mini andalusian?

[Songcatcher]

And Rabbit, I'm not your sweetie, so please don't talk condescending to me like that

Chill Nathan. The term is often used by more mature (I did NOT say old) people to refer to younger people. I'm sure Jane meant no offense.

Jane, you can call me sweetie anytime. I will not take offense. (I do think you are just a tad older than me.)

 

[jlh]

I'm going to go out on a limb in this case, and guess that this was an AI breeding. I've certainly had a 34" mare foal out to a B stallion and have a baby who was nearly as tall in proportion as the andalusion pair- the filly might stay under 38", but we've got another year before final height.

that foaling was easy, out of an experienced mother with plenty of pelvis room to shoot out her longlegged offspring. this was probably the first of her foals to be observed in birthing, she usually is so fast that if you blink you've missed it. I'm thinking that the andalusian breeder is looking to introduce several breed specific characteristics in the cross, and while it wouldn't be my choice, i can see the economic sense of this cross.

those that know me may also know I'm not usually even going to consider a stallion over 32" unless he can provide something special to the mix. (I will, however, sell a 34" stallion in the hopes he'll be used for the right program.)

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

The term is often used by more mature (I did NOT say old) people to refer to younger people.

Nobody calls me sweetie, its a very condescenting term. Not my mother, not my grandmother, not my most revered female figure. I asked nicely, please do not use that term in reference to me.

 

[sdmini]

We have had foaling complications in the past, one on average a year for all families involved. Out of those there has not been one significant factor linking all or even the majority. Sometimes the sire was larger, sometimes smaller, some young, some old, some never before or again had problems while others we never again got in foal.

Granted sire and dam size is a prediction of what to expect, much like fortune telling. Knowing your bloodlines and their body style is a safer way to predict what you can and can not bred to.

We all know there are exceptions to the rule but no good ever came of bidding the exception rather than the rule. This does not mean I condom pairings such as the one above, really it is a complete turn off to me as I really don't understand the point. Nor do I think any Tom, Dick and Harry should feel comfortable breeding a significantly larger stallion to a mini. However on my farm I pay less attention to heights and more attention to body style and my opinion is based in my experience as well as conversations with several vets over the years.

I'm sure their are those that will say they have more experience than I and they are likely right but if we factor in my family even on the low ball average that is 50 foals over 30 years that's 1,500 foals.

:

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Good Grief Nathan the more I learn the less I think there is likely to be anyone who would want to call you that!!!

You really do need to get down off your high horse and relax a bit , you know!!

Forgive, me please for trying to be friendly.

Rest assured I shall not bother trying again.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

while we all know what a c-section is I am sure that what kay was talking about is something I to have witnessed and hope not to do so again.

A c-section to remove a foal be it live or dead is one thing.. watching a vet have to cut up a foal in order to get it out of the mare meaning cutting of limbs and head is a whole other thing to witness.

Now all of that said I am not sure where I stand on this issue. I mean large horses have also had dystocias due to foals being to large. So yes in that case I do see what you are saying about not being a huge increase in the risk.

It isnt something I would choose as personally if I felt the n eed to do this type of a cross I would do it the other way around with a small stallion and large mare.

That said I have bred a larger stallion to a smaller mare and dont believe in the 1 in height difference allowed. Most of my breeding mares are 34 and over and would have no issue breeding them to a 38 in stallion. For me the key isnt just the height but the build of both the mare and the stallion as well. I have a few mares who I waited until they were 5 to breed simply due to the fact they are refined and I wanted to be sure they were mature enough physically

 

[~Palomino~]

Well if you click on his page you can see a picture of his mom by a tramp, I have the same tramp and my mare Magic is only 29.5" and she can EASLEY fit under there, so I am betting this mare is a little bit bigger then a miniature horse. . .

Gage

 

[Bess Kelly]

For years I specialized in only 28" & unders. Carefully I looked at all backgrounds!!! While there have been a few dystocias, most were at a time when we had fescue grass-- WOW!! NEVER AGAIN. At this time there was one mare who had a foal so large she could not have passed it -- CSection -- it took 2 vets to lift the foal out! Foal dead, mare fine and rebred, has foaled nicely since. The sire to this foal was 3" shorter, finely built and small background. The reason for the size was the fescue issue. A couple mares had dystocias that year, most aborted early enough to not have issues with size. One dystocia which required a C was a hiplock and head/neck bent to side, just not in correct delivery position or it would have passed (again, same fescue year).

OK, onward -- having many of these small mares my concern was to use the stallion who threw the small, refined type foal consistently, for their first foal. After that, I used some who were as much as 31-32" with 27" mares and had no problems with the foalings.

In my entire experience with breeding minis, I have had only ONE mare who just couldn't get the pelvic bones to move to foal. That foal did have to be removed via dismembering. Mare was not re-bred. Another foal I had to remove via dismember, early delivery (aborted) and not in position.....1 hr attempt to reposition didn't work. This was not pleasant but, far easier on the mare than a C-section. Foal was already lost and mare is fine & foaling well. I used to keep about 45-50 broodmares and foaled out about 30 a year. There's the occassional bent leg, bent head but overall, they foal nicely. I did lose a mare 3 years ago due to an upside down breach, but the main reason I had to have her put down was that she prolapsed rectally and it was not from a foal foot....just weak tissue. So paying for a C was not going to get her out of the situation otherwise it would have been done.

SO -- while I personally do not advocate the breeding of full-sized stallions to minis, I cannot find any issues with the stallions which have been sires to some tiny mares I have bought in foal.....was concerned but, all went nicely. Personally the refinement of bone and head is more of a concern than height in my selection of crosses to my mini mares. I, too, believe that most mares will carry a size that can be delivered.

So many of the foal losses can be from other than the mares ability to get it out. And, looking back at all the facts, many times the loss of the mare is from foaling issues other than the foal being a size that can come out. Oh, there are those whose foals are just too big but, a higher percentage have resulted from damage during birthing (including ruptured blood vessels), retained placenta, infections, hyperlipemia,etc.

EVERY breeder must weight the delight in a new life with the possible effect on the birth mother. It's also a situation that should command preparedness and having done your homework to get the best results. There are times when that fails, too.......like my mare three years ago, RIP Candy. It haunts me still.

Certainly this is why the issue of "size" is so emotional.

 

[mondak]

I will have to agree with Nathan in that I see no problem with this cross. The mother is not a TINY mini, in fact she looks rather tall, not much under 13hh, and the stud is 15hh. This also does not look like an uneducated breeding operation and I am sure that they consulted the vet before proceding with it. I actually am excited to see that people are taking innovative sets in the mini lines. You have to remember that if the people before us hadn't introduced larger breeds into the shetland lines, there would be NO miniature horse. As for the question "why".....why not??? The Andalusian breed is a very athletic horse and I think that with the slow introduction of superior breeds like the Andalusian it will only help to make the miniature horse to become more conformationally and athletically superior. I personally cannot wait to see this fad of exagerated refinement pass.

Courtney

JMHO, no flames please, did not post this to anger anyone, just to provide another side to the argument...

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I thought the mare was around 13hh too, but, then, why would they say she is a Mini??

Also, if you look again you will see a picture of her with the foal and a person and she is definitely larger than a Mini but much smaller than a pony.

In all the years I bred Arabs I lost ONE foal, ONE that is all - the possibility did not even occur to me, before that.

Minis have a track record of dystocias- for whatever reason.

Andalusians, I think a pretty heavy animals- hefty at the least.

I have crossed larger horses on small mares, Welsh and Welsh bred mares and had no trouble and nice results but once you start upping the height and changing the breed you tend to leave the problems behind.

Welsh have little track record of problems foaling, for a start.

No, this is not a cross I would do, nor one I have ANY idea why anyone would do it anyway, and I stand by what I have said- IMO the size of the mare does not govern the size of the foal, except within the obvious bounds in that the foal does not actually burst the uterus- I think that is obvious??

I thought about this last night - the problem is that the foals grow too big to be passed maybe we are arguing at cross purposes here??

I just thought it was obvious that a foal could not grow bigger than the insides of the mare

There was every chance that that could have happened in the case of the Andalusian X Pony mare- and every chance it could yet happen.

 

[horsesmakeubroke]

Hi folks

We stand several stallions (all horses apart form a 14.2 Arab) at stud. We advise against covering a mare that was for than 2 hands smaller than the stallion, even though 90% of our cover is by AI. I know in Ireland, there are a lot of people covering small pony mares (12.2 - 13.2) to much larger horse stallions in an effort to breed 14.2 jumping ponies. With natural cover, there is also a significant risk of internal damange to the mare caused by the larger stallion, not to mention oversized foals. It doesn't take an unusally enormous foal to cause foaling problems in a mare. Rabbit is right, the deaths of mares is not widely publicised.

 

[Little Wee Horse Farm]

Ok, so a 13 hand equine is about 62 inches at the whithers, if the standard of 4 inches per hand is used. If the mare was 13H, then she would be about 62 inches. That's WAY different from a mini, since the top height is 38 inches, or 9-1/2 hands. A difference of TWO FEET! It was stated, however, that this was a tiny mini, setting us off. I think the thing is that on the forum, we know what a "tiny" mini is.

If we had known this, there wouldn't probably be much discussion. But say "mini" and Andalusion & my hackles go up automatically! If we had but known, this discussion would be non-existant, I believe.

 

[wcr]

The vet group I use are very knowledgeable and I am lucky to have them. They adopted several of the PMU mares that were paint or Norwegians bred to draft stallions. They are vets and helped each other out but every foaling they had out of these mares resulted in the loss of foal, mare or both. Very bad experience for them. Why risk our minis who have a higher incidence of foaling problems. Not my cup of tea.

 

[chandab]

Ok, so a 13 hand equine is about 62 inches at the whithers, if the standard of 4 inches per hand is used. If the mare was 13H, then she would be about 62 inches.

Not to be too picky, but your math is a little off... A 13 hand horse is about 52" tall (13*4=52).

But still a 14" difference which is a significant difference.

 

[Little Wee Horse Farm]

Oh Shoot! Math never was my best subject. And it was early in the morning when I tried such a complex & difficult calculation (yeah, right!) Thanks for correcting me! Anyway, you get my point.

:

 

[HGFarm]

It seems that a dystocia is from the foal being turned in the wrong position, thus making it unable to be born by natural methods alone. However, I am sure that from a very large foal, it may not be able to position correctly due to lack of room to turn? I lost my favorite full sized mare to this problem and I know of a couple of Mini breeders who have had to have foals cut up and removed that way. They were quite large.

With the issues we already have in Minis and problems foaling, I would certainly not want to increase the already high risk with something like this. I dont even want to go see the website.

As far as 'ponies' go- they are allowed to go up to 14 hands. I have seen MANY POA crosses- and Quarter ponies too that were between ponies and small full sized horses.

I think people really need to use common sense- I guess some folks were out eating at McDonald's when they passed that out and didnt get any.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

It seems that a dystocia is from the foal being turned in the wrong position, thus making it unable to be born by natural methods alone.

No, a foal in that position (no pun intended) will be in dystocia, yes, but that's not the only meaning. The term "dystocia" means "trouble giving birth", and can range from a malpositioned hoof all the way to a breech delivery or a fetatomy (cutting up of the fetus to facilitate removal). Even red bag is a dystocia. Its a VERY broad term.

 

[Paintedgates]

hello, I dont really have much to say except, I just think the breeder should know the horses and be careful when breeding. Anyway to the point I am posting, I wrote to the lady ( all else go to the source to find the right info) I asked height of mare and how big did she think the foal was going to get this is what she wrote back. ""Mini me`s" dam is about 10 hands. I feel this little girl will get to about 12-13 hands. It is funny as the half brother to this filly was by a 29" mini jack and they where born the same size and wieght. The mini mule is about 10 hands." Some time peopel have small ponies and call them mini because they do not know better. The pony is small than their other horses so there for it is a mini. jmo

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

I would hope that the breeding was AI (artificial insemination). I'd be concerned about the stallions large size hurting a small mare.

Tammie

 

[mini me sc]

Hello, for fear of being jumped on I would think that before anyone ever jumps to any conclusions they should ALWAYS go to the source before assuming anything.

I am the owner of the "miniature Andalusian" filly you are all talking about.

First, I do not do my own website and don`t regularly view it. I give my friend and the person who does my website any information. In regards to the "miniature" mare, Luminata, I will have to go out and measure her for the true height. She was bought from a Reg. Miniature breeder, a mistake when he turned a fresh cut gelding back out with his open mares. He sold her knowing she would be used in our program.

Second, before replying to my post please read, and maybe read again what I am writing. Not to be rude but sometimes people only read what they want to read and don`t take posts for what they are meant to be. This is natural. Now, NONE of you have to agree with what I am doing.

The breeder of Luminata is also on this site and he brought it to my attention that this is going on so I will not use his name but I will say he has sold Miniature horses all over the US and Canada. I love his little girls. However, I have also assisted him in delivering foals from smaller, 32" (?) mares that had been bred to a 30 inch and 32" stallions.

Bare with me as I am not a good typer and may "jump" around a bit. The main reason I am doing this cross is to produce Sport Horse ponies as TOO MANY children are "over horsed" and I have also seen TOO many over sized mini`s sold at auction because they where "too tall" for the breeders programs.

I do not encourage this at all, the auction thing or the breeding.

IN FACT I discourage ALL breeding with any sized horse! I believe before ANY stud be used he should be broke to ride and or drive.Meaning NO breeding with anything under 4 years of age unless under saddle to prove they have the conformation and dispostion with a gentle and strong work ethic and nature. Mini`s make lovely driving horses and I have bought at auction and resold AS driving, non-breeding animals, 9 or 10, not many. Mares, ALL mares should be vet checked to make sure they have a clean, well formed pelvic area and health uterus. I also believe that no mare should be breed without a clear cut plan for the resulting foal. To breed just to produce a foal is, to me, in MY opinion, a good reason NOT to breed. You don`t breed JUST to get that cute little baby ( even if it`s from a 18 hand mare), you breed with the purpose of producing a horse that will be a performance horse. Riding or Driving. I don`t breed for foals but for using, working HORSES. I have been breeding horses since 1979. Not long compared to some of you but long enough. I have had only trouble with one birth. A mare I had rescued, she was thin and tried foaling 2 days after she came home..before she could get vet checked. The foal was upside down and backwards. He was not cut out but was gently pushed forwards to cup the hind legs in place to gently pull. The only other horse in with that mare was a very eager shetland guy. Mare 16 hands, stud not even to my hips ( I`m 5`8).

Luminata`s first foal was by a 29" spotted jack. In the pix you can clearly see that there is no size difference. I think this filly was 2 lbs heaver tough and then this years colt was again, the same size as what the mini mule was when he was born. The mule has not grown since last year. Mini me has! Please also note, I do NOT approve of keeping mares in small areas and maybe that is why my mares, small ( maybe 9hands?) and large ( 17.2) have their foals with in 15 minutes, from tail up to placenta out. No help except for me taking video and of course tummy buttons and sex check. Our smallest pasture is 100 acres.

Would I suggest anyone cross a larger stud to a smaller mare? heck no! But like I said I wouldn`t suggest a person breed a larger mare to a smaller stud unless the mare was Completely checked out. NOTE: a mare, with little exercise, like a woman, will have a uterus that isn`t as firm or if you prefer, as fit as mares (ladies) that are used or get exercise.LOL. Sorry I don`t mean women "used". Have some humor here please. Hey, I have 4 kids. I popped them out but I`m always on the go. I also have mares that have been foaling for 15 years, every year, no missed dates, catch on one breeding. These mares are used for driving and riding, they get fat, yes but not "foal bellied". I am not a mini expert and don`t pretend to be. My mini friend admits that the mini`s are more prone to foaling problems as many breeders just try to breed smaller and smaller. It`s the same with breeders trying to breed bigger. You MUST have a plan, look at your genetics and any faults that can be passed on like dwarfism and OCD, parrot mouth, ewe neck, pigeon toe, etc, IS to be breed out, by just NOT Breeding.

Oh, although Mini-me might get to 12 hands ( I hope) her full brother might get to the mini mules height. The stud used ground collects so breeding is done using a roller and I don`t have to AI. Now you experienced breeders know what I mean by a roller so I don`t have to explain it.

Oh, sorry about saying Miniature, to me, they are not REGISTERED Miniature horses but "miniature horses"..kind of like saying your horse is QH or Appy because of build and spotting...I do not make reference to them being from registered stock although Lumi is from a reg. mare and her sire was a reg. "gelding".

As to the one ladies comments on out tribute to Sissy. Why persume the mare was dead in the photographs? The vet was right there, this was Sissy`s LAST foal and she and Merlin had a super close bond. How could I NOT let the baby and Sissy`s mate say good-bye to her? Sissy`s momma died when she was 3 weeks of age. She ran around in a pasture some 1000acres big until she was found as a 3 year old. They knew her as she was micro chipped when she was turned out with her dam and 30 other mares. We had a miniature ( see farm gallery) that looked like a "MINI-Sissy". I bought that mare, 28" as a pet, knowing she could die any time becasue of an enlarged heart, she was NEVER bred but as sweet as the day is long. She died,heart attack, last year. 6 years old. My son got her when they where both 3 years old. His Uncle died 2 weeks before she did, and Olie was with her as he was his Uncle. He cried, yes but said "Now Uncle Paul has Mystic to eat his carrots in haven so God wont give him heck!..he needs her more then me because I like carrots!" Maybe I sound uncaring to let my youngest son ( other kids are 18-14) "go" through this, but he knows she was sick, like his Uncle Paul ( who was, by the way 82..more of a third cousin to Olie) and he knew God had plans for them in heavens. "You just have to close your eyes and you can see them there beside you and always feel them with you in your heart."

FYI. GAIA< the daughter of Sissy and Merlin will not tease to her sire nor will he tease her. He`ll tease his other daughters for us but not Gaia. Merlin will also not tease through the fence our 29" mini mare ( she has papers somewhere, I lost them), nor in hand. I would not breed her to him either.

Sorry for this long but I would perfer to find out what everbody does with their little guys/gals and why/how did they get them so small? I`ve seen some that where "mini horses!" and some, just ugly! (cute ugly though<G>)