Lost our first foal

[a mini dream come true]

I am so sorry for your losses. Terrible situation, but being raised in the country and knowing the problems with dogs that get the taste of blood, I agree with you on your dicission. Any farmer or rancher will tell you, once they taste blood, they will continue to do it.

 

[Taylor Richelle]

I am so sorry for your loss....but you did the right thing. I wouldn't have tried to find the dog a new home. What if it attacked a child or another small animal? Again I am sorry for both of your losses

((hugs))

 

[rabbitsfizz]

do you know anything about horses and dogs at all?

if you knew anything about them you would know that horses are herbivours and dogs are carnivours. in other words, horses eat foliage, dogs eat meat. horses attack dogs because they feel thretened, dogs attack because they think its food. want an example?

my mare Misty never minded being around dogs until my dog nipped her on the nose, drawing some blood. Ever since then she went after any dog thats dumb/brave enough to go into her pen. She does it out of fear and self preservation. The OP's dog did this because its obviously got a higher prey drive/kill instinct than normal, which is dangerous.

i had my dog for 13yrs before she bit my horse on the nose, does that mean its my fault my horse got bit? i've also seen mares comftorably give birth outside, even when given the option of birthing in a stall. ever hear of all day turnout or 24/7 turnout? its not healthy nor is it wise to keep mares stalled all day and night because they are pregnant.

IMO, if you have nothing nice to say then dont say nothin. otherwise you may risk getting in trouble.

Pot, meet kettle!

There you go again, young lady, giving advice you do not take yourself.

Please stop this, it is annoying and tiring and serves no purpose.

OK, I feel for the OP, I really do, this is just awful, but, I know, I would not have put the dog down.

I am every bit as emotionally involved with my dogs as I am with my horses, and my dogs just are not allowed near the horses on their own, it just does not happen.

I know that Sam will "chase" and, being a dog, he will not know this is no game to the horses, even though he is capable of playing with Rabbit (who keeps him in his place)

If I left him he would, I have no doubt, chase until he caused damage.

With me there or at least around (I do not have to be standing beside him) he does not chase, and he does no harm. IF and it is a huge "if" I were derelict in my vigilance, I am afraid I could not find it in my heart to blame my dog, let along euthanise him.

(And yes, strangely enough, I do know the difference between dogs and horses and am a certified Dog Behaviourist, to boot!)

I am sorry, I am not blaming you, Relic, and what's done is done. I cannot call it for you, it was your call, and the dog has not, after all, been hurt, Better this way than keeping her chained up, or giving her to a shelter where god knows what would happen to her, I am only telling you how I feel and what I would do.

There is NO connection between a dog eating what was in all probability a dead foetus, btw, and a dog attacking a horse, and no connection (in the dogs head) between attacking what it sees as a prey animal and attacking a human...none.

A sheep worrying collie is a danger only to sheep, it never makes the connection between the sheep, which are prey, and the "master race" which is humans. So a sheep worrier can be safely rehomed with a family (so long as it has the correct temperament) in safety so long as it is never let near sheep again. Even a sheep worrier that has killed sheep, although rehoming is not usually an option!

 

[Relic]

l'm sorry l offended anyone about my dog..l suppose thinking back now l could have just posted we lost our first foal of the year and left it at that..better still l guess the smartest thing to have done was to just keep my mouth shut altogether and not post at all...The mare wasn't due till the end of May so had a ways to go l brought her up into the foaling paddock less then 20 ft from the house so she could be watched for any foaling signs that should have started anytime about now she was having her 5th foal was a good and protective mom in the past and usually did go the full term. What happened with the dog is going to torture me for a very long time she lived right in with the mares and foals all year and never in the years she was amoung them was a threat even from the weaners when acting full of themselves racing around..she'd just pick herself up and lay on the other side of the fence and watch till they tired themselves out she never chased any mini at any time for any reason l knew of. She had a dark moment for sure and did what she did not knowing when the second time would or could happen and she'd do it again thats the part l was having the problem with in deciding what to do with her. Making this foal a meal and why this one why not one from 3 years ago or last year..a farm dog who eats horsemeat or any other livestock you raise was not in my mind a good prospect for rehoming..

 

[rimmerpaints]

im so sorry but i agree with you i would never trust him again either. If i had to choose my horses or my dog it would be my horses.

 

[Magic]

I wasn't going to say anything on this thread, but I have clear up some misconceptions here. I belong to an LGD chat group, have been a member for over six years, and there are a lot of owners and breeders of LGDs who feed their dogs raw meat. They even feed them raw meat of the very animals that these dogs are guarding, whether it be chicken, goats, whatever.

None of these owners/breeders have had ANY problems with their dogs then attacking ANY animals that they are entrusted to guard. Generally the dogs won't touch an animal that is still warm, they will even protect it from predators, but when it is fed to them by their owners, they eat it. Over many generations, that is usually what LGDs were fed, because that is what the shepherds had to feed them (besides what the dogs could catch on their own, and yes, they would catch rabbits, etc, to supplement their diet).

I'm not saying that Relic was wrong to put down her dog, but since the foal was surely born dead (not expected for at least another month) then the dog would not have been a threat to her other horses. Possibly to future foals? Hard to say, I don't know what breed of dog it was, or what its temperament was. My LGDs won't even touch a placenta when I take it out of the stall, but I know that some dogs would surely eat it. We each have to do what we feel is best for our individual circumstances. I just don't want people to think that if a dog chews on something dead that it finds,that the next step is attacking livestock.

 

[Magic]

Relic, we all have 20/20 hingsight, and others try to make our animals into people, but I truly believe you did the correct "farmer" decision. I believe you should take peace in that the majority of posters here feel yours was the correct decision.

Many will give examples, as above, about the LGD. But, truly, on a farm, you can not take a chance, and your first instinct was the correct one. And I also love and raise dogs, but I've always gone with my farmer's instinct and never regretted it.

{{{{{HUGS}}}}}

And I agree, regardless of what I previously said. Only a dog's owners know that dog, and if something it does "crosses the line" and cannot be trusted, then that is that, especially if you've had doubts about the dog in the past.

I have LGDs to PROTECT the horses, not harm them. Having them brings me immeasurable peace of mind. My Great Dane is super with the minis too,she's only out with them under supervision, but my Catahoula-- she just isn't allowed in with them, ever. Her chase instinct is too strong and I won't take the chance.

 

[lucky seven]

Relic, you did the right thing with your dog. When mine was a puppy he learned that when our large horse put his head down to sniff, that he could grab ahold of the halter and pull and he almost pulled the horse off of his feet! That was the last time he was allowed near a horse without being on a leash. Then he started nibbling on a neighbors fingers, then nipped another neighbor in the leg. It just gets worse. We still have the dog, he is older, not allowed near children or people he doesn't know and has a chain link fence he can't get out of. I don't let anyones dogs near my 2 horses. Especially the mini.

 

[Riverrose28]

Relic, I agree you did the right thing. A couple of years ago there was a pack of dogs coming over every night attacking my mini's. I would go out a chase them throw things snap the whip. Once I fell in the mud chasing them around midnight. I had to sleep with the window open even in the winter to listen for barking. I called the owners three times to tell them to please keep their dogs at home, it didn't do any good. Hubby couldn't take it any more and shot one of the dogs. Needless to say they don't come around here anymore. I also do a lot of demos with the little ones, and last year we took two to the League of St. Mary's Animal Rescue for the kids to pet. We took two sheep pens to put the horses in thinking that would keep them safe. Well someone came up to one of the pens with a large dog that bit my filly on the nose, needless to say now she won't tolerate any dogs in her part of the field. My arabs will also stomp dogs into the ground since the ordeal with the running dogs. I have devoted my whole life to dogs, first in Vetrinary Science, then working as a assistant and progressing to dog groomer. I used to raise, breed and show. I never would want to hurt a dog such as the one my husband shot as I feel it was the owners fault and the dog didn't know any better, but some times enough is enough, you have to protect your livestock. You did what you felt you needed to do, don't beat yourself up over it. A word of advice though, every one needs a good dog! When or if you get another one keep it in the yard or only let it near the horses when supervised. Dogs will be dogs! Please don't take that advice wrong, but I've learned first hand not to allow even my own dogs around the horses with out me. Sorry for the lose of your foal and your dog.

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

Pot, meet kettle!

There you go again, young lady, giving advice you do not take yourself.

Please stop this, it is annoying and tiring and serves no purpose.

:shocked

Kris is blaming the OP for what happened, therefore making the OP feel worse, and I'M the one whose wrong???

i've told you this once before,IF YOU DONT LIKE MY POSTS THEN LOOK THE OTHER WAY! i dont get what is so very hard about that that you cant seem to understand

all you are doing is ticking me off and putting fuel to the fire, so to speak.

you think i'm annoying and tiring? look in the mirror, you are annoying and tiring to me.

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

IF and it is a huge "if" I were derelict in my vigilance, I am afraid I could not find it in my heart to blame my dog, let along euthanise him.

(And yes, strangely enough, I do know the difference between dogs and horses and am a certified Dog Behaviourist, to boot!)

so if your dog seriously hurt your horse you would still keep said dog around horses?? that is extremely unwise and selfish for your horses! your other horses lives would be in danger, as would any horses that your neighbors may have!

i have to admit, i hate dogs. HATE them. with a passion. i was attacked when i was younger and i must say its the worse thing that has ever happened to me, something i wouldnt wish on any animal i loved.

(And yes, strangely enough, I do know the difference between dogs and horses and am a certified Dog Behaviourist, to boot!)

....are you TRYING to antagonize me??

IMO, calling yourself a 'dog behaviouist' means nothing to me. i've seen 'dog behaviourists' that couldnt tell the difference between a chihuahua and a doberman, and couldnt even teach a dog to sit.

 

[Eohippus]

I'm reading the posts and watching my lap dog, curled up, asleep on her bed a few feet away. I couldn't even begin to imagine coming home to a scene like that. I'm so sorry about what happened, Relic. A person should have never to witness that nor face the choice you did.

But as I'm sitting here, looking at my dog, I'm trying to put myself in the OP's shoes, to try to see what I would've done. When it comes down to it I don't know because I wasn't there and my dogs are different then their dog, or any one else's dog(s). My little lapdog, Kia, isn't a threat to the horses, rather, the horses are a threat to her. So she's not generally allowed out with them (there are very few exceptions). Our GSD was professionally trained (well we were trained to train her type of deal) as a personal protection dog. She has her canine good citizen and since we raised her from 6 weeks old to gaurd our chickens, rabbits, etc I could never see her doing that. But I also don't think I'll ever have another dog like her, one that is so well behaved with all different animals and treats them like her own pups. She's definiately a one of a kind and an exception to everything. My aunt has a dog, on the other hand, who has attacked her other dogs before, bitten my stepmother's hand (she had to get stitches), and is very aggressive. I can honestly say if that dog ever made the wrong move around me (I've never been around to witness any of his poor behavior) I wouldn't hesistate to send him six feet under. Every dog and situation is so different I think there isn't one right answer or one wrong answer. You have to go with what your gut tells you at the time and thats the only right decision. Others can say what they would've and wouldn't have done but it makes no difference in a situation like this. They weren't there and every one has an different outlook. Some may be bias because they're a dog trainer/breeder others may be bias because they dislike dogs due to bad experiences in the past, some may have a "dogs are family" outlook and others may have the "farmers" outlook, or there might be a combination of attitudes/bias.

I think you made the right dicision for you which is the most important thing

 

[slv]

I am so very sorry for your loss. I had to have a mare euthanized once, and could not get her buried that day...so covered her with a tarp. The next day I discovered that our bouvier had eaten part of the horse. Naturally this freaked me out and I thought it would be best to euthanize the dog. After consulting with some much wiser and more experienced dog owners than myself, I was told that dogs will try to eat dead animals so they don.t draw other predators to the farm....so it is all part of their protection plan......Well, I kept her around......and then she killed my cat that I had had for fourteen years She knew that cat lived here......she was just an evil dog. We rehomed her.....they were told everything about her. I know it must have been a tough decision....thoughts and prayers for you.

 

[Marty]

Oh Dawn...... So so so sorry.

 

[Riverdance]

I am so sorry to about your loss. I think you made the right decision. Chances are the foal was already dead, but once they get a taste, they will probably kill the next one.

I had a rescue dog from the pound. Had her about 2 weeks ( a german shepherd), she actually went under one fence, killed and ate a filly that I had. I brought her back to the pound the next day and had them destroy her.

Again, I am so sorry.

 

[joylee123]

Relic,

I am so sorry you had to go through this. Sending {{{hugs}}}, prayers and supportive warm thoughts your way.

 

Joy

 

[LaVern]

I am sorry for your loss. I am thinking that the foal was already dead.

We are dog lovers and horse lovers. We have never had any trouble with the dogs hurting or even scaring the horses. Their job is to protect them. But, there are a lot of mornings when I find strange stuff on the front yard. It might be a old deer carcass, a lot of afterbirth, muskrats, you name it. It seems the stinkier the better.

We feed our dogs raw beef every morning, so how are they to know they are not supposed to eat something that is dead. Especially something that really smells good and rotten.

But if a dog ever killed one of my foals it would be gone too.

 

[chandab]

I am sorry for your loss. I am thinking that the foal was already dead.

We are dog lovers and horse lovers. We have never had any trouble with the dogs hurting or even scaring the horses. Their job is to protect them. But, there are a lot of mornings when I find strange stuff on the front yard. It might be a old deer carcass, a lot of afterbirth, muskrats, you name it. It seems the stinkier the better.

We feed our dogs raw beef every morning, so how are they to know they are not supposed to eat something that is dead. Especially something that really smells good and rotten.

But if a dog ever killed one of my foals it would be gone too.

You said it better than I could.

We raise beef cattle and live very rurual, so they dogs are always finding some "treasure" or another. Right now is calving season, so there are lots of goodies to find; lost calves, afterbirth, and all sorts of treasures. It was a hard winter, so there are deer that didn't make it. The dogs are always dragging something into the yard. but, if one ever went after a horse or foal or live calf, it would be gone.

 

[sedeh]

I'm so sorry for your losses.

What an aweful thing to find!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I agree that the foal was already dead, and I also agree that it is up to the owner.

Relic did not hurt her dog, I need to emphasise here that I think she did the responsible thing, if she could not bear to live with that dog any more- she did not hand the problem on, and the pounds are absolutely FULL of dogs, no-one, or hardly anyone, wants a dog in these hard times, killing an animal does not hurt it.

What I am trying to explain is that a dog does NOT make the jump from a foetus, already dead, a piece of meat, and a live foal, it just does not work that way.

Dogs are domesticated wolves, we control their instincts at all times. We also invite them into our lives, we have a responsibility to control their desire to hunt and kill.

If we cannot do this then the answer is to act as Relic did, to live up to the responsibility, and not to pass on the problem- if a passing, responsible, dog loving relative, who lives in an urban area, were to take the dog, OK, but in all honesty, how often does that happen?

My dogs are my life, when my bitches fought, and they fought hard and long, it was MY responsibility to make sure they were never left in a position where they could kill one another.

I did not do this by killing either of the dogs.

If I had been less invested in one of the dogs, or actively distrusted it, or thought I could not control it, I might have considered putting one down, but I loved them equally, so I worked round the problem and made sure they were never in a position where fighting could occur, again.

Never, not once, did I even consider the possibility that either bitch would turn on me, that sort of "leap" just does not happen in a dogs mind. They were fighting one another, for second place behind me, the Alpha bitch.

With people, small children, handicapped adults, they were lambs, totally trustworthy. Now these are Dobes, dogs that have quite a bad reputation, certainly capable of taking down a grown man, when trained.

Now, the OP is living in a different situation to me. Possibly not as invested in the dog as a pet and a companion (this is NOT a criticism) and, at the time this happened, possibly no other alternative was possible.

The dog has not been hurt, and is beyond retribution or pain,I see nothing wrong with this action.

What I am saying is it is NOT necessary, in every situation, to assume your otherwise quiet and well behaved pet, who you love, has suddenly turned into a ravening wolf and needs to be shot before it attacks the children.,

This does NOT happen.

If you are in a position to make sure you dog never goes near a foaling mare again, there is no reason why you pet cannot live it's life out happily, content in the knowledge that you will stop it form behaving in any way you do not wish it to.

That is how a dogs mind works, they are not looking for ways to scare and anger us, they are looking for ways to love and defend us, often with their lives, we are their pack. Sometimes they step over the line, but this is more often than not merely because they were not aware that the line was there.

Like horses, truly "bad" dogs are very rare.