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brookhaven

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Like some many out there, I'm always striving to better my breeding, to find the right mares and the right stallions. I've read so many threads on critiques of horses as stallion material. Just WHAT IF, stallions had to be approved for breeding, much like the warmblood registries. Stallions there have to go through testing and be judged by a select committee as to whether they meet the qualifications of breeding material. There is even a 100 day testing where they are judged on conformation, manners, performance, etc. If they pass they are graded and given "Premium Stallion" status which would be reflected on their papers. IF, the miniature horse registries initiated a stallion testing it would 1)help exclude some of the poorer quality minis from the gene pool, 2) would help inspire folks to geld their non-stallion material, 3) would increase the value of the offspring of an approved stallion and certainly would help strengthen the breed as a whole. (you warmblood owners out there can step in and comment as well). I know there are alot out there that just breed for pet quality and I'm not out to offend ANYONE (flame retardant suit is at dry cleaners), but I just think this might be a way to really establish the mini as a breed, to continue the fine bloodlines and good attributes and eliminate a lot of the problems seen in uneducated breeding practices. Okay...fire away....
 

Sue_C.

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A good idea in principal,
but difficult in practice. One would have to prove the horse at sanctioned shows, I would assume; and be inspected by licenced inspectors... Problem there, is the cost difference, depending on where you live. It might only cost some a few $$, while others would have to shell out some pretty big bucks.

I wouldn't mind spending the money, if it was an equal cost for all, but even the sanctioned shows are impossible for us here, as the closest ones are in Ontario, and that is quite a ways to go several times a year, just to get some points, or for an inspection.
 

runamuk

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Actually I am one who thinks that this is the only way to solve the problems of many breeds and species.......and the cost isn't any more inhibitive than just going to shows...some of us have lots of close shows and others have to travel out of state etc just to get to one or two a year.......

The problem with horses and other "pet animals" is culling we cannot effectively cull and guarantee that the true culls wont be used for breeding by someone with less scruples..........

If the only way you could breed was to be licensed then fewer would get into that aspect and if to be licensed the horse must pass muster this further reduces the numbers breeding in turn this brings up not only quality but prices...it also controls population and fewer horses are "extra's" that end up in slaughter houses......

Of course this is America and it is my right to whatever I want however I want so long as I am not breaking any laws........and this prevailing attitude is why I don't think licensing and testing will ever be enacted in this country......

my 2 cents
 

brookhaven

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Valid points. I'm not saying that if your horse isn't "approved" you can't breed it. I'm just thinking that if I were looking to breed to a stallion or looking for good breeding stock, that I would certainly look at one who has passed muster, who has been inspected and approved to have the conformation, performance, manners, movement, that should be the inherent qualities that we look for. And, yes, these horses and their offspring would probably cost more, but isn't that what we all want? For our horses to "pass inspection" and bring the money that we feel they are worth? There would still be pet quality but it would perhaps "raise the bar" of quality in the breed. And, maybe, because more people might be inclined to geld, that standard too might be raised.
 

SILVER

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runamuk said:
Of course this is America and it is my right to whatever I want however I want so long as I am not breaking any laws........and this prevailing attitude is why I don't think licensing and testing will ever be enacted in this country......

my 2 cents


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Sue_C.

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some of us have lots of close shows and others have to travel out of state etc just to get to one or two a year
The cost difference here as far as travelling to shows goes is this... You have 50 states to travel through, and most States have a sanctioned show, but we have only 10 Provences to cover, in a larger Country, and very few sanctioned shows as of yet.

The closest sanctioned show to me is pretty well two days travel, non-stop...
At $1.14 CN a litre for gas, (And they say by this weekend, it will be $1.20.) that isn't something I want to do very often, hauling my little goose-neck full of horses.

But, like I said, should one not have to do the show thing, and simply have the animal inspected for conformation, then I say it could more readily be done. That might not cure all, but it would certainly help.
 

Gameela

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This has been brought up for other breeds as well, the biggest problem is A: Cost and B: Who decides what stallions are good enough?

Even with stallion testing, you still need judges, and depending on what activities must be included in the testing period, a lot is probably still going to be left up to a judge and not just the horse(s) capability. So, is the judge going to choose their favorite type of miniature horse and exclude all others, limiting the gene pool a great deal, OR, are they actually going to choose the best overall individuals?

There is a wide variety in what miniature horses look like, same with Arabian horses (my specialty), you have your stockier, big boned horses, refined, elegant/stretchy horses, etc. so, the judges would have to take this into consideration and not choose JUST one type over the other.

It's a good and bad idea, depending on how you look at it
 

brookhaven

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With the warmbloods (Hanoverians, Oldenburgs, etc.), there is a committee (not just a judge) who actually travel the country and set up "approval testing sites" where you bring your horse to be tested (not to say this couldn't be done at a show). Since the horses are judged not just on conformation but performance, manners, movement, etc., selection would be a composite of all. There are many super nice horses out there that just don't like to show but doesn't mean they aren't excellent examples of the breed and likewise, there are people out there with excellent horses that just plain don't want to show but might like to have an "approved" stallion.
 

liltnt

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this may or not be a good idea, I dont breed and it is doubt full I ever will but, we as people arent rated and licensed to breed and dogs arent restricted to which male can breed, seems like an almost impossible feat to do it with a horse. Yes it would raise the price for the horses, but you still would have no guarantee as to what the stallion would throw with a given mare.

You can get a litter of say 5 pups with a dog and you breed them for bigger heads, lets say....... only one out of the litter will be born with the larger head.
 

runamuk

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Well I think it would be wise for dogs and cats as well......especially since they have litters.....

The idea as I see it is that to do this you would FIRST have a CLEAR standard of perfection.........then you would a a comittee of inspectors who compare the individual animal to the STANDARD and use the european judging system which typically breaks down into percentages...then to be approved for breeding the animal must meet a pre set percentage

I am speaking from the standpoint of the US as a country adopting this type of licensing......other countries do have these sorts of laws and requirements .........

I as an American would support the loss of some of these "rights" if it would curb the unneccessary breeding and over population of pet animals ...and yes I would still support this even if it meant I could not breed it doesn't preclude me from owning it just makes it harder to breed.......

Americans are so accustomed to having the freedom to do whatever we want regardless of the long term effects or consequences.....many many places still consider horse breeding more of a luxury for the priveleged few.........of course other countries also accept eating horses so have an outlet to also cull in a harsher manner........
 
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Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis

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I hear often it would be hard to implement and that who would decide well all i can say to that is it works in other breeds and works well.

would i put my money where my mouth is you bet.. even if it meant one of my horses didnt pass then i guess i would have another kick butt gelding.

however like others have said I dont see it happening but would surely be in favor of it if it did
 

Erica

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I haven't read through this thread yet, and while I am ALL for breeding the BEST that one is able to.........

There are some Kick A** looking stallions that can't produce crap, plain and simple. And the ones you want for a great program are the ones that the "proof is in the pudding", which is their foals and their foals' foals that OUTPRODUCE themself.

Just cause a horse is nice looking and a show winner doesn't mean it can produce more.

Although I think the idea is neat - I think it would be hard to impliment.
 

rabbitsfizz

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We've had Stallion Licensing for fifty years- it was fine when the Min of Ag did it- ALL stallions used for breeding had, by law, to be licensed. A Min of Ag approved Vet would come out and put your stallion through a fairly rigorous test of soundness in all ways- heart lungs eyes, testicles etc. In Europe the tests were even more rigorous and the animal had to be seen working and his offspring were inspected after two years of a provisional license. I never heard a word about "crooked" Vets, I never heard any grumbling at all. Then the government handed over to the various breed Societies and the poopie hit the windmill. I have had first hand experience of true prejudice on numerous occasions. A very well known breeder who came to do the inspection part of Rabbit's license would not pass him. I ran him, I stood him I trotted on the road, on gravel, on grass. FOR TWO HOURS!!! This was twenty three years ago. |Finally the two lady inspectors took their man away and gave him a good talking to. Seems he had a stallion who he had been saying was 28" and Rabbit was smaller and better so he did not much like the idea of the competition. This was a most reputable breeder, who I have often heard described as a man of honour, and I have hidden a smile. The licensing scheme for this Society has ALWAYS been highly suspect, the breeders of the big, unsaleable, animals have always been jealous of the smaller animals, and so big ugly animals will pass the license, animals belonging to someone who happens to have a barrister for a son will pass (Actually happened!!) but good sound animals belonging to a nobody will fail every time. Our licensing scheme for the BMHS was simply a certificate of soundness and a request for the Vets opinion on the horse as a breeding animal. This then went before the Committee, which is fine in essence- if there is anyone on the Committee who actually knows anything about breeding!!!So, as you can see the whole thing is full of holes and possibilities of prejudice. What we are heading towards now, as th EU has deemed licensing illegal, is a grading system that is voluntary, Lord alone knows who we are going to get to do the "grading" as , this year , I have been judged by only one person who actually seemed to know what he was looking for- the others seemed to think Miniatures were just too sweet for words- Hah!!! Good Luck, all of you. I am opting out of the whole thing, as I am now able to do. I would not use a stallion that was less than top class, and I do not think not having him graded will affect the value of my foals one bit, I am not getting into any scheme that is open to misuse, as long as I do not have to. Oh and the first scheme?? A stallion turned down by this scheme sold, a week later on the Vets report alone, for $2,500.00- twenty years ago!!!
 

justjinx

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Per Gameela "Who decides what stallions are good enough?"

This is what would also concern me, and i think rabbitfizz, also, showed why I would be concerned.

Look at what happens at a miniature show---2 judges and TOTALLY different placings in halter and performance.

Then look at the STANDARD OF PERFECTION -- it really tells us nothing. It is not specific enough. I may breed to the SOP but if the judges only like ONE type of mini, and mine is not that type, or yours is not that type, well..........

jennifer
 

runamuk

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justjinx said:
Per Gameela  "Who decides what stallions are good enough?"
This is what would also concern me, and i think rabbitfizz, also, showed why I would be concerned.

Look at what happens at a miniature show---2 judges and TOTALLY different placings in halter and performance.

Then look at the STANDARD OF PERFECTION -- it really tells us nothing.  It is not specific enough.  I may breed to the SOP but if the judges only like ONE type of mini, and mine is not that type, or yours is not that type, well..........

jennifer 


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One of my biggest pet peeves.....a standard of perfection that is not much at all.....and that is where it would have to start......The standard must be precise and well defined otherwise it is pretty useless........
 

rabbitsfizz

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The standard of perfection of the AMHA was lifted, almost verbatim, from the Shetland Pony Stud Book Society standard. Do you really want to breed Native Shetlands????
 

whitney

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I like the "theory".

It would cut down on bad stifles, u neck, club footed, long backed, short necked "REGISTERED" horses.

But how do you make judges use and understand the STANDARD?

I would happily take my horses to be tested.
 

brookhaven

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The standard of perfection of any breed basically describes a well-balanced, structurally sound individual that meets the specifications for which it is intended to be used. Conformation would only be a part of the approval process. Throw in temperment and movement/performance with each given a percentage of the pie. The final average being over a certain percentage and the horse is approved. The committee would consist of possibly a vet, couple of judges and a breed representative and fairness in "judging" would be a little more even. And, it doesn't necessarily assure that the horse will produce but at least you're starting with the right qualities and with enough "right qualities" together, at some point you would think they would have to produce quality individuals. Again, all this is hypothetical and probably will never happen but my hats off to those who would be willing to put their horse and their breeding to the test!!!
 

Tapestry Minis

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First of all, just as an observation. I find it rather funny that we place so much weight on show results from judging but yet can't trust them when it comes to picking a "standard quality" As I said just an observation


I think it is a good idea but it would take much time in streamlining and the idea is that it's not just the judges view of the horse it's a committee and licensed vet..etc.... It would also have to be governed by a non biased party. As Rabbit said it worked well when the Ag agency was handling it over there but when it was passed down to the registries is where it got out of hand. Again with anything like this it takes a lot of time to refine. Rome wasn't built in a day. The Constitution wasn't written in one day. And so on.
 
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Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis

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again this isnt a idea that is new or hasnt been implemented in other breeds i am sure there are always those few cases where it wasnt fair or people are unhappy but as a general rule it does work for warmbloods

and tapestry minis.. great observation lol
 

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