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Yes Danielle, the players and pieces are in place. Just depends on your definition of "sooner than later." The question is will Israel go ahead without the U.S. or hold off until after the election? The better known news media will not speak much about it beforehand but there are other sources that will lay it out in great detail. Blame wars on religion, oil, or gold. It does not change at all what is inevitable.
 
Vickie, it truly scares me, this entire situation. We all know that Iran is not being governed, in my opinion, with very sane thinking. What they are capable of doing if they are hit may be more than we think at this point. I have been following Joel Rosenberg for some time and have read most of his books. Any of you familiar with him? We Canadians are usually the diplomatic type but seeing what is happening with the Iranian diplomats being expelled doesn't give me the confidence that things are ok. My personal view is the strike will happen before your upcoming election.
 
As is so often the case, the definition and the practice of atheism are two entirely different things. The word atheism, as you noted, means "without god." In practice, Atheism is the rejection of god. As you also noted, how can you object to something that does not exist? Perhaps our definitions of religion differ, but Atheism (with a capital A) is most definitely a belief system that shares rampant contradiction with most religions.

In practice, I see agnosticism as living without god, a life where the existence or nonexistence of god bears no importance.

I completely agree with Matt with the importance of making a positive difference in the world, and letting your actions speak rather than using the cloak of organized religion to show who you are.

Jill, there is certainly a contradiction in agnostic pantheism, but the part of agnosticism that resonates with me is accepting doubt and being comfortable with not knowing all of life's answers.

Please note that I said my beliefs "run toward" pantheism. I did not say I am a Pantheist. My life and my beliefs do not fit into any "ism" or any capitalized school of thought.

It is human nature to seek easy answers. I reject that. I don't need answers to be happy with or unafraid of life and death. I would be so bored if the answers to life's great mysteries were spelled out clearly. Give me answers and I'll give you new questions. (And almost all of them will be asked at least partially in jest.)

.
Susanne, I have to applaud you for your honesty and transparency.
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It is no secret that I proclaim loudly and proudly that I am a Christian to the point that I have "no wiggle room." But I have in my past been to a point that I was neither afraid of or happy with death. I felt that I was so unclean that I actually welcomed a release from this old world, no matter what would lie on the other side, if anything at all. I remember climbing up on the wall of our local lake's spillway at the dam slightly intoxicated prancing forward and backward daring death to take me down into the murky foaming waters. I just did not know or care what tomorrow held and was ready to tell it all to kiss my ruby red u know. I even wrecked my brand new Toyota Celica that I had not even made the first payment on. I was taking my dear friend home from the lake and missed a curve on her street and flipped my car 3 times. We walked away (literally) to her house unblemished ( except for her very bruised chest which was due to me grabbing her and slamming her down on the stick shift while we were upside down. I figured, heck, what good is it for me to hold onto the steering wheel while we are upside down, AND since she always had the window down flicking her cigarette ashes she could fall out her window so I thought it would be gallant of me to pin her to the floor lest she fall out the open window). It was actually nearly 20 years later I made up my mind that I knew there was something on the other side of death that I wanted. Before that moment I felt a spiritual connection to nature; however nature alone. Some of that energy was received during yoga classes and some of it was while I was meditating. I felt the presence of a higher power that loved me in a way that actually made me uncomfortable while at the same time made me feel that I could run but that I could not hide. It was all very personal and there is no way I can explain it without sounding hokey. Eventually, Jesus did reach out to me and I literally stopped running away from him and instead ran into his arms.

As far as Matt's point of view, I so hope there is something to that because it so describes my granddad. He was such a good person as far as doing good deeds for others. He was not religious at all and he did have some vices that I could set aside because I loved him so much. The preacher assured us that in his final moments he actually came to know Jesus. If I could vote on who will be waiting to greet me in heaven my granddad would get my first vote.

I am glad ozymandias cleared up what she believes as far as all gods being imaginary friends. I thought she was putting Dagon the fish god on an equal platform with my God. I get her now. lol.

I just hope all of us make it to have many more years here enjoying life on the planet. If all this comes to fruition with Israel, Iran, and the USA I can only say that considering that my work involves supporting the warfighter I will likely be exiting before some of you guys that are not in a such a strategically endangered local.
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Yup, it's hate and that hate is sadly religious based
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. It all boils down to " my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend"

If it were non-religious books calling to kill those not of your faith all heck would rain down on them ... Do it under the name of religion and it's suddenly justified.

I just thank goodness at the fastest growing segment in America today is those who are non religious, educated (the previous 2 stastically go hand in hand) peace loving, socially conscious people...I just fear it may be too late. We're destroying ourselves and our planet....because there are people convinced they're trotting off to a better place.
Ozy - how DARE you insinuate that I am "lesser than" because I happen to believe in God! That my family and those who believe in what I believe are the downfalls of this world. And if you think that "peace on earth" would reign if religion didn't exist, then you are the one who is delusional. Evil men will always find an excuse for the atrocities they commit. Religion just happens to justify it - as you say. But even if it didn't exist, they would find another reason.

You are so amazingly condescending anytime religion comes up. You do not feel and think with my brain - you have not experienced the same things I have, nor felt what I have felt nor know what I know. Yet you feel qualified to judge me based on something you can have absolutely NO knowledge of.

Once again, in the name of tolerance and peace and love for all, you show yourself to be one of the least tolerant out there.

Barbara
 
Yup, it's hate and that hate is sadly religious based
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. It all boils down to " my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend"

If it were non-religious books calling to kill those not of your faith all heck would rain down on them ... Do it under the name of religion and it's suddenly justified.

I just thank goodness at the fastest growing segment in America today is those who are non religious, educated (the previous 2 stastically go hand in hand) peace loving, socially conscious people...I just fear it may be too late. We're destroying ourselves and our planet....because there are people convinced they're trotting off to a better place.
Religion is NOT the root of evil...it is Lucifier which temps people to hurt, be angry and to kill...yes and the different religions have a lot to do with why the world is the way it is now..BUT it has all been orchestrated out by God already and unfortunately(or fortunate) ... God gave us free will and if that means we bury ourselves..so be it!...You have nothing to fear, but fear itself. Wars are fought in the name of of many things and issues and armageddon will be more horrible than you can even imagine. I, my family and friends maybe here for the first part(hope not), but we will be gone off to a MUCH better place and those who do NOT believe will stay and face the music..Obama is part of that music..this I believe 1000%.. You can't do anything about war...

Every Christian pacifist must deal with the Old Testament. Warfare was part of the life of the Old Testament people of God. At times, God himself commanded Israel to go to war. While Christians differ on the weight they give the Old Testament witness, they cannot ignore it. It provides the background for what Jews would have believed before they followed Jesus.

Thus, a proper understanding of the Old Testament perspective on war helps us compare and contrast its teachings with the instructions given by the greatest Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, and his apostles.

I could go on......

I don't know about you all, but I am so overjoyed that "I AM" trotting or being whisked away to a better place!
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God Bless,

Jenny
 
Also, I know we do not miss a chance to bash religion online. It's amazing how many discussions are twisted around to that objective. However, it seems to me atheists as a group have more than enough hate and intolerance to keep them from casting stones at those of faith. Sincerely, some of them sound so unhappy that they must really be a misery to themselves. We won't get rid of religion -- no more than we will erase hope and kindness -- thank you, God.
AMEN Jill AMEN!

Thank you God!

Jenny
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What the heck is going on??? Never mind the war that might start between Iran and Israel, which is what the subject I started was suppose to be about ...... This is so sad. Extremism is what causes this intolerance from both sides, neither side here on this forum is better than the other. Please.....stop this fighting. I truly thought we could have an interesting discussion, instead it has turned into this mess.
 
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What the heck is going on??? Never mind the war that might start between Iran and Israel, which is what the subject I started was suppose to be about ...... This is so sad. Extremism is what causes this intolerance from both sides, neither side here on this forum is better than the other. Please.....stop this fighting. I truly thought we could have an interesting discussion, instead it has turned into this mess.
Danielle, I'm sorry for the part I played in the drama going on in the discussion thread you started. I read it, saw the direction it was going, and logged out. But then I couldn't get out of my head what had been said, and I had to come back here and say something. I've had my say, I'm under no illusion it will change any minds, but it made me feel better to stand up in some small way for all the "ignorant" people like myself!

Barbara
 
I know this is drifting off the original topic but I don't feel I use my church as a cloak. I love the feeling of community. I love the ritual of singing hyms, of prayers within a community, of sermons (some good, some boring), of communion. I love teaching Sunday School to squirming children, I love prayer groups, Bible study, pot luck dinners, I love going out into the community with others and trying to make positive changes in peoples' lives. Yes, I donate to my church but I donate to other groups as well. I was raised in the church, left the church as I questioned my beliefs and came back to it. It's my path and I don't try to make it anyone else's path but I would ask that people respect my choice as I respect theirs.

Maybe this is the problem in the world. We need to have a consensus to work together and put aside our differences and celebrate the positive in life. There are so many factions all over the world, it's becoming almost impossible. I pray for Israel, I pray for Iran and all the people of the world and while I'm praying, I'll go out each day and try to make a small difference somewhere in someone's life.

Everyone travels a different path but at some point in our journey our paths do crosss and we need to absolutely embrace each other or we'll never find peace.
 
Ozy and others, one last thing. Maybe it's not organized religion you are objecting to so much as those who follow a certain religion trying to say you should believe that as well? I don't like that either. While I respect your right to practice your religion, I don't necessarily have the same beliefs and don't want to hear things like I'm going to heck, etc. because I don't believe in what you do.

I wish there was a way we could stand back and just have everyone get along. Think how amazing that would be with no more wars, no more of our children dying in combat, no strife. I don't think it's religion's fault. I think it's a failure to be tolerant of differing views while on a quest for power.

Thanks for letting me say my peace.
 
I am agnostic and do not tell people because it always leads to someone telling me I'm going to go to heck and "God bless me" or that they will pray for me. While I appreciate that people are trying to be kind...in their own way, it actually hurts me that I am not accepted for MY beliefs. I am spiritual and I'm not yet sure if it's because I was brought up christian and just haven't shaken the underlying beliefs that I had drilled into me as a child, or if I really do believe in something higher. So for now, I am a confused agnostic
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I like it that way-I read and research all faiths and religions and find it incredibly interesting. I think people NEED religion, for themselves. It gives people hope and relieves us human's extreme fear of death (to a point). I have nothing against those of faith. I find it honorable, just wish that those of faith would find my own beliefs honorable as well. I put a lot of thought and research into it and did not take my change of beliefs lightly. Most people don't. I think when you grow up being told it is only acceptable to believe in something and you are afraid of telling people you think differently, it gets frustrating. Not that I'm condoning anyone bashing anyone else for their beliefs, I just hope I can shed a little bit of light as to why those of us with a bit of a different belief system do get a bit frustrated.

HAPPY WEEKEND EVERYONE!
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I respect you OHMT. Went through the same thing myself and came back to the Church. I think we should just allow others to be. If asked, explain why we feel as we do but respect that others have differing viewpoints.
 
Mountain woman...I really admire you...you seem like a very kind person
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Ozy - how DARE you insinuate that I am "lesser than" because I happen to believe in God.
Nothing of the kind was ever insinuated. If your referring to the link between education and religion just google. There's a good Gallup poll article complete with graphs showing the relationship between faith and education. It's well known and proveable that the higher your education...th less likely you are to believe in myths or superstitions. It's also been shown over and over that the more religious a nation...the more warlike and visa versa. These are just facts.

It's this...I'm off to a better place that's preventing those people from investing in this world here and now
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or flying planes into buildings to get your quote of virgins !

One thing that constantly happens is people who have been raised in religion, and never taught otherwise, emailing me and saying..."wow,I never knew!" Not many pastors will tell you the garden of Eden story came straight from another religion...right down to their god making a man, forgetting the woman, making her from his rib, forbidden fruit etc. the flood story...the Jesus story, Moses etc all being copied from other known myths from other religions.

To understand why Iran wants to wipe Israel off he face of the planet you need to study their religion to see that the lands Israel inhabits are sacred to them and the Koran calls for the removal of any infidels occupying those lands.
 
I am agnostic and do not tell people because it always leads to someone telling me I'm going to go to heck and "God bless me" or that they will pray for me. While I appreciate that people are trying to be kind...in their own way, it actually hurts me that I am not accepted for MY beliefs. I am spiritual and I'm not yet sure if it's because I was brought up christian and just haven't shaken the underlying beliefs that I had drilled into me as a child, or if I really do believe in something higher. So for now, I am a confused agnostic
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I like it that way-I read and research all faiths and religions and find it incredibly interesting. I think people NEED religion, for themselves. It gives people hope and relieves us human's extreme fear of death (to a point). I have nothing against those of faith. I find it honorable, just wish that those of faith would find my own beliefs honorable as well. I put a lot of thought and research into it and did not take my change of beliefs lightly. Most people don't. I think when you grow up being told it is only acceptable to believe in something and you are afraid of telling people you think differently, it gets frustrating. Not that I'm condoning anyone bashing anyone else for their beliefs, I just hope I can shed a little bit of light as to why those of us with a bit of a different belief system do get a bit frustrated.

HAPPY WEEKEND EVERYONE!
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This was very well said!
 
I agree Danielle.. Canada knows something and that is why Canada and Iran have severed ties.. Something is brewing.. I am sure..
Scares the you know what out of me !!!!
 
It will be interesting to see what transpires here in Canada in the next few days on Parliament Hill. I work two blocks away and often when there are demonstrations I can hear them from my work desk. The now closed Iranian embassy is arouhe the corner as well from my work.

This is what appeared today in our local Ottawa paper

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/story_print.html?id=7212246&sponsor=
 
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