Mini Mills (something like puppy mills)

[Rachel K]

To say that people shouldn't breed unregistered pet quality miniature horses is just wrong. There is nothing wrong with these types of animals just because they aren't as flashy as a registered show animal is. They are the same animal in a less flashy way. I think that all Horses are beautiful, not just the ones with the ribbons to prove it.

I want a miniature horse to be kept as a pet. Now tell me why I should get a registered show animal instead of a unregistered lower quality animal? I'm not interested in showing nor do I want to. That animals good bloodlines would be wasted there, unless of course I were to breed it. But then again for as much money as I would have to pay for that registered show animal would I really be making more off of the foals then I would with a unregistered lower quality animal? Considering that I would be spending nearly four times less on that lower quality unregistered animal if not more... I think not. Foals are basically sold around the price that you paid for the mare or stallion. Age factor, and quality have a effect on the price but you basically will make the same amount of money off of that foal as your mare or stallion is worth. Now if a registered show animal's offspring sells for around the same price as you paid for that mare or stallion, the same goes for a unregistered lower quality animal. If I paid $2500.00 on a Filly, then that filly will basically produce foals priced around the same price range. If I paid $400.00 on a filly, then that filly will basically produce foals priced around the same price range. Of course some things do affect that price range. So basically I will be just as happy with a unregistered lower quality animal then I would be with a registered show animal. A animal with papers is not always a good animal. A animal with a good background is not always a good animal. Sometimes a lower quality animal is not always low quality, even if they don't have the papers or the background to prove it.

If I had a small herd of unregistered lower quality miniature horses that I took excellent care of, and bred responsibly then I don't see why anyone would get upset over that fact. I'm not breeding scum, I'm breeding lower quality unregistered horses that are affordable and can be bought and kept as pets or driving horses.

Sometimes unexpectedly a Champion is born. Sometimes a gangly foal that appears to be low quality grows up to be a stunning animal. Sometimes a lower quality animal gives birth to a foal that will someday be a winner.

I raise Goats and soon will also be breeding them. I will be breeding for heavy milk production, well formed udders that are well attached, and decent conformation. I was offered a Purebred Alpine Buckling or a Oberhasli Alpine Grade Buckling from a friend of mine. I chose the Grade over the Purebred because the grade came from better lines then the purebred. Its true that I can make more money by selling purebred kids then I can by selling grade kids but this grade promises to give me the results that I want. I am slowly building up a wonderful little milk herd of beautiful goats. Some of which I am being given free and some of which I paid very little for. This doesn't mean that they aren't good animals. The buckling that I am getting free from my friend comes from wonderful lines. His granddam on his dams side is in the running for the top ten registered Alpine producers in ADGA. His granddam on his sires side came from a top herd. She won three grand champions. One doe I paid $25.00 for at the age of six weeks. She grew up to be a beauty. The same can happen with horses.

A good animal doesn't always come with a high price tag, ribbons, or papers.

I like others can't afford to just go out and spend $2500.00 and up on a miniature horse. If I can find a decent miniature horse priced at $200.00 or $400.00 then I don't think that anyone should tell me that its scum.

What everyone is saying here about registered show miniature horses can also be said about show goats. Why isn't everyone belittling the unregistered lower quality goats? I know that quite a few of you on here own goats.

 

[Mona]

Rachel K....Miniature Horses are not goats. Goats, as you know, and have stated, are raised for a different reason. Goats are more raised for meat and milk, whereas Miniature Horses are raised for showing, breeding, loving, driving, pergfoamance, and yes, pets. In goats, it really wouldn't matter if a goat is registered or not, if you are going to eat them and drink/use the milk. They will taste the same registered or not.

A Miniature horse has MANY limitations to what people can do with them if they are not registered. Nobody is saying a "pet" mini is "scum", but often times, they are unregistered for a reason. Quality can play a major roll in conformation. If a horse does not have decent conformation, they will often not even make a good pet, as they may not be able to eat well, or walk or trot or so many other things. It is always best to try to improve the breed.

 

[Rachel K]

I just brought up goats as a example...

But while on the topic... you are wrong when it comes to goats. Goats are shown just as much as Miniature Horses are. Some of the best sell for a very large amount of money.

Goats are used as pack animals, cart animals, show animals, and also used for pets, milk, and meat.

They are very intelligent animals. They are just as loving as a miniature horse is.

Yet people breed low quality goats when the goats conformation is just as important as a horses.

I'm not saying to bred miniature horses with bad conformation. That's one of my main points. I'm just saying that lower quality miniature horses shouldn't be frowned upon in the breeding world...

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

The horse business is, and always has been, caveat emptor -- let the buyer beware. Shady deals in horse dealings has been around since horses have. If someone buys a horse without doing their homework and ends up with a knock kneed sway back short legged bad mouthed dwarf as a supposed "show horse', then shame on them. As the Geico ad says, maybe you could do a little research next time!!

Huh? You must be kidding? You really don't think this way, do you?

Hmm interesting way to look at it. Problem is I can speak for myself when I got into minis.. the people I thought I could trust the people I was doing research with (local breeders as well as those online) were really all out to sell me a horse period. So they gave advice which amounted to oh dont by there horse is is junk but mine now mine is wonderful.

Many people were dishonest from the get go again making it hard to find true breeders who care.

I have the totally opposite experience when looking at dogs and talking to local breeders and those out of my area. They in fact discourage me from buying just yet, encourage me to really look and openly and gladly tell me hey this isnt the breed for you or I dont have exactly what you are looking for. NOt saying all horse breeders are dishonest and all dog breeders arent.. that would be silly.

Just saying that when a majority of the breeders might not be true horse people or have had much horse experience at all (which I find with our smaller breed) they dont really know the correct advice to mentor even when they want to be honest and ethical.

Rachel I am not understanding your posts.. How can a horse be lower quality and correct enough to breed at the same time? If a horse has proper conformation then I dont see why anyone would call it low quality. It has nothing to do with the price paid nor the papers I think many are getting confused here on the two things.

I guess I dont understand that your main point is dont breed animals with poor conformation yet dont frown on lower quality horses in a breeding program?

Not picking on you honest I just truly dont understand.

I also dont see why it is assumed that if you show.. your horses arent pets? I show my horses and I love them as well. They get treats daily are spoiled rotten (ok I admit that) and are always loved on daily isnt that what those of you who are saying you have your "pets" do? Showing them doesnt make me love them any less, nor treat them any different. Kinda off topic a bit but I am always confused when it is implied you either show your horse or love your horse.

 

[horsehug]

Rachel K,

I do understand what you are saying.

Like you say, it is not about not breeding for good conformation. And I totally agree that MANY times the price of an animal has NOTHING to do with conformation.

I have a small farm and do raise registered minis, but I have a few friends who raise a few unregistered ones each year and find GOOD homes for them with truly loving families who simply want one for a pet. And I am talking nice foals with good conformation, even if it is not the super long pencil thin neck or other things that might make them National champs in the trends of today. But for one reason or another they do not have access to papers. And so they are sold more affordably.

I am all for those people who want to show, or for other reasons to only breed registered stock. But I also truly do know personally of totally good circumstances where NICE unregistered minis are bred and the resulting foals go on to very good happy lives.

Susan O.

 

[Rachel K]

Sorry to be confusing. By lower quality I mean that the quality isn't what you see in the show rings yet the horses are still nice animals with decent conformation. Poor quality I see as animals with under bites, or other big faults that are at risk of passing onto their foals.

And I didn't mean that show animals aren't pets. What I was trying to say is that I want a Miniature Horse as a pet only.

 

[Mona]

But Susan...unregistered does not nessesarily equal lower quality. It may make the horse less expensive, but the quality remains untouched, whether papered or not.

I think perhaps Rachel is confusing the term lower price with lower quality.

:

Sorry to be confusing. By lower quality I mean that the quality isn't what you see in the show rings yet the horses are still nice animals with decent conformation. Poor quality I see as animals with under bites, or other big faults that are at risk of passing onto their foals.

And I didn't mean that show animals aren't pets. What I was trying to say is that I want a Miniature Horse as a pet only.

But if you wanted it as a pet only, then you would not want it for breeding. There IS a difference. I am not saying you cannot breed a horse, but first you say you want it as a pet only, but then you say you want to breed it, so that is mixed information.

 

[horsehug]

Mona,

Maybe "I" am the one who is confused! haha It won't be the first time!

The way I read it, (Maybe I was reading between the lines ....... I understood Rachel to say what you just said..... and I agree.

Unregistered does not mean lower quality, but it can mean a lower price for a Nice and correct animal.

Susan O.

 

[Rachel K]

I want a miniature horse as a pet right now but if its a filly or mare I might want to breed her in the years to come. I would probably keep the foal as another pet though for myself rather then sell it.

 

[susanne]

Rachel,

As the owner of two minis who were rescued, I would ask that before you breed, that you look at some of the many delightful, loving, healthy minis in need of adoption.

Why bring another life into the world when there are so many in danger of leaving it far too early?

 

[fantacsix]

[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]

I agree. I only have a few mares and one stallion. I don't want to over breed but breed for quality. I have bought so many stallions and mares in this last year from photos (far away places) and when I finally get a chance to fully evaluate them, it may be small stuff, cause they were extremely nice horses but they just weren't breeding quality to me. I don't get mad at the people who breed 1-2 unreg mares once in a while but I do not agree with the huge "herds". Breeding anything is actually science and luck. You get quality, comformation, attitude and pedigree and color might help. The first three are the most important. But after a few foal crops you can see if these horses out produce themselves. Our goal is to preserve and better the breed.
Another problem not mentioned is all of the pet, over breeding, or accidents are causing the market to go down. Minis of quality, even for a pet, can't compete with the, "too many horses got to sell cinario." They still sit at your place because people are always looking for that bargain. (I am one of them too. But I refuse to breed inferior!!) Whether you are selling a pet to a nice family just to get their kids started or to a show person it is still representing the breed as a whole. Allison

 

[nootka]

If I had a small herd of unregistered lower quality miniature horses that I took excellent care of, and bred responsibly then I don't see why anyone would get upset over that fact. I'm not breeding scum, I'm breeding lower quality unregistered horses that are affordable and can be bought and kept as pets or driving horses.

Ok, "bred responsibly" is the key term.

If truly, you only want beautiful pets, and aside from a birthing experience or two, why wouldn't you go rescue some of these horses going through auctions, some of them papered and even former champions in the ring in days not so far past (I've heard of it)?

I know this is what I would do if that was my goal.

There are so many of what you are describing out there for next to free. People who try to breed the very best quality (not going by show standards only by correctness) end up with an "oops" because anything can happen. For example, I know a big breeder that sent a very valuable, Multiple National Champ mare back East to be bred to a like version of herself in stallion form. Nothing dwarfy or odd about either horse, just nice animals with great potential.

Comes birthing time and the baby comes out with a deformed spine. The diagnosis was that it wasn't congenital, but a malposition in utero. So after determining prognosis this breeder decides to give him, unpapered, to a local family wanting a pet. Not to say that everyone should accept someone's "throwaways" but just an example of what's out there.

And there are people like me who breed what I think of as good quality, maybe not top, but able to go and show and not be totally laughed at, and I don't have the money to spend on promotion Nationally or advertise in the big magazines, and so my farm name is not known, so noone really looks my way and yes, there are times when I need the money and space (forbid I say there's no room to winter over all 8 of my horses so I must sell two but if I dont', guess what, they won't starve or be out in the cold), so I do discount down to almost laughable and making NO money at it.

Lucky that I'm not in it to make money. The bad thing is that the "pet" homes that I've sold to, with just a few exceptions, have turned out horribly. I mean beyond my nightmares.

I don't know if it was the cheap price or what, but I had some bad luck selling low to "good people wanting a pet to love."

Just my observations....

Liz M.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I heard this recently from a dog breeder and thought it was applicable to minis or cats or whatever animal anyone breeds.

She told me in the reality of a dog breeder if they're truly honest with themselves they will realize that the majority of their puppies will end up in a pet homes. This is why many dog breeders (at least the reputable ones) will only sell on a spay/neuter contract.

A recent debate on a dog list also was about how many times a stud or bitch should be used - the average was about 6 times (so 18-50 puppies maximum), as it was felt more breedings would be too much influence on the breeding pool of dogs. A reputable breeder would only consider maybe one or two puppies from each litter as show/breed quality too. This is still alot of influence for a dog or bitch.

So think of that - the majority of our foals will end up as pets. The majority are not shown and regardless of quality will never make it into a show ring for whatever reason.

Unfortunately too many of them will make it into a breeding herd - so that does NOT relieve a breeder - ANY BREEDER - from the responsiblity of breeding as correct of a mini as possible!

Correct, beautiful, gorgeous minis can be lovely pets. To breed horses with problems, not flaws, but defects is really wrong!

A slightly long head is a flaw. An off bite, stifle problems, dwarf characteristics, bad legs, thyroid problems(IMHO) are serious issues and however sweet that horse is, it shouldn't be used for breeding!

As for breeding unregistered minis as pets - I'm against that as well. Not that an unregistered mini can't be a wonderful pet, but what if something does happen to you and you need to sell your minis? Your precious minis if they're cheap enough and you have to sell them will end up in one of the mini mills! That is what those vultures prey on - the cheap mini that can churn out other low quality cheap minis. A registered decent quality mini will bring more than an unregistered mediocre quality mini.

I understand in certain parts of the country you have the disreputable types - there is one a few hours north of me in Oregon - make a buck, sells what is 'in fashion', lies, the horses are kept in dreadful conditions, there isn't a nice thing to say about those types as they materially damage all of us.

And many of those type do advertise on the Internet.

 

[nootka]

I wanted to add to this thread that the one I was referring to is the same one Michelle's referring to (probably the largest in this region that I'm aware of, somewhere on the order of 400 horses I would guess?).

And I'm not mad that they're using up my market. What makes me feel horrible is that when I go there these animals are skin and bone standing in 100 degree+ heat with NO SHADE and a mere few inches of BLACK, gooey water to "drink." They have what amounts to horrible bedding straw to eat and many have wounds or conditions needing tended. All have lice and worms galore.

Breeding is done with no care towards shape and form, but color and flash. Papers are an afterthought and even on their site they sell with the papers and late stallion reports/dna testing all being the new seller's responsibility and sell with applications kind of thing (stuff I would warn any newbie off of). What if the dna comes back wrong? Would YOU send your new friend back to heck b/c its daddy wasn't who you thought it was?

I think not and they know this!

They prey on the not so well-read/learned and the uninformed. I cant tell you how many stories I have heard stemming from this place as far as paperwork nightmares, health issues (they actually told the new buyer that the lice dust they used on a horse they bought from her caused a major impaction oh no, it wasn't the fact that the horse had never been wormed and had a HUGE wormload), etc. THESE THINGS make me embarassed and angry and frustrated. I often wonder how they stay in business yet I see repetitively that they have sold multiple horses per month, more horses than I have EVER sold. But, they have the color and in some cases even "micro minis" as they call them. Take a closer look....I see dwarfs being marketed as something else and I bet if AMHA gets the photos when someone went to register, they'd be turned down. Often these are only shown as foals.

Sorry this is a sore subject to me. This place and places like it (I know there's "twins" in other states/regions) have no business buying, selling and trading/breeding living animals. None whatsoever. I don't care if I could never sell another horse b/c they were breeding so many "beautiful pets" if they would just FEED, WORM, VACCINATE and choose the breedings more responsibly to avoid dwarfs (there were a huge percentage there).

Sorry to get so riled up. I feel I am in the ranks of "backyard breeder" as in it's a hobby, but I do try to keep my mind open to learn and see others' points of view. A horse does not need papers to be of value, but if it's going to have the job of breeding and creating new ones, it had first better be as serviceably sound as possible, and then it should have a potential need/want for it.

Liz M.

 

[Sonya]

Whoever thinks that mini mills are only a place where unregistered stock is being bred is sadly mistaken. I've been to a what I consider a mini mill and it was all registered horses, fancy website, advertised as "national" quality horses, etc....some of the horses were probably "good" quality if you could get past the conditions of them and their surroundings. This is a person who shows at the national level (of course those horses looked a little better, but their conditions were appauling too).

Believe me there are mini mills out there producing semi-expensive registered horses too. Just because someone is producing non registered minis, does not make them a mini mill. IMO it's more the condition of the horses and how they are treated that makes it a mini mill. Just because someone has registered stock with half descent bloodlines who shows doesn't always means they should be breeding minis.

 

[anita]

Its that simple

Many horses many people...........................

May we all should start seminars on our ranch

Anita

Little Texas Miniature Horses

Sulphur Springs TX

Its that simple

Many horses many people........................... and some shouldn't given a horse in their hands.

We should start seminars on our ranch. Some ranches can do it in team.

Anita

Little Texas Miniature Horses

Sulphur Springs TX

 

[nicole]

O.K everyone very well said. :aktion033: :aktion033:

There have been several posts so I am going to try and discuss all,

This Mini Mill I am refering to is getting out of unregistered minis for they must feel there is no money in them.

So instead they buy all registered horses and flood our market with junk, and yes they are breeding whatever to whatever. Some have genetics flaws that should never be bred(That ticks me off right there)

Some poor person is going to buy the foal from this mare and end up with problems which will cost them more money in vet bills to help the horse, or they may just pawn it off on someone else

IF you know your horse has a genetic flaw DO NOT SELL THIS HORSE TO ANOTHER BREEDER!!!!

Be responsible, I know it may be impossible to control a mare from not being bred. But sell without papers or look into spaying. I don't know maybe train her to drive (if capable) and sell her as a pet for driving.

Just keep the mare until you feel confident in someone who is willing to keep as a pet.

These horses at this Mini Mill are in bad shape, a 2year old colt out with yearlings. Well what do you think may happen there???

NO hay!! so skinny I was just so upset. My tongue was so sore by the time I left there.

:

Now about the unregistered thing, well I used to own one a really nice gelding. He was rescued and boy oh boy he was gorgeous. But I sold him to a farm that just love him to peices. I sold if him for under $1000.00 and worth every penny to the people that bought him. They show him at local fairs and the kids are having a blast.

NO, I would not have bred him, yes, he was gorgeous and did come from parents with papers but the breeder did not do the paper work. I was a responsible owner and made sure he went to the right home.

I have in the past refused sales, yes, the people were mad but I went to their home and was not comfortable with the place.

BUt that being said I sold this mare a year later to a really nice lady who loved this mare, the mare died a year later from giving birth.

Nicole

 

[rabbitsfizz]

OK I'm going to be Mrs Unpopular again

There is NO point in breeding unregistered stock.

That's it.

I am NOT saying there is no point in unregistered animals- stuff happens, papers get lost.

There is no point in breeding them.

They are not cheaper- how on EARTH could they possibly be cheaper to breed??

Why on EARTH would anyone think they would be cheaper to breed, raise and sell??

Registering a horse costs relatively little and the fact that it has or does not have papers has no bearing on how much the resultant foal will cost, only on how much it would be worth!!

So, buy a few nice mares, maybe invest in a very nice stallion, get all the paperwork in order and breed a few nice foals.

Those foals will cost exactly the same to breed, raise and sell as the unregistered ones, and there is absolutely NO reason why they cannot be sold as pets.

Why would you set out to breed pets??

If I breed a litter of Dobes I am going to get eight healthy puppies.

I can guarantee you that seven of them will go as pets.

Why would I breed second rate stock, why, indeed when I was looking for a pet would I accept second rate stock, when I can get show quality, papered animals and still have a really nice pet??

 

[MBennettp]

My Lady came from one of these breeders who buy registered mares and stallions and turn them out in a pasture to fend for themselves. He brought a load to Oklahoma from Nebraska and ran them through a local exotic auction that I just happened to attend. The only reason Lady was sold was because she got mixed in with the foals when he rounded them up so instead of taking her out, he just brought her too.

She had a cow tag in her ear with the color and number of the tag written on the top of her papers. She was infested with worms, wild as she could be, and has a lot of trust issues but I did outbid a breeder to get her.

The foals that were in with her were a sad little bunch. None had been handled at all, most had crooked legs and all had a huge belly that I figured was caused by the parasite load they were carrying.

This man made the comment to someone at the auction that he has over 300 horses in several states and anybody could do this, he said: "They're pretty hardy, they can take care of themselves, I lose a few foals but not a lot, just turn 'em out and then in the spring, round up the foals and sell 'em."

Poor Lady had a foal a year since she was 3 years old until I bought her. She has been open now for 2 years and hopefully she will be bred this year for her final foal. Her final foal will remain with us for life. I will breed her responsibly, I will care for the foal, and if something happens to us, my family will take care of my horses. I had not intended to breed her but she keeps trying to steal the foals from the neighbors mares and will stand by the fence for hours watching and calling to the foals.

I am well aware of her faults and have chosen a stallion with traits that will compliment her.

There are a lot of these mills out there, there is one that is a big name farm that I know of. They have a lot of mares and some nice stallions, the mares run with the stallions year round, foal alone in the pasture, they are fed hay but have no shelter except trees, look like they have never been de-wormed, their feet are terrible, their manes and tails are matted, just show no basic care. This farm does pull some of the better foals in and take care of them and show them, then sell them. The lesser quality ones are run through the nearest auction and dumped.

I think it is sad and wish there was a way to shut these people down but as long as there is a market, these people will continue with what they do.

Mary

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Mary, you just hit the nail firmly on the head- as long as people buy, they continue to have a market.

I see it in puppies- poor, ill bred scatty little objects, bought because they could not bear to leave it there, or because they were conned into believing that was what the pup was supposed to look like.

"I was "rescuing" it" is a constant plea as well.

If you want to rescue an animal- go to a rescue facility!!!

If you find animals in poor condition, call the Police!!!!