland registry.
 

Jean_B

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Oh my gosh .... let's see .... all the reasons to NOT go in this direction.

First and foremost, Shetlands are divided into Classic and Modern by their (for the most part) pedigree or genetic heritage. The Classics are those that can trace their pedigrees back at least 3 or 4 generations (not absolutely certain on the number) with NO hackney influence. Moderns are those that have incorporated Hackney into their bloodlines. Shetlands are a breed....miniatures are still a height registry and will remain such until the books are TOTALLY closed.

Second... can you imagine how long Nationals would last ??? We now have A and B. Now let's add Classic and Modern to both the A and B... mares, stallions, geldings. WOW. We would be there almost a MONTH. And it would dilute the competition.

No, let's leave well enough alone...for the time being. Let's keep it strictly by height.
 
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kaykay

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stormy

breeding shetland blood back into miniatures wont neccessarily make them hotter. It just depends on the bloodline and disposition of horses being bred. There are plenty of hot blooded minis now and some people prefer them that way.

also there is room for what everyone likes which is what makes minis and shetlands so much fun. If you dont like shetland/mini crosses then you dont have to own any.

I can only speak for myself and my reasons for wanting to breed the shetland mini cross is not to have a small shetland. It is to have a better proportioned, better moving miniature.

Also you see a big interest right now in shetland/mini crosses because the B division is finally taking off.
 

lyn_j

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[SIZE=14pt]Stormy, here are some shetlands that are in all sought after bloodlines, Gold Melody Boy, Blue Boy, Rowdy, FWF Charro of Arenosa was first Kewpies Charro of arenosa, Kewpies El Monterey, The shetlands are already in the minis, very few minis are bred down from large horses... some POAs in the appy lines but really and truly 99% are decended from shetlands. We are just wanting to put back some of the leg and neck that went by the wayside when people started using horses like Bond Tiny Tim a known dwarf and his decendants and took the leg away to make a shorter horse. I have the magazines from the 80s when AMHA started and before then when they were called <Midget Ponies buy the AMHR and the IMHR was in existance... I was around then. I visited Flying W Farm, talked with Fredricka myself and she said in those years she and the NFC farm and JC Williams beat the bushes for any little pony that would measure in to become miniature horses. She had ponies from the Ohio pony farm and MR Wilson that became AMHA registered horses... I was there, I know. [/SIZE]

Lyn

Lyn
 
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ruffian

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I am still having a hard time understanding why, when the miniature horse split off years ago because the breeders wanted to develope a differant type of small equine, now all of a sudden the influx of shetland is considered an improvement and desirable. If a smaller height division was required for shetlands why did the shetland registery not just add another height division. I very much feel that heating the breed back up is going to eventually limit the market as we will no longer have a horse for everyone but a breed only the trainers can handle. I know this always starts a heated thread but I feel we need to preserve the miniature horse as a breed not turn it into a miniature shetland registry.
I agree with you! I don't like seeing these high stepping, long nosed Hackney style ponies being bred into the miniature breed. I've been in this business long enough to be able to say that I don't agree with double registering Shetlands and miniatures. It was split off for a reason! Miniatures and Shetlands have different body styles and different temperments. This is a bad direction to take, and I can see it coming where someone will push through a rule to allow shoes "for protecting their feet" and then adding pads and weights, braids, and pushing our horses to the extremes that the finest shetland trainers would love.


Why is is the AMHR has raised the rates for registering AMHA horses, but you can easily double register a Shetland??? Yes lots of ponies were used to begin the breed, but that was years ago, so why take a step backwards? If this is just a height breed, why not register dwarfs? They meet the height requirement??

Just because a horse looks like a Morgan, it cannot be registered as a morgan. Until recently, a full blood quarter horse couldn't be registered if it had excessive white. A mixed breed dog that has curly hair can't be registered as a poodle. If we want to keep the miniature horse a breed and not a melting pot, we need to end the pony influx.

OK - off my soap box - flame away
 

minicount

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I will admit to also not liking the idea as already pointed out how would one make the divisions and show size.

Any one that has been in the horse business knows that there are "fads". I apologize for use of that word, it's not quite right but close. Pick a breed and if you look close enough you can see certain time periods where a color or bloodline or look was very popular and bred like rabbits. Like anything else over time it levels out.

Actually I doubt many breeds have changed as much as the QH and is an excellent example of the diversity in a breed. QH farms today breed for Halter, cutting, racing, WP, eventing and rodeo and very few sets of horses look anything like the next. Cutters have turned into very expensive ponies with some standing at 13H but the racers are getting just as big as the TB. Most horses bred for the straight away can not get down into the dirt and turn like the cow horse build. See where I'm going?
 
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Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis

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ruffian said:
[i agree with you!  I don't like seeing these high stepping, long nosed Hackney style ponies being bred into the miniature breed.  I've been in this business long enough to be able to say that I don't agree with double registering Shetlands and miniatures.  It was split off for a reason!  Miniatures and Shetlands have different body styles and different temperments.  This is a bad direction to take, and I can see it coming where someone will push through a rule to allow shoes "for protecting their feet" and then adding pads and weights, braids, and pushing our horses to the extremes that the finest shetland trainers would love.

Why is is the AMHR has raised the rates for registering AMHA horses, but you can easily double register a Shetland???  Yes lots of ponies were used to begin the breed, but that was years ago, so why take a step backwards?  If this is just a height breed, why not register dwarfs?  They meet the height requirement??

OK - off my soap box - flame away


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Well first off i dont understand why those with AMHA horses (and no not all) seem to feel they are entitled to enter there AMHA horses cheaply into AMHR

AMHA has never offered that for 34 and under R horses

quite frankly I am not sure why people still continue to call the minis a BREED they are not a blood breed at all it is a height breed and I to have been doing this for quite a few years and to compare dwarves to a horse with "pony" pedigree is offensive to me anyway and if you look back most minis do have ponies in there pedigree this is nothing new

as far as saying ponies will make them a breed only trainers can handle well i have seen many a ill mannered mini as well- it comes down to having horse sense and knowledge and teaching your horses manners no matter what the size.

Personally I dont think there will be different types in the show ring as in classes but I do thinkthat people need to accept that shetland blood is already in our minis this isnt a new thing or a new fad
 

Magic

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ruffian said:
Why is is the AMHR has raised the rates for registering AMHA horses, but you can easily double register a Shetland???  Yes lots of ponies were used to begin the breed, but that was years ago, so why take a step backwards?

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Because it was extremely inexpensive to register a horse from AMHA into AMHR, which is a totally separate registry, and it was much more expensive to register a pony into AMHR, which is the SAME registry. It was only fair that the costs were made more level.

And since miniatures are essentially "minature ponies" anyway, what is so wrong with adding in more ponies? Most, if not all, of the biggest-name and highly influential bloodlines are from shetland ponies. IMO, the goal of breeding should be to continually "better" the breed, and that is what is being done with registering shetlands as miniatures too. JMO
 

lyn_j

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[SIZE=14pt]The cost to register an amha horse with amhr is EXACTLY the same as registering a shetland with amhr. They dont make it easier to register shetlands as minis it is actually harder because you can register your yearling amha horse now as a yearling while I have to wait till Shirley and Hattie are 3 to get them amhr papers. How fair is that? I too am offended by the comparison of why not register a dwarf if it is a height only registry? ??? Quality is important to any breed and the miniature horse wether amha or amhr is and always will be only a height registry. I have shetland minis even A sized ones. I wont put shoes and pads on them as they are Foundation Classics not modern ponies. I would never vote for that change either. Why are so many amha people afraid of the shetland influence coming back .My ponies are kind and easy going just like the minis I have. They are not so hot that only trainers can handle them or I would not be driving them at home or at shows being visually impaired. IT all depends on the horse. I have had minis that I could not trust to behave. Just the fact that the others are shetland or part shetland doesnt mean they are idiots.[/SIZE]

What are you amha people going to do when my 32 inch shetland stallion has amha papers but because that registry isnt kind enough to put his pedigree on when he is hardshipped you wont know that he has a hundred years of shetlands behind him. Wouldnt that be better than the hardshipped 10 years ago amha horse found in someones back yard who happened to be 32 inches? If you didnt know he was shetland but he won at the world show would you like him any better?

Watch out 'cause he's coming in 2008!

Lyn
 
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Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis

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ok to clear up my offended remark I am of the belief that dwarves shouldbe and deserve to be registered as well with the word DWARF stamped on there papers for those that are willing to own up to and want to track these genes and lines it isnt everything but is a start but that is a whole other subject


So it isnt that i was offended that dwarves were mentioned that way but more that someone can compare a genetic defect to a pony just makes NO SENSE
 

hhpminis

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I am a breeder of the shetland mini cross and I love what I am getting. They have beauty, grace, elegance, and yes even good attitudes and minds. I personally like the taller horse/pony.

I personally am most offended by the comment that Shetlands are hard to handle and ill mannered. Mine are required to have good manners and a decent brain. If they dont they are not part of my breeding program.

I feel Shetlands got a bad rap back in the 60's and early 70's when they were popular and everyone bought one for their children. They put little or no training into them as they were purchased and given to a child who did not have the knowledge or horse sense to train them or discipline them properly and they developed bad habits because they were allowed to do so. Any horse of any breed that is not handled and trained properly can become a nuisance and a problem horse. Any animal for that manner, look at the shelters filled with Dalmations and Jack Russells because someone thought they were cute on the screen and then found out they were not what they expected when they were bouncing off the walls.

I do not have a problem with someone who wants the tiny minis, the QH type minis, the arab type minis, the appaloosa, or any other type. This is what I prefer and I am thankful that I have found a breed of equine that allows that diversity to appease all equine enthusiasts. This is another thing that makes the Miniature Horse a "Horse for Everyone".
 
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kaykay

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i really dont get why this upsets people. You will never convince people that dont like it that breeding shetland back into minis is okay. and you will never convince people like me thats a bad thing.

Can we just agree to disagree LOL. Like i said if you dont want a shetland cross DONT BUY ONE.

I just dont get why anyone gets so upset about it.

The biggest thing that gets me though is most people who put down shetlands have no experience with them.
I really take offense to the long nosed statement. I wouldnt sit here and slam people miniatures or put them all in one category.

Hmm wheres the long nose here??



heres my modern pony handled by my then 9 yr old son--doesnt look like a raging beast to me but she is a high stepper LOL

 
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