Miniature Shetlands and Foundation Miniatures

[mel]

Please don't flame me this is just a thought! For those of you that show miniatures (AMHR) how many of you have shown against miniature shetland registered horses, who won? Now I have both mini shetland registered horses that I show and straight miniatures, ( I know minis are a height registry) but with the very obvious differences in the horses, what are the chances of splitting the minis into say modern mini, and foundation mini? Has anyone ever thought about this?

 

[Devon]

Have to say its a really neat idea.

I have seen minis beat the shetlands, I've seen alot of poorly conformed shetlands as well. Some Shetlands yes are really extreme and you are unlikely to find the extremety in Miniatures , some judge's don't like that extreme shetland/Mini though and then the more correct of the two will still win so It's a iffy thing.

I'm actually thinking people would start breeding more mini x shetlands then to get around it, they definatly cross nicely.

Our filly was 3/4 shetland she looks the full thing copy of her father with her mother's miniature head and her mothers refinement. What would a horse such as herself qualify as?

 

[Leeana]

This has been discussed many times and ive had thoughts run threw my head about it as well, not thoughts that i agree of of course

. I would be very much agianst, of course as i believe the breed should move forward and not backwards, even though if you think about it...its funny as the amhr/aspc were so popular years ago and then somewhat dimmed away and then came back 10x as strong...so the breed somewhat did go backwards when the craze for amhr/aspc came along.

Its just a look and type, you can get the shetland look even without aspc papers or two aspc parents, i have a rowdy bred colt that i got from Erica that you would think is a shetland is you looked at him...heavily rowdy bred so guess that would explaine it

.

Ive heard so many people say "im selling my amhr miniatures, no point in breeding them since they cannot compete agianst the shetlands"...that is so not true, if anything you should take that as a cue to step up your program to another level and expand to be able to successfully compete agianst those shetland (type) horses in the ring....

So, i guess to wrap it all up...yes i would be and am strongly agianst this. The shetlands today are not what they were 10...20 years ago...they have IMPROVED, guess i should not say imroved, do not want to affend anyone but they are a completely different pony today then back then..all of the types, the miniatures need to move forward.

If 20 years ago all breeders had sat down and decided the breed had come far enough..the were refined and correct and pretty enough, then we would NOT have the BETTER horses today. I cannot wait to see where the breed (and shetland breed, too..) is 10..20...30...40 years from now, its almost hard to imagine a more pretty refined showy horse then what we have today...but there will be.

 

[JourneysEnd]

First let me state, I'm not a breeder.

Now let's bring the pot to a boil.

Are they "better" or just "different" ?

Do we no longer want the stock type mini with the really gentle temperament ?

I trim a lot of feet and in general the newer shetland mini crosses are a little more feisty.

The problem with a foundation mini as I see it is, we've just stopped hardshipping.

Who decides which horses are foundation ?

I see halter horses in the minis today that are, IMO not sturdy enough to pull a cart anymore.

Do we go two directions with the breed ?

I'm just not sure what has happened in the past few years is indeed improvement.

I think foundation minis are a good idea, just not sure how it could be done.

 

[mel]

I agree with you about the breed moving forward, I guess one of the reasons this thought was running through my head and I was doing an internal debate with myself is that I have had so many people make the comment to me that "I would buy the horse if it had Shetland Papers too." And after inquireing further they liked the horse but wanted Shetland papers. I don't understand that mind set, the conformation, and attitude make the horse not a piece of paper. I like the super extreme type, it doesn't always work for me, but that is what I like wether they are mini or shetland. I am enjoying reading about the different ideas with this thread, and am glad others have thought about this. Voice your opinions!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I have brought this up on here as well. I am all for adding a foundation miniature classes. Like the shetlands, they have their foundation classes, I believe its 4 generations of horses that are A papered back to beable to allow to have the foundation seal on that horses papers. Why can't it be the same with the minis? 4 generations back of no ASPC registered horses within their pedigrees, and I'm not talking about your horses that are hardshipped in that shows unknown pedigrees (excluding sire and dam). But your true miniature horse that are only miniatures horses back within their pedigrees.

I would love to see foundation classes be added in, for like your halter and driving divisions just split up for A and B divisions. Even though I am all for it, I can see alot of people against it. Too many people within the AMHR registry going for AMHR/ASPC.

 

[Leeana]

I have brought this up on here as well. I am all for adding a foundation miniature classes. Like the shetlands, they have their foundation classes, I believe its 4 generations of horses that are A papered back to beable to allow to have the foundation seal on that horses papers. Why can't it be the same with the minis? 4 generations back of no ASPC registered horses within their pedigrees, and I'm not talking about your horses that are hardshipped in that shows unknown pedigrees (excluding sire and dam). But your true miniature horse that are only miniatures horses back within their pedigrees.
I would love to see foundation classes be added in, for like your halter and driving divisions just split up for A and B divisions. Even though I am all for it, I can see alot of people against it. Too many people within the AMHR registry going for AMHR/ASPC.

Another good point to bring up is splitting classes locally at the area shows will reduce the numbers of horses in each class and make the shows longer as you would have to offer modern mini and foundation mini classes. I know over here..regular halter classes can have anyhwere from 1-6 (sometime more) horses in the class...so plitting that, that would put only 1 or 2 horses in each foundation class IF that, and would lower the number in the "modern mini" classes. Plus more classes and more time = more money to put on the show. As for the driving classes, there are already allot of horses in the WRONG driving class to begin with, why add more confusion to the process? I just dont see why that would be needed for the driving ring...if the foundation minis are supose to be like the actual foundation horses of the breed...im going to imagine most fitting in the WCP area....possibly CP.

As neat as the idea sounds, it just would not work.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I have brought this up on here as well. I am all for adding a foundation miniature classes. Like the shetlands, they have their foundation classes, I believe its 4 generations of horses that are A papered back to beable to allow to have the foundation seal on that horses papers. Why can't it be the same with the minis? 4 generations back of no ASPC registered horses within their pedigrees, and I'm not talking about your horses that are hardshipped in that shows unknown pedigrees (excluding sire and dam). But your true miniature horse that are only miniatures horses back within their pedigrees.
I would love to see foundation classes be added in, for like your halter and driving divisions just split up for A and B divisions. Even though I am all for it, I can see alot of people against it. Too many people within the AMHR registry going for AMHR/ASPC.

Another good point to bring up is splitting classes locally at the area shows will reduce the numbers of horses in each class and make the shows longer as you would have to offer modern mini and foundation mini classes. I know over here..regular halter classes can have anyhwere from 1-6 (sometime more) horses in the class...so plitting that, that would put only 1 or 2 horses in each foundation class IF that, and would lower the number in the "modern mini" classes. Plus more classes and more time = more money to put on the show. As for the driving classes, there are already allot of horses in the WRONG driving class to begin with, why add more confusion to the process? I just dont see why that would be needed for the driving ring...if the foundation minis are supose to be like the actual foundation horses of the breed...im going to imagine most fitting in the WCP area....possibly CP.

As neat as the idea sounds, it just would not work.

Yes that may be true but you also got to look at the other side of things. I have heard people say that they would like to bring their miniature back out and show it but they don't want to go against the shetlands. Maybe their would be more people involved if AMHR did offer these foundation classes. As for driving classes are concerned I don't see why there would be any more confusion. Either your horse has foundation papers or it doesn't. Its not necessarilly the local shows that I see much of a problem its more Nationals, and I would like to see it come back as our Miniature Nationals, I know I know, if your shetland fits its a mini.

I have nothing against shetlands, they are beautiful animals, and if they for sure fit under 38" & under then I'm fine with it, let them show. I just get tired of hearing people saying oh we can't compete with our miniatures so lets toss them aside and get a shetland. I don't want it unless it has shetland papers. People need to educate themselves and know that these judges, most of them, do not know or care if it has shetland papers or not, its whoever is better that day, my ex appaloosa mare I had has beaten shetlands, it can be done. But you got to admit they do have a slight edge right now.

 

[horsefeather]

I have to agree with JMS. We even have a few 'minitures' that I won't show as there's no way they can compete with that shetland head and neck (which so many judges judge by). I miss the gentle, easy to work with miniture. I know, I know, I have heard way too many times, there's no difference, these cross bred mini/shetlands are just as gentle. NOT! I have been around way too many not to see the difference. Ok, once in awhile you may actually see a mild one, and that's what most shetland people say. They seem to have them, but they sure aren't showing them. Just watch the showring!! And I agree that with the breeding going the way it is, I can see us having 'two' sets of minis. Those that show and those that are strong enough to pull a cart. JMO, and, we do have AMHR/ASPC horses too, so I can have a voice in this discussion.

Pam

 

[Allure Ranch]

[SIZE=12pt] Excellent suggestion... Why don't you submit it to the registry.[/SIZE]

Kimberle Young

Allure Ranch

http://www.allureranch.com

 

[kaykay]

I just dont think it will ever be feasible as the class list would be way too long to add that many classes in. Can you imagine how much longer Nationals would be?? Ughh.

Im just so tired of this constant thing of aspc/amhr or aspc ponies being to hot to handle. I have had miniatures that were much hotter then my ponies and yes I have seen them in the ring rearing, kicking etc. How many posts get posted about ill mannered miniatures? This year I put Jet in the ring with a girl that had never shown a pony and she showed him in showmanship. They did great together. I also let her show one of my aspc/amhr mares and again she did fine. There are hotter ponies just like there are miniatures.

Everyone has to breed and show what they like. The goal of a breeder is to keep evolving and moving forward, bettering your breed. I do know tons of people especially on this forum that breed only miniatures and do great showing. Because even if you dont want to add aspc blood to your herd you still have to be constantly watching and adding to your herd to keep breeding the best that you can.

 

[Filipowicz Farm]

I agree with Kay. I started with a miniature / Shetland called Peanut who was very easy to handle. We have minis, double registed Shetlands and Shetlands that are easy to handle. I beleive it how they are trained. We also have some older aspc/amhr mares that had issues when we bought them and working with them they have come around.For example Pie could not give shots or would go up for farrier work, now can do both with no problem. Just have to move more slowly around her. she is one of our favorites.

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

Here is my 2cents...

Miniatures are shetlands as far as I'm concerned. To many miniatures trace back to shetland blood.

As far as miniatures not being able to compete in today's showring, I don't totally agree with that.

If you go back to when miniatures first came about the biggest thing was keeping thier heights down. And to do that, the breeders sacrificed, leg length, neck length, hips, etc, etc, and you ended up with a short legged, short neck, no hip, thick miniature.

Today breeders have acknowledge these faults and are working on correcting them. Todays miniatures for the most part look totally different than those from just 10 years ago. Today we have a slimmer more stream line horse, with more leg, more neck, etc, and an animal that can move better as well. And this isn't all coming from crossing the miniatures with shetlands.

This is coming from breeders who are looking at what is winning in the showring, giving an honest, anti-barn blind look at their herd and working on making the necessary changes to stay competetive. Any breeder, regardless of the breed, needs to continuously do their homework.

If you want a miniature to show, start looking around for a breeder who has today's look in miniature. There are plenty of us out there.

 

[minie812]

I do have a question about the "feisty" in the miniature. Do you think that certain bloodlines carry that FEISTY characteristic in the blood and past this on to offspring? As we strive to improve this breed will certain old characteristics be lost?

 

[LaVern]

It is not the Honest Double Registered MiniatureHorse-ShetlandPony that the Full Blooded Miniature Horse can not compete successfully against.

It is the no good cheating, people and trainers that show oversized (for Miniature) Shetland Ponies. (I watched that Christmas show were the kid gets a BB gun for Christmas) last night. -Iedited this and took the Blankety Blankety thing out, because I thought maybe it was not appropriate.

The Full Blooded Miniature Horse (Straight Miniature) can easily compete successfully against any of it’s [SIZE=14pt]own size.[/SIZE]

And as far as creating more divisions for them. It might get like Congress. There are so manys specialized classes that it seems like every horse is a Champion.

And also, who decides who is a Foundation. I think the Shetland people fought for years while trying to decide what the different types of Shetland Pony were supposed to look like.

 

[JourneysEnd]

Im just so tired of this constant thing of aspc/amhr or aspc ponies being to hot to handle. I have had miniatures that were much hotter then my ponies and yes I have seen them in the ring rearing, kicking etc. How many posts get posted about ill mannered miniatures? This year I put Jet in the ring with a girl that had never shown a pony and she showed him in showmanship. They did great together. I also let her show one of my aspc/amhr mares and again she did fine. There are hotter ponies just like there are miniatures.

Kaykay, maybe it's how the breeder handles the horses. I just know that I do everything from Trakners (16 - 18 hands) to minis. What I get hurt with the most is modern shetlands. Now I'm not saying I don't get some ill manned minis. I don't think we'll totally lose the old type mini. They still do well in performance.

 

[kaykay]

I totally agree handling/training is a huge part of it and so is breeding. Certain bloodlines are hotter then others but thats true wether its a mini or a pony.

Also keep in mind that classic and foundation ponies are in general a calmer mini/pony. A large portion of the aspc/amhr horses are classic/foundation. The Moderns are known to be hotter but again I have seen many of them handled by children. Also Moderns are trained to turn it on in the ring. When you see them at home they are usually a much different pony. I think people automatically think "Modern Pony" when they think of aspc ponies because that is what sticks out in your mind. They kind of forget about the other divisions or dont pay as much attention to them when they are showing.

It might get like Congress. There are so manys specialized classes that it seems like every horse is a Champion.

Lavern Im just curious if you have ever attended Congress?? I sure wish it was that easy to walk away with a Congress Champion. There are some small classes at Congress but I saw small classes at AMHR nationals this year too. I think any National win be it Congress or AMHR/AMHA Nationals is a huge accomplishment.

I wish you could all come out and play with our ponies. Then you could see the wonderful temperments and how much fun they are. Patches is a Modern Pleasure and every person that comes here falls in love with her. Kyle started showing her when he was just 9 years old.

 

[LaVern]

No, Kay Kay I have not. I apologize, I am guilty of not being informed enough to say that about Congress. I am sure that the competion is very tuff.

Every year I say that I am going to go to Congress, because the Ponies are my competion and I feel that one must know everthing you can about your competion if you want to compete sucessfully against them. Hopefully I will make it this summer. And I will try to study every inch of every Pony I see.

But I stand by my statement about the Straight miniature should not have to compete with OverMinisized Shetlands. Granted, I have Full Blooded miniatures that go over 38 inches also. But they will not be registered any longer and you will not, if I can help it, see them in the showring.

 

[minih]

I just want to throw in a word or two about temperments, every one is acting like mini's are the sweetest things on the earth and shetlands are totally high strung. If you have ever looked for a farrier to do feet, you know you better have your running shoes on to catch that farrier after they find out you have mini's, they all think that they are the most unruly little cusses to do. And a lot of big horse people refer to mini's as "wild little mean things". My daughter goes to college and one of her professors made this statement in class. ??? I think any horse will be wild if not handled properly and often. Your show horses you do tend to let them keep their attitude more since they will show better in the arena. Also I believe your high steppers with a lot of action you want that flash in the arena, so you will handle them quite differently than you do a mini, classic or foundation. Sorry, I just get tired of the generalizations, especially here where there should be more knowledge about the smaller horses or ponies.

 

[SweetOpal]

It might get like Congress. There are so manys specialized classes that it seems like every horse is a Champion.

Are you serious? There are 335 class's TOTAL, that includes all the youth, amateur and Open, for Foundation, Classic, Modern Pleasure and Modern. And not to mention the PMC class's as well.

How many class's is Mini Nationals????

What Specialized class's are you speaking about? Those are divisions, no different that the A and B mini having 2 divisions.