Kicking Straps - Pros and Cons Please

[RhineStone]

I think it probably gives one a false sense of security. It is supposed to be an end all for bucking and kicking.

Nope, not an "end all be all". It won't "stop" your horse from bucking or kicking.

It really isn't much of a "training" device (other than when the horse can't accomplish what he wants to do, he might give up), it's definitely more of a safety device for both human and horse.

I don't use a kicking strap very often, b/c I try to learn the horse's "stress reactor" prior to putting it to. However, the mini mare I am working with right now bucks when she #1-doesn't get her way, #2-is stressed in some other way. Therefore, I will use a kicking strap with her when we put to, to save my nose.

Here is a photo of a friend of ours using a kicking strap in an ADS show. (This is the best photo I could find.) He won Concours d' Elegance with this turnout at this show. There are three straps on the horse's butt. The two that are more vertical are the hip straps that hold up the breeching. The more diagonal strap is the kicking strap. You can see how nicely this strap "blends in" with the rest of the harness. It doesn't draw attention to itself screaming, I AM A KICKING STRAP!

This is also the same gentleman that almost lost his nose by that same horse.

I think another reason that you don't see kicking straps on a regular basis on show ring horses is just what Lori said, they are trained out of it. Most horses will figure out that kicking/bucking is not an acceptable reaction. However, this particular Friesan has gone along fine and then has "let loose". He is a great driving horse, and is getting much better with age (I haven't seen him buck in years), but the owner really wants to play it safe. I think the majority of kicking straps are used on green horses that you don't see in the ring, yet, hence why there are not too many photos of kicking straps. My little pinto gelding has been known to go along fine and then let loose, so I decided that he really wasn't worth as much of my time as my black horse that I don't have to worry about (and the black moves better

). Therefore, the pinto doesn't get shown, kicking strap or not. I don't need him deciding to let loose in front of a judge and lose my shot at a ribbon.

 

[georgiegirl]

I think it probably gives one a false sense of security. It is supposed to be an end all for bucking and kicking.

Nope, not an "end all be all". It won't "stop" your horse from bucking or kicking.

It really isn't much of a "training" device (other than when the horse can't accomplish what he wants to do, he might give up), it's definitely more of a safety device for both human and horse.

I don't use a kicking strap very often, b/c I try to learn the horse's "stress reactor" prior to putting it to. However, the mini mare I am working with right now bucks when she #1-doesn't get her way, #2-is stressed in some other way. Therefore, I will use a kicking strap with her when we put to, to save my nose.

Here is a photo of a friend of ours using a kicking strap in an ADS show. (This is the best photo I could find.) He won Concours d' Elegance with this turnout at this show. There are three straps on the horse's butt. The two that are more vertical are the hip straps that hold up the breeching. The more diagonal strap is the kicking strap. You can see how nicely this strap "blends in" with the rest of the harness. It doesn't draw attention to itself screaming, I AM A KICKING STRAP!

This is also the same gentleman that almost lost his nose by that same horse.

I think another reason that you don't see kicking straps on a regular basis on show ring horses is just what Lori said, they are trained out of it. Most horses will figure out that kicking/bucking is not an acceptable reaction. However, this particular Friesan has gone along fine and then has "let loose". He is a great driving horse, and is getting much better with age (I haven't seen him buck in years), but the owner really wants to play it safe. I think the majority of kicking straps are used on green horses that you don't see in the ring, yet, hence why there are not too many photos of kicking straps. My little pinto gelding has been known to go along fine and then let loose, so I decided that he really wasn't worth as much of my time as my black horse that I don't have to worry about (and the black moves better

). Therefore, the pinto doesn't get shown, kicking strap or not. I don't need him deciding to let loose in front of a judge and lose my shot at a ribbon.

Thank you, Rhinestone, for your last post. That just about sums up what my feelings are on the whole subject. Appreciate your answers.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Obviously the OP has received plenty of input and learned what she wanted to, but several people did ask for pictures so here are mine.

This is one of our earliest Training Level CDE's back in 2006. Kody was just beginning to learn to use his haunches and still had a strong tendency to buck or even capriole

when excited so you bet I used a kick strap. Here's a view from the cart.

You can see the kick strap in this photo following the line of the rear breeching hipstrap. It blended in very well!

At the Happ's CDE a few weeks later on marathon:

Shown at a schooling weekend in 2008 with my Camptown Harness, where the slot on the kick strap was not big enough to permit it to fit around the backstrap up by the breeching. I didn't like it in this crupper arrangement at all but it was Kody's first time out in months following a surgery and I knew he was going to be bouncy from excitement. He was!

In this position all it did was pull the backstrap down and let his butt round up ahead of it. It might have been okay if I'd been able to secure the strap forward like Rhinestone's Friesian photo shows but I couldn't with this cart and as a result it pulled the crupper from side to side as he bucked and really irritated him. Thankfully he knew better at this point and a firm verbal command and tap with the whip got him moving again. I took the strap off after a few minutes as it was doing more harm than good applied in the wrong position. (He's not bucking in this photo, just cantering, but you can see the kickstrap clearly.)

A Camptown kick strap works fine with a Camptown Harness. This is me driving JJay's "Leggs" at the National Drive 2009.

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

Wow! Kody's moving really nice in this photo! (Not that he isn't in other photos, but I haven't seen him in person to know any different.) Look where those withers are in relation to the rump! And he has a nice arch of his neck coming out of his withers, not a hollow "soup bowl". Nice soft collection, too, not forced and stiff. The hind legs are tracking up nicely underneath himself. This, my friends, is what good dressage training will do to your horse! My guess is that Kody might have "one more gear" that would really push that hind up underneath (or it could have been when the photo was snapped) (or is that what the surgury will do?

) (Should we have a "let's analyze this horse's frame" thread?)

I have heard of people adding another footman's loop for the kicking strap. That might be a way to pull it forward.

Thanks for posting these photos. They really should help people get an idea of how a kick strap should be.

Myrna

 

[candycar]

Thanks Leia! that helps bunches love the pics of Cody!

 

[georgiegirl]

Obviously the OP has received plenty of input and learned what she wanted to, but several people did ask for pictures so here are mine.
This is one of our earliest Training Level CDE's back in 2006. Kody was just beginning to learn to use his haunches and still had a strong tendency to buck or even capriole

when excited so you bet I used a kick strap. Here's a view from the cart.

You can see the kick strap in this photo following the line of the rear breeching hipstrap. It blended in very well!

At the Happ's CDE a few weeks later on marathon:

Shown at a schooling weekend in 2008 with my Camptown Harness, where the slot on the kick strap was not big enough to permit it to fit around the backstrap up by the breeching. I didn't like it in this crupper arrangement at all but it was Kody's first time out in months following a surgery and I knew he was going to be bouncy from excitement. He was!

In this position all it did was pull the backstrap down and let his butt round up ahead of it. It might have been okay if I'd been able to secure the strap forward like Rhinestone's Friesian photo shows but I couldn't with this cart and as a result it pulled the crupper from side to side as he bucked and really irritated him. Thankfully he knew better at this point and a firm verbal command and tap with the whip got him moving again. I took the strap off after a few minutes as it was doing more harm than good applied in the wrong position. (He's not bucking in this photo, just cantering, but you can see the kickstrap clearly.)

A Camptown kick strap works fine with a Camptown Harness. This is me driving JJay's "Leggs" at the National Drive 2009.

Leia

Thank you for posting the very informative pictures. My next question is where did you find the very nice harness saddle pad? I havent run across those yet. The fleece pads keep moving around.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Wow! Kody's moving really nice in this photo! (Not that he isn't in other photos, but I haven't seen him in person to know any different.) Look where those withers are in relation to the rump! And he has a nice arch of his neck coming out of his withers, not a hollow "soup bowl". Nice soft collection, too, not forced and stiff. The hind legs are tracking up nicely underneath himself. This, my friends, is what good dressage training will do to your horse! My guess is that Kody might have "one more gear" that would really push that hind up underneath (or it could have been when the photo was snapped) (or is that what the surgury will do?

) (Should we have a "let's analyze this horse's frame" thread?)

Myrna

I have to admit that despite the filthy raincoat, Hyperbike, poor lighting, etc., that is my favorite trot shot of Kody ever for exactly the reasons you list. Unfortunately that is in fact his top gear (he was flying along the top of a hazard in that photo, excited and powered up and really on the bit) but you can see the way he's naturally built in that 2006 photo and for a horse with his low neck set and camped out hind legs that's about as good as it's going to get. He's not a naturally powerful mover (he fits in the Western Country or Classic Pleasure with his long low movement) but he does have good reach and once his stifles were no longer locking he was able to build a lot more muscle in the rear and start getting a frame like this. He won four out of five Preliminary CDE's I put him in that year and the fifth one we lost because of driver error.

I so miss driving my little man!

GeorgieGirl, which pad are you interested in? The first one shown is a Smucker's I think but it was almost pony sized and way too big. I replaced it with a waffle pad from Mini Express which I like pretty well and still use with that harness. The one under my Camptown saddle is a Pillow Pad (also from Camptown) and those are pretty nice if your saddle is already well-shaped and doesn't need much padding.

Candycar, glad you like him!

That's the same kickstrap I used on your Jelly Bean when I visited.

Leia

 

[REO]

Thank you for the photos!

 

[susanne]

Should we have a "let's analyze this horse's frame" thread?
Myrna

I think this is a great idea, Myrna. Your comments on Kody's movement are very educational. While I had seen much of what you noted, my experience in dressage is so limited that any illustration of key concepts is very helpful.

I'd post a photo to start this off, but so far we only have "before" photos, lol.

 

[Carriage]

Thank you Leia,

Discussions of and being able to view movements are one of my very favorite topics. I would look forward to seeing this photo study done on Mingus Susanne. From the first time I saw him in harness I KNEW he was going to be great. All it took was one snapshot that I treasure in my mind.

Also it is so nice to see a harness system so well tuned to both the horse and the rig.

The lines are impeccable.

Thanks Leia

Bb

 

[susanne]

Thank you, Bob! We're so lucky to have Mingus, and he is, indeed, a natural -- I can't take much credit, as I still need to learn in order to help him live up to his potential. I'm chomping at the bit to get out and drive once I get the go-ahead from my doctors.

 

[ponyandcarriage]

I would appreciate it if there could be some input on the pros and cons of kicking straps.
Do they really do the job?

What about the straps that connect to the crupper. Do they make the tail area sore if they are properly installed?.

I notice that very few of drivers use them. I dont feel the need for one right now, but I am getting some other feedback that indicates that they are not a bad idea.

In all the research that I have done, there is very little information in books and DVD's on the subject.

I know there must be some information in the forum on this subject, I just cant find it.

Thanks in advance.

Hi

[SIZE=12pt]Here are two videos that may be of some help, the first video shows the fitting of a crupper style kicking strap which does not cause soreness etc providing it is fitted and adjusted correctly, the second video a kicking strap in action.[/SIZE]



Hope this helps a little

 

[michele80906]

Thank[/COLOR] you for the pictures. They were perfect, just what I was looking for. I had an accident earlier this fall, not going into the whole story but suffice to say after the bucking and kicking incident I had it not only forced me to do what I needed to do as far as more ground work and ground driving and more communication with my horse, but I after I hook my mini back to the cart I won't be driving without a kick strap ever. I don't look to the strap as a "cure all" for everything but as with riding big horses as I did for over 30 years, there are safety precautions I took with riding just as I will with driving. You can never do enough preliminary work on your horse to advance them to the next level, but as with all horses, I don't care how well they are broke, crap happens and minis are, after horses. And I found out just how powerful and quick these little guys can be. I am looking forward to when I hitch my little guy back to the cart.

 


the OP has received plenty of input and learned what she wanted to, but several people did ask for pictures so here are mine.

 

 

 


You can see the kick strap in this photo following the line of the rear breeching hipstrap. It blended in very well!

 

[michele80906]

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]Those were very helpful, especially with the action video. The strap works just as I envioned it would. Michele

strap which does not cause soreness etc providing it is fitted and adjusted correctly, the second video a kicking strap in action.



Hope this helps a little

 

[hobbyhorse23]

[SIZE=12pt]Here are two videos that may be of some help, the first video shows the fitting of a crupper style kicking strap which does not cause soreness etc providing it is fitted and adjusted correctly, the second video a kicking strap in action.[/SIZE]

Excellent videos, thank you.

I notice on the one of the strap in action the front wheels of the carriage are indeed lifted by the horse's upward efforts but that seems to help keep the shafts at the same place on his sides so he can't kick over them and doesn't appear to do any harm. What happens with a two-wheeler in your experience? Since all the weight is over that axle instead of half or less, does it generally stay down?

Also, it's interesting to note that the crupper kick strap in your informational video fits at the same place on that horse as the hip-strap positioned one does on the other horses shown in this thread. He's got such a lovely high tail set and flat topline that his backstrap is very short indeed. Do you have any pictures or video of that model fitted to a horse with a bit longer/more sloped croup and a lower tail set? Would you use it on a horse like that, or make any adjustments in how it is fastened to do so? It seems like however it attaches, the correct positioning is still up by the top of the horse's hip.

Thanks for your input!

Leia

 

[jegray21]

Thanks for the video!

 

[ponyandcarriage]

[SIZE=12pt]Here are two videos that may be of some help, the first video shows the fitting of a crupper style kicking strap which does not cause soreness etc providing it is fitted and adjusted correctly, the second video a kicking strap in action.[/SIZE]

Hi Leia

To be upfront with you we have not actually ever witnessed a horse bucking or kicking properly in a two wheeler with a kicking strap fitted but here are my thoughts.

A kicking strap should be just as effective and perhaps even more so as you do not have the pivoting with the solid fixed shafts of a two wheeler that you have with a four wheel carriage.

When the buck takes up the slack and bears into the kicking strap it pulls solid against the shafts and you then have the whole weight of two wheeler acting against the buck.

Unfortunately no pictures or video of one fitted to something like a Friesian with a lower tail set.

If using a crupper style kicking strap on a horse with a lower tail set I would be tempted to position the strap to the shafts towards a more vertical position otherwise it is possible that on bucking the crupper may well be pulled tight under the tail maybe exasperating the situation, but to be honest that’s just my opinion and there must be dozens of valid scenarios and thoughts on this subject.

Unfortunately whenever these events do occasionally happen as you know it tends to all happen very quickly with little chance of catching it on camera to later sit back and look carefully at the movement actions involved.

We ourselves have had one bucking incident that ended in a carriage tip which is another story but even today we are still not entirely 100% percent sure what caused it, horse was fine and put back too and it hasn’t happened since but we do use a kicking strap now for peace of mind and as far as we can tell don’t lose marks in the dressage because of it.

All the Best

Liza

 

[My2Minis]

Thank you for this thread. I have a kick strap but haven't been using it. I will take the time to put it on next time I drive.

 

[MiLo Minis]

With the Minis I have had buck or kick on me with the kick strap on only the larger ones have been able to move the vehicle and more so when they buck rather than kick. As you have seen with my cart they usually tend to only be able to kick out the boards on the front of the basket and can't get their heels up high enough to get over the shafts. As far as whether or not the strap exasperates the incident I really don't know if they would have stopped quicker with the strap up higher or not. I run mine through the crouper buckles which are just behind the hangar strap of the breeching on my working harness because they are nice big buckles and the strap interferes less with the breeching in that position. I would think that even if I ran the strap through the back strap it would still tug on the crouper somewhat during a bucking episode. I am not really sure if the strap shortens a bucking spree or if it just helps to prevent injury to myself or the horse.