This doesn't seem physically possible, but a canadian andalusian breeder (swan creek), has a foal on their pages that is supposed to have a mini (no registry notated) dam, and an andalusian sire. He IS pretty big in relation to the mare.... ouch!
mini andalusian?
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Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
I've seen someone breed a tiny pony mare to an 18hh warmblood... it was disturbing, but that's what the owner wanted. Luckily the mare decides the foal's size, not the sire. Also luckily people must have been nearby when she foaled... I'm not jealous! I've seen enough problems with big horses, not interested in seeing them in minis. Eek... But yeah, plenty of people do that.
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
Nathan I am sorry, we always seem to be at odds- please it is nothing personal
The fact of the mare dictating the size of the foal is one of th oldest myths in the book and in no way should it be taken as "gospel" in a situation that might affect the mares life.
It is based on a study that is now nearly a hundred years old and involved Percherons and standard (ie 42" + ) Native Shetland Mares, which themselves look like small Draught horses.
The study does not state how many of the mares died giving birth.
In those days if you were a professor and you had a camera to provide pictures what you said went in the books!!!
Everyone, myself included, has stories of mares caught by accident by much larger stallions and giving birth without problems.
Come to this Forum in the Spring when foaling starts and people start losing foals to too big foal, dystocia etc and tell me then that the mare governs the size of the foal.
Not true, I am afraid, sadly, not true.
The fact of the mare dictating the size of the foal is one of th oldest myths in the book and in no way should it be taken as "gospel" in a situation that might affect the mares life.
It is based on a study that is now nearly a hundred years old and involved Percherons and standard (ie 42" + ) Native Shetland Mares, which themselves look like small Draught horses.
The study does not state how many of the mares died giving birth.
In those days if you were a professor and you had a camera to provide pictures what you said went in the books!!!
Everyone, myself included, has stories of mares caught by accident by much larger stallions and giving birth without problems.
Come to this Forum in the Spring when foaling starts and people start losing foals to too big foal, dystocia etc and tell me then that the mare governs the size of the foal.
Not true, I am afraid, sadly, not true.
Vicky Texas
Well-Known Member
Okay, I went and found the web site and here is the link...
http://www.swancreekandalusians.ca/
I so do not feel that a mini mare should be bred to these big horses. It is so heart
breaking to see. The foal is on 2006 foals page. I also went on the page for Tribute
to Sissy, this page is very heart breaking, a loss of a mare. But the pictures are so
heart breaking towards the bottom. They put pictures of her after she died, and other
horses saying goodbye. Just to much for me.
Vicky
http://www.swancreekandalusians.ca/
I so do not feel that a mini mare should be bred to these big horses. It is so heart
breaking to see. The foal is on 2006 foals page. I also went on the page for Tribute
to Sissy, this page is very heart breaking, a loss of a mare. But the pictures are so
heart breaking towards the bottom. They put pictures of her after she died, and other
horses saying goodbye. Just to much for me.
Vicky
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
It does say at the bottom she is a small pony mare- I wonder how big she really is??
I just cannot understand some people, though!!
I just cannot understand some people, though!!
Minimor
Well-Known Member
Actually the one study was done--not sure how many years ago--at one of the US universities, using 20-some "small Shetland" mares & breeding them to draft stallions, and all the mares foaled without difficulties.
Since we hear of Mini mares being bred to smaller stallions & still having foaling problems (that is, foal too large) and since I've know of large breed horse mares having foals which were too large for them to foal (not bred to larger draft stallions either) it's apparent there are risks involved in breeding whatever the sizes.
I wouldn't personally breed Mini/small pony mares to large horse breed stallions, but surprisingly it seems to work for most who do it.
Since we hear of Mini mares being bred to smaller stallions & still having foaling problems (that is, foal too large) and since I've know of large breed horse mares having foals which were too large for them to foal (not bred to larger draft stallions either) it's apparent there are risks involved in breeding whatever the sizes.
I wouldn't personally breed Mini/small pony mares to large horse breed stallions, but surprisingly it seems to work for most who do it.
Little Wee Horse Farm
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My question would be: WHY???? Perhaps mixing two established breeds is like breeding to get a "designer dog," but when the size difference is so great, would a sane person cross a Great Dane stud to a Chihuahua bitch? It might be ok to mix breeds (horse or dog or cats) of COMPARABLE size. This seems to be just an experiment or a joke (at any rate for some human benefit), but it could have ended in death for mare & foal. So, it is sad to me.
And Nathan, it has been proven to be a myth that the mare alone decides the size of unborn foal. If it were so, we as mini breeders would need take no care in choosing breedings. But, we all know we must be VERY careful indeed.
No, it doesn't make me jealous. It makes me sick. ALMOST anyone would know, if you were trying to downsize a breed, that if it is at all possible, it must be done slowly over generations. You don't start with the greatest difference & hope for success, possibly at the price of the mare's life. I hate this post!
No, it doesn't make me jealous. It makes me sick. ALMOST anyone would know, if you were trying to downsize a breed, that if it is at all possible, it must be done slowly over generations. You don't start with the greatest difference & hope for success, possibly at the price of the mare's life. I hate this post!
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
I wonder if you did a breeding trial with a group of pony mares and pony stallions, vs pony mares and draft stallions, if the dystocia rate would be similar. Everyone knows that mini mares have a MUCH higher risk of birthing problems, but that doesn't mean that the mare doesn't dictate foal size.
Its not a wives tale, hehe. If so, the mares would explode, not just have dystocia.
K
kaykay
Guest
HI Nathan
When you have bred miniature mares for a few years check back with us
I agree with Rabbit that saying the size of the foal is determined by the mare is a big wives tale. Kinda like the one that when a minis tail hits the ground its done growing LOL.
I have a good friend that lost one of her best mares from a foal that was HUGE. Both the mare and foal died. I also have friends that had to have foals CUT OUT as there was no way they could deliver the foal as it was too big. I hope you never ever hear the sound of the saw cutting a foal out of a mare, but if you ever do you will no longer believe that myth.
Kay
When you have bred miniature mares for a few years check back with us
I have a good friend that lost one of her best mares from a foal that was HUGE. Both the mare and foal died. I also have friends that had to have foals CUT OUT as there was no way they could deliver the foal as it was too big. I hope you never ever hear the sound of the saw cutting a foal out of a mare, but if you ever do you will no longer believe that myth.
Kay
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
I have video from the C-section I watched: want to see?
My POINT, if people see it, is that there isn't a huge INCREASE in risk for a mini/mini vs mini/horse cross. Yes, mini's have a huge chance of dystocia (I've carried enough dying mares into the hospital out of trailers after the owners watched them struggle for 6 hours, or found them in the morning still struggling). But my experience with minis is breeding them to horses, and I haven't seen a huge problem in the limited numbers I've seen. My point is there is a low INCREASE of risk. The risk already is high. The wives tale in this case is true, sorry. Same for horse/draft crosses, and pony/draft crosses.
My POINT, if people see it, is that there isn't a huge INCREASE in risk for a mini/mini vs mini/horse cross. Yes, mini's have a huge chance of dystocia (I've carried enough dying mares into the hospital out of trailers after the owners watched them struggle for 6 hours, or found them in the morning still struggling). But my experience with minis is breeding them to horses, and I haven't seen a huge problem in the limited numbers I've seen. My point is there is a low INCREASE of risk. The risk already is high. The wives tale in this case is true, sorry. Same for horse/draft crosses, and pony/draft crosses.
Little Wee Horse Farm
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Nathan - I see by your website that you are quite learned in equine reproduction. Excuse me, but I've had actual experience breeding large & small equine for decades. I respectfully disagree with your position.
It seems with big equine, you can breed a mare to a larger stud with minimal complications. With the minis, if a much larger stud is used, the mare can have great difficulty delivering that foal. No, I don't believe it will grow larger than the uterus can accomodate, but I do believe it can grow larger than birth canal can accomodate.
Sorry, I beg to differ with your stance. I have educated myself as much as possible without attending university & obtaining degrees in equine studies. To me, where horses are concerned, experience and the knowledge that comes with it, counts a whole lot too. I'm not implying that your education and experience would not qualify you to make such an observation, only that those with much direct experience with miniatures may look at it in a slightly different light.
I understand your use of the term INCREASE in risk. I still disagree. I believe there is an increase, yes. But I also believe it is a big increase in risk, (of breeding large stud to small mare) due the the statements I made above. Your thots?
Whew! Is it getting hot in here?
It seems with big equine, you can breed a mare to a larger stud with minimal complications. With the minis, if a much larger stud is used, the mare can have great difficulty delivering that foal. No, I don't believe it will grow larger than the uterus can accomodate, but I do believe it can grow larger than birth canal can accomodate.
Sorry, I beg to differ with your stance. I have educated myself as much as possible without attending university & obtaining degrees in equine studies. To me, where horses are concerned, experience and the knowledge that comes with it, counts a whole lot too. I'm not implying that your education and experience would not qualify you to make such an observation, only that those with much direct experience with miniatures may look at it in a slightly different light.
I understand your use of the term INCREASE in risk. I still disagree. I believe there is an increase, yes. But I also believe it is a big increase in risk, (of breeding large stud to small mare) due the the statements I made above. Your thots?
Whew! Is it getting hot in here?
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K
kaykay
Guest
nathan c sections are great but not at all the same as what i am talking about. Not many owners can get a mare already in labor and struggling to a hospital for a csection before she and the foal both die. Since you know about foaling you have to know that minutes count. Not everyone lives by an equine hospital. I am lucky that i am fairly close to one. But it would still take me at least an hour plus to get a mare there and that was if everything went perfectly.
Im just curious how many miniature mares you have foaled out that were bred to big horses? And Im not talking about ponies. Miniature mares!
Im just curious how many miniature mares you have foaled out that were bred to big horses? And Im not talking about ponies. Miniature mares!
littlearab
Well-Known Member
:no: I'm no expert by any means. But last year ,I had a mare who has having foaling problems. After what seemed like hours. We found a vet who was around(long story
). He was not my normal vet so did not know us at all. But said to bring her asap.
The first thing that vet asked when we unloaded her and saw her was "Ok what he!! did you bred her too? I'm sick to death of you people breeding your kids ponies to a QH stud to get that perfect mid sized pony. And killing the mare." After telling him she was bred to a mini stud,he calmed down.
He did save the mare after an hour and 1/2 of hard work...
So IMHO and in that equine vets mind with many years experince the idea that it's Ok to bred a much larger stallion to a much smaller mare is an old wise tale it is foolish.
Even when breeding cattle.... If it were true that the female decides the size of the baby there would not be birth wieghts listed for every bull sold and the ones born smaller bring much higher prices..
And it not apples and oranges .... it mare and cows.... or any animal...
). He was not my normal vet so did not know us at all. But said to bring her asap.The first thing that vet asked when we unloaded her and saw her was "Ok what he!! did you bred her too? I'm sick to death of you people breeding your kids ponies to a QH stud to get that perfect mid sized pony. And killing the mare." After telling him she was bred to a mini stud,he calmed down.
He did save the mare after an hour and 1/2 of hard work...
So IMHO and in that equine vets mind with many years experince the idea that it's Ok to bred a much larger stallion to a much smaller mare is an old wise tale it is foolish.
Even when breeding cattle.... If it were true that the female decides the size of the baby there would not be birth wieghts listed for every bull sold and the ones born smaller bring much higher prices..
And it not apples and oranges .... it mare and cows.... or any animal...
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Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
My goodness, you people delight in taking a random piece of trivia and turning it into a "I'm older than thou and therefore know better than you" comment. The people that bred that tiny pony (I don't remember how tall it was, but it was close to mini size if not actually a mini) had hired the region's premier reproduction vet, not some yahoo off the street. And I believe she's up to 20 years experience, I don't recall exactly. A c-section IS cutting the mare open to deliver the (in this case dead) foal.
Little Wee Horse Farm
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Hi Nathan -- That's not really it. We don't "delight" in it. You might have suspected that you might get a negative response from a group of serious miniature breeders. A smart performer always considers his audience. I'm sorry, I don't care who did it == I still don't like it. Frankenstein ( in Mary Shelley's book) was also a doctor, but I don't approve of his methods either. JMHO
K
kaykay
Guest
maybe we all need to take a deep breath
Nathan i feel bad that you feel picked on by the forum. Really dont at all want you to feel that way at all!! age has nothing to do with anything here. Experience does. I know you are working tword a repro degree but I think it bothers people to see you giving advice on foaling out miniature horses when you have no experience in it. It so different to breed and foal out mares every year then it is to work in a clinic and see an occassional miniature pass thru the door. Please keep in mind that we live eat and breathe this. Im on mare stare right now and am very worried that the foal has gotten too big for this mare to deliver. Because I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE that even breeding a small stallion to a small mare sometimes creats a foal that is too big to be delivered. Problem is that these guys were bred down not long ago so sometimes size comes back in a huge way when you least expect it.
Kay
Nathan i feel bad that you feel picked on by the forum. Really dont at all want you to feel that way at all!! age has nothing to do with anything here. Experience does. I know you are working tword a repro degree but I think it bothers people to see you giving advice on foaling out miniature horses when you have no experience in it. It so different to breed and foal out mares every year then it is to work in a clinic and see an occassional miniature pass thru the door. Please keep in mind that we live eat and breathe this. Im on mare stare right now and am very worried that the foal has gotten too big for this mare to deliver. Because I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE that even breeding a small stallion to a small mare sometimes creats a foal that is too big to be delivered. Problem is that these guys were bred down not long ago so sometimes size comes back in a huge way when you least expect it.
Kay
disneyhorse
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I really don't think any ethical breeder would recommend breeding a larger horse to a smaller mare, PARTICULARLY with the miniatures.
They are selectively bred to be smaller, so this artificial selection makes the breeding process more difficult. Thus you see problems in some dog breeds such as bulldogs and chihuahuas. They just can't birth as naturally as a wolf can. It's a man made problem.
Ethical breeders would never put their mare or foal at risk, for the health of the mare along with the financial and time lost as a mare carries only one baby for almost a year!
Andrea
They are selectively bred to be smaller, so this artificial selection makes the breeding process more difficult. Thus you see problems in some dog breeds such as bulldogs and chihuahuas. They just can't birth as naturally as a wolf can. It's a man made problem.
Ethical breeders would never put their mare or foal at risk, for the health of the mare along with the financial and time lost as a mare carries only one baby for almost a year!
Andrea
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
I can't actually see the point, anyway.
Why take the risk when you could use a nice Sec A Welsh mare, that much bigger (in most cases) and built to last??
Why on earth would anyone take the risk of the foal growing too large, as we are all only too aware it can.
Nathan I'm sorry, I did apologise at the beginning, I am NOT "picking" on you I am just correcting you when you trot out an adage that we all know to be incorrect.
It's the same as the Quest issue- it worries me that people come on here for advice and they may see someone saying that "so-and-so" is fine and dandy, when we know, from years of bitter experience, that it is not.
Please, Sweetie, open your mind, there is a whole world of experience on this Forum that you do not have.
Why take the risk when you could use a nice Sec A Welsh mare, that much bigger (in most cases) and built to last??
Why on earth would anyone take the risk of the foal growing too large, as we are all only too aware it can.
Nathan I'm sorry, I did apologise at the beginning, I am NOT "picking" on you I am just correcting you when you trot out an adage that we all know to be incorrect.
It's the same as the Quest issue- it worries me that people come on here for advice and they may see someone saying that "so-and-so" is fine and dandy, when we know, from years of bitter experience, that it is not.
Please, Sweetie, open your mind, there is a whole world of experience on this Forum that you do not have.
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Field-of-Dreams
Well-Known Member
A mare won't "grow" a foal larger than she can carry, but they DO grow larger than what can be foaled out. THAT'S the problem. They can't pass through the pelvis.
Personally, on my farm, no mare is bred to a stallion that is more than 1 inch larger than she is. We have seven stallions, so have a great choice. There is really no reason to breed to a larger stallion.
Lucy
Personally, on my farm, no mare is bred to a stallion that is more than 1 inch larger than she is. We have seven stallions, so have a great choice. There is really no reason to breed to a larger stallion.
Lucy
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
I did no such thing, I know better
And Rabbit, I'm not your sweetie, so please don't talk condescending to me like that
