MODERN vs. CLASSIC

[shminifancier]

I don't really like the idea... I don't really even like the "modern" shetland... and I would HATE to see our minis go that way

I couldn't agree more~!

 

[Farmhand]

I am a breeder of the shetland mini cross and I love what I am getting.  They have beauty, grace, elegance, and yes even good attitudes and minds.  I personally like the taller horse/pony.I personally am most offended by the comment that Shetlands are hard to handle and ill mannered.  Mine are required to have good manners and a decent brain.  If they dont they are not part of my breeding program. 

I feel Shetlands got a bad rap back in the 60's and early 70's when they were popular and everyone bought one for their children.  They put little or no training into them as they were purchased and given to a child who did not have the knowledge or horse sense to train them or discipline them properly and they developed bad habits because they were allowed to do so.  Any horse of any breed that is not handled and trained properly can become a nuisance and a problem horse.  Any animal for that manner, look at the shelters filled with Dalmations and Jack Russells because someone thought they were cute on the screen and then found out they were not what they expected when they were bouncing off the walls.

I do not have a problem with someone who wants the tiny minis, the QH type minis, the arab type minis, the appaloosa, or any other type.  This is what I prefer and I am thankful that I have found a breed of equine that allows that diversity to appease all equine enthusiasts.  This is another thing that makes the Miniature Horse a "Horse for Everyone".

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[Minimor]

I wouldn't like to see shows divided up into Modern & Classic Miniatures, nor do I ever want to see it legal for Minis to be shod & shown with weighted shoes. But, I see nothing wrong with the Shetlands being put into the registry for the same fee that AMHA horses must pay. That's only fair IMO. So many people turn a blind eye to the fact that the Miniatures have their origin in Shetland ponies.

Here in Manitoba we don't have any of the American Shetlands, as in Modern or Classic--the only Shetlands we seem to see around here are the original short, rather dumpy pit-pony type of Shetland. Ponies still get a bad rap around here--people say they are mean & nasty & obnoxious. But, from everything I've seen, the only real problem with these ponies is....they are smarter than their handlers!

We do have Hackneys here, and while they may appear hot in the show ring, truthfully I do not find them hot or hard to handle--I see them as being very agreeable. Come one, people, let someone stick a wad of ginger up your backside & see just how bug eyed, twitchy, high stepping & even objectionable you become!!

We don't have any ASPC ponies in our Mini herd, and maybe never will--not sure we'll ever afford one--any registered Shetland in our horses is several generations back now. But, we're breeding for the Shetland look--longer legs, upright neck, higher heads, finer bone and fancy action. We do have some that are hotter than some of you might consider ideal, but they aren't crazy-hot--they have attitude, and we like them that way! So, keeping the ASPC horses out of the Mini registries isn't going to keep the Mini "look" from changing. I've borrowed some old magazines from a friend, & I see a lot of changes from the '80s to the '90s to the present.

I think the Miniature breed will always have something for everyone, whether you like the Shetland type, or the older type, more stocky, QH type Mini. I just don't see everyone jumping on any one bandwagon, so that all others go by the wayside. And, I believe there will always be judges that prefer a certain type--some are going to go for the Shetlands, and some will always prefer the non-Shetland type! I just hope that breeders will always strive for correct conformation, regardless of whether their chosen conformation is shorter & stocky, or more leggy & fine, whether they are raising A's or B's.

 

[Fred]

The shetlands are a breed with a pedigree. The minis are a height registry only.

The shetlands for a long time had to pay quite a bit to double register their ponies

in AMHR. AMHA has gotten off quite cheaply on registering in AMHR over the

years. Personally I like the shetlands a lot and would love to have a double

registered one. My horses also compete with them and they are AMHA/AMHR

registered and we also do quite well. If you are competeing in AMHR remember

they are a part of the Shetland Pony Club. If we can improve our minis in any

way I'm all for it. I think the shetland people have done quite well improving the

quality of their ponies over the years maybe we should take a few lessons from

them. Linda B

 

[R Whiteman]

For what it is worth....

All breeds have changed over the years. Quarter Horses never use to go over 15 -22 hands very often when I was a much younger person. In the 60's and early 70"s a lot of Mini's were short fat little dwarf animals with bad teeth, bad legs heads and awful necks. They have come a long way from there.

I have shown both in the A ring and in the R rings. Owners and trainers put their horses in class where they have the best chance to win. Recently horses that use to be entered say in single pleasure classes now all seem to be in the country classes. Why? Because they are not winning in the single pleasure classes and they are winning in the country. They will continue to show there as long as the judges place them well. When certain types of horses continue to place well, there is a market developed because if you want to compete you have to have that kind of horse.

AMHR has been discovered by a whole new group of people. They train hard and present their horses well. This has causes some disruption to the individuals that like to show in halter classes dressed in sweatshirts and blue jeans and drive horses they "broke" three weeks ago. I only bring this up because it is not just the horses that have change in the last several years.

Nuf said for now,

Ron

 

[Tapestry Minis]

The shetlands are a breed with a pedigree.  The minis are a height registry only.

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If miniatures don't have a pedigree what are all the names on my horses papers? If miniatures were JUST a height breed then why do certain people have programs designed around a certain pedigree? Why, generally speaking, are miniatures with a sought after pedigree valued more than a horse with an unknown or unproven pedigree? Why do we pay so much to get them registered with a pedigree and not JUST by height? If you want to get real technical, miniatures are a height breed but for me and is evident in many other ranches breeding programs that pedigree has become very important.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

If miniatures don't have a pedigree what are all the names on my horses papers?  If miniatures were JUST a height breed then why do certain people have programs designed around a certain pedigree?  Why, generally speaking, are miniatures with a sought after pedigree valued more than a horse with an unknown or unproven pedigree?  Why do we pay so much to get them registered with a pedigree and not JUST by height?  If you want to get real technical, miniatures are a height breed but for me and is evident in many other ranches breeding programs that pedigree has become very important.

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Well I agree and disagree there is nothing technical about it a mini is ANY HORSE under and to 34 inches no matter what the breeding and up until a 8 months ago it was ANY HORSE under and to 38 inches- so while a horse can have a pedigree it is just as easy that a horse with a totally unknown background can have papers as well how many pedigrees have unknown on them TONS AND TONS.

That doesnt take away from pedigree but the fact that there is a pedigree doesnt take away from the fact that minis are a height breed

and what i dont understand is this..

if a horse or a line started with shetlands and then due to market of the ponies people opted to register them as miniatures way back when and start a new line of pedigree really in a new breed .. why does the fact that shetlands bred to shetlands (as minis didnt just appear one day on this earth as there own breed) even if you call them minis are still shetlands be it 1 generation back or 6 generations back on paper bottom line is it is still a shetland just being called a mini and why does this have to be such a bad thing or a dividing thing without shetlands we wouldnt have our minis and for me well i am glad someone came up with the great marketing idea way back when of midget ponies and then miniature horses cause look where it got all of us

 

[Chynagurl8]

I personally love the B sized minis and I hope some people do continue to breed the shetlands to minis. As far as the "hot" personality, not everyone wants an "in your pocket" kind of horse. Honestly most, (at all, but most) back yard horses, don't make great show horses because they are simply too nice and don't have enough fire. (If that makes sense)

If you don't like the the mini shetland look don't breed for it or buy it. If you do, well then breed and buy that way.

 

[Cathy_H]

Seems the original question has been answered.

So was (is) the miniature horse a fad?

With as many people that we have seen get in & out of miniature horses (since 1986 when we got into them) you would tend to think so. Now that the fad?? is slowly fading ?? some breeders are going back to what they would have preferred to begin with - shetlands. Fine tuned & tweaked of course; some may even call it progress- betterment of the breed........ For those that still want the 'true miniature horse' there's plenty to be found; still have a few here on the farm.

Except for size our shetland filly is no different in temperment than our miniature mares. I have seen some mini's that were worse tempered than shetlands. Don't see a long nose here either. To be fair I have seen some mini's with long straight heads (noses) also.

I feel Shetlands got a bad rap back in the 60's and early 70's when they were popular and everyone bought one for their children. They put little or no training into them as they were purchased and given to a child who did not have the knowledge or horse sense to train them or discipline them properly and they developed bad habits because they were allowed to do so

.
With all the bad rap talk about the earlier shetlands, makes you chuckle when you think what the conversations might be like 30-40 years from now when people are discussing the "old style miniature horses".

Miniature horses in the same environment as the shetlands mentioned above would most likely act like & get the same bad rap as the earlier shetlands did. I think I've already seen some of them.

 

[Lauralee]

YAH haven't we recently seen several threads about BITING and KICKING and generally UNRULY miniatures??? So don't lump a whole breed as having a uniform personality unless you consider the environment in which that horse was reared.

I firmly believe that the ONLY way to get a real neck and movement into the under 34" height range, is to INFUSE the right type of shetland or other necky pony blood into the breed.

This body type is NOT going to go away like a fad, it is a better balanced, more visually pleasing body type that judges will continue to select into infinity. So those of you who like short legged, chunky, big-bodied, coarse, neck-less horses can certainly have them, just don't be shocked when you miss out on the ribbons.

I don't own a single pureblood shetland, but then again, maybe I do???? I also firmly believe that our minis are pure, or nearly pure shetland in heritage.

For the record, I would LOVE to own an ASPC and AMHR and AMHA herd. That would be fabulous!

 

[stormy]

OK so the first people responding to my post about the infusion of mini ponies thanks, you guys make a good arguement. I still am not sure though why the shetland registry did not just add a height division for those that love the mini pony, the mini horse and mini pony are differant or this discussion would never have begun. To those of you throwing rocks now, stating that minis not double registered ASPC are short necked, squatty, course, and badly conformed give me a break! There are many, many small equines out there not carrying shetland or hackney breeding close up that are refined, moving, well conformed animals...they are simply a differant type as comparing arabian to saddlebred. The miniature horse split off and became a seperate breed just as the thoroughbred from the arabian, the morgan from the standardbred, on and on. Do we have to lose the mini horse to gain the mini shetland...can they not both exist?? They are indeed differant. I will also say again in AMHR minis are no longer a height breed, not any pony under 38" can be registered, only offspring of registered parents. Height is now only one of the criteria for registration.

I will also say in reply to an early comment I also own very nice classic shetlands, some under 38", they are not mean but do behave differantly than my minis. I love them, they are beautiful, they are shetlands and I am proud of them as Shetlands.

 

[runamuk]

This whole thread is interesting.......

I personally just love ponies in general and mini's to me are simply another form of pony.......

 

[andi]

The idea of having two separate classes sounds very nice, but I think is far too complicated and almost impossible. Like others have stated, the breeding is what separated the Shetlands. With minis it would be up to the owners' discretion, and that would be very hard to control.

In reference to some other comments being made about making blanket statements about an entire breed ... If the average mini can be labeled as shorter necked and less leggy with poorer movement than most Shetlands, than Shetlands can definitely be considered worse tempered than most minis. I do feel that there are exceptions in both breeds though, and quite a few actually. We all know that these are faults of both and many of us have reduced these characteristics. To state that there is absolutely no way to produce a true long neck or good movement into a horse under 34" without incorporating more Shetland blood is ridiculous.

I am someone who prefers the look of today’s TOP minis to the look of most of the TOP Shetlands. While not all my minis have Shetland type proportions they excel in other areas of their conformation. There are many other parts to a horse than just neck and leg length. What about depth and levelness of hip, shape of head, shoulder angle, back length, tail set, muscling and straightness of legs. While Shetlands may have some characteristics that they excel in, many also have major faults. I showed a miniature horse mare last year who measured into the over division just barely. She was 32.5 inches as a yearling. She showed all year against many many Shetlands, most over 34 inches. She received over 10 Supremes. Again she does not look like a Shetland "a more better balanced, more visually pleasing body type that judges will continue to select into infinity". But she is not a short legged, chunky, big-bodied, coarse, neck-less horse. She is all this without her sire or dam or grand sire or grand dam being Shetland. The people who where left to be shocked when they didn't get their ribbons where owners of the more better balanced, more visually pleasing body type that judges will continue to select into infinity.

Sorry if this was at all harsh, but I am one of the many mini owners who are extremely annoyed with their breed being classified as short legged, chunky, big-bodied, coarse, neck-less horses. And being told that the only way to improve it is to make it look like a different breed.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I don't own a single pureblood shetland, but then again, maybe I do????  I also firmly believe that our minis are pure, or nearly pure shetland in heritage.

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I think that is exactly what I have been trying to say only didnt say it as simply as you

Andi i hear your point but am curious exactly then what does a miniature horse look like ? I dont understand the make it look like another breed when our horses all tend to look like MANY of there larger counterparts not a breed in and of themselves?

 

[Lauralee]

FOR THE RECORD--

I never said that ALL miniatures under 34 were short, chunky and neck-less. There are plenty of nice ones under 34. Thanks for twisting my statement into a new meaning!

JUST Where did they get their neck? Legs? Dishy head? IMO the answer....FROM the Shetland ponies from which they descended. Shetlands and minis are two different breeds? Hardly, in fact, one in the same, just different strains of the SAME basic breed selected for height and other criteria which were important (or not?) three decades ago.

The original AMHA only gene pool did not include this type of horse way back when and short, chunky, drafty build was the type that was used as the basis. Even the shetland itself did not popularize a slim build and lean, long neck at that time. However it has been developed to the present day and from what I see, it will take eons before those under 34 can get it, if the gene pool is closed to the current AMHA registered stock.

What I DID say is that those who want to CONTINUE intentionally breeding for the chunky, drafty, neck-less build (and there are plenty still being produced!!!!) are free to do so, (in BOTH height categories I might add) but shouldn't become shocked when the horse with the OTHER (ahem, SHETLAND) build takes the ribbons.

 

[Mini_Bre]

I feel this is why it is so great that there are two registries. If you are interested in a horse with heavier shetland breeding then AMHR is for you considering you can have horses up to 38 inches. Then there is AMHA for those of us who are more focused on a different type of horse. Also one thing I must say is please quit saying people are in denial that miniatures have shetland blood no one said they didn't! I read this entire topic and I couldn't find one person who said miniatures didn't have shetland blood only many people saying that they did.

Also have to add…AMHR stands for American Miniature Horse Registry and AMHA stands for American Miniature Horse Association. Not trying to be “smart†but just making a point. If the registry was meant for miniature ponies (as some on here called them) wouldn’t we refer to them as AMPR and AMPA?

Breanne

 

[susanne]

If the registry was meant for miniature ponies (as some on here called them) wouldn’t we refer to them as AMPR and AMPA?

Nope it's all a matter of semantics...marketing hype used to differentiate minis from other small ponies. Ponies are also horses -- just small ones. Minis are just small ponies or extra small horses. Only the name and height, not genetics, sets them apart.

 

[runamuk]

On a purely technical level they are all ponies.....equines standing under 14.2 hands are considered ponies......yes we own several purebred arabian ponies......

Actually at one time there was a story going round that the miniature horse came to be by way of aliens or some such sillyness

and then there were the NO pony blood at all theories.......most of these silly things came about as a way to SELL more of them for more money.....make them exotic and novelty....

Funny about the attitude of shetlands in my area the farriers etc....don't have a good opinion of those miniature horses cuz they are mean nasty ill mannered creatures

and shetlands are considered the nicer temperment and behaivior wise.......I so agree blanket statements about anything just don't work

 

[justjinx]

Per mini bre "If you are interested in a horse with heavier shetland breeding then AMHR is for you considering you can have horses up to 38 inches".

interesting way of looking at B minis ---

jennifer

 

[andi]

So those of you who like short legged, chunky, big-bodied, coarse, neck-less horses can certainly have them, just don't be shocked when you miss out on the ribbons.

I was referring to the above statement. I did not see any posts which anyone said that they liked "short legged, chunky, big-bodied, coarse, neckless horses". The only posts that I saw that you may have been replying to said that they prefer the current look of miniature horses over the Shetland. It appears that with this statement you where making a blanket statement about the current miniature horse. Was there a different breed that you were defining?

Hi Lisa,

I agree that the Minis do look like most of their larger counterparts. So far in the topic the implication has been that the minis are inferior until Shetlands are crossed back with them, that they have a look of there own that needs to be fixed. I feel that by selectively breeding minis to minis we can produce top quality animals.

I am not against the whole idea of breeding Shetlands to minis. I am very often looking for a Shetland mare to cross with one of our miniature stallions, to help and add more height to his foals. If I was to find a Shetland that I thought would cross well I would do it. So far I have found the best crosses in horses under 38".