How many of you would support a Rule Change Proposal?

[Katiean]

The more I read here, the more I love my dog sports...

My pony can stay home this year and I'll just show my dogs.

Many dog organizations (including the AKC) have prohibited various collars (including choke collars, pinch collars, prong collars, head collars, electric and dummy electric collars) in competition for sports such as Agility and Obedience, yet many professional trainers use those prohibited devices with much success. Even so, your dog cannot enter an Agility or Obedience event in anything but a flat buckle collar, martingale collar or choke collar (depending upon the event), with nothing hanging from it. This rule obviously takes away exhibitors' right to put whatever they want around their dogs' necks, for whatever reason. There are no exceptions, or timelines when it's okay. Now, that's not necessarily because those prohibited collars can't be used in a non-abusive way, or because every dog who has one on is, has been or might be abused. It's also not necessarily because a dog can't be abused with an acceptable collar, or be abused at home with a prohibited collar only to show up with an acceptable collar on for competition. More than anything, I believe it to be a rule that helps present a positive image to the public, which is exactly what a having an exhausted horse hanging from it's lead trying to sleep in it's stall at a National show would not do. Dog sport people can now Eliminate a person who shows up with a prohibited collar on their dog at an event, no questions asked. They don't assume there may or may not be a problem, or if the dog is used to the prohibited collar, or might need one for control issues. It seems many horse people would rather argue about their rights to keep their horses in unsafe situations and come up with a myriad of excuses instead of consider that perhaps the horses should have rights, too. Nice!

When you compare tying to shock collars you are comparing Apples to Oranges. A horse HAS TO BE TIED for grooming, harnessing, blanketing and yes sometimes for confinement. Tell me just one time a shock collar is needed for grooming, harnessing or anything except the control of the dog to complete a course. NOT THE SAME. I believe we did discuss the use of shock collars in another thread. Once again not the same.

 

[Amy]

Wow Amy, Thank you for your input. I guess you didn't read the entire posting of comments, only those that you didn't agree with. But that is ok. If I have learned nothing else from this topic. It is that we have a very diverse group of horse owners.

I am not sure where this comment "abuse" keeps coming up. I am sorry if I was pulled in at one time to use or defend it. But the proposal was "Unsafe, inhumane stalling procedures".

And what "agenda" would that be? That I dont' care to see horses hanging from thier halter from fatigue and inability to lay down?

My phobia....ok again not sure where that came from.....We tie ours too. But not 24/7........

If you read all of my comments you will see from where we began until now the "proposal". Which is all it is right now. Is a request "not to tie horses overnight", I will state it again.....not that they "can't" be tied at all.

If you still do not agree with this proposal when it is presented at Convention, then it is your right as a member to vote it down.

This was never meant, as I have stated before, to take peoples rights away. Or legislate anything. It was meant to give rights to the horses.

And as for the age comment, that was lost a long time ago on this thread. And no one has brought it up since. I am sorry you felt you had to bring it up again.

IF you see anything at ANY time at Nationals or any other show -- immediately report it to the steward and it will be investigated. You do not have to stand by & do nothing if it bothers you -- that is why (partly) that these officials are at the show.

and again if you read my complete comments on this, I did........

Sorry to have to disagree with you on this last posting aimed at me. I HAVE READ the whole number of pages a number of times BEFORE I decided to reply. THese were the points that I picked up from the whole thing -- sorry if that is NOT what you meant - that is what came across to me. I happen to believe our shows are controlled pretty darn well & I have the utmost respect for the stewards doing an excellent job. If you saw something you did not like & reported it -- I assume it was looked into & taken care of. Should be end of story -- I do NOT believe we need to LEGISTATE every thing for everybody. Just my view point-- sorry you take exception to it. But, again I do believe I have the right to express it. I did not try to "belittle" YOU in any way.

 

[ClickMini]

There are a LOT of rules about what you can and can't do at a dressage show. Equipment you can or can't have/use. Any horse that is out of its stall being either exercised or exhibited must have its number on so problems can be noted and reported. And believe me, they are.

USEF guidelines for reference: http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions...yGuidelines.pdf

I found this in the rule book for the American Paint Horse Association:

A. INHUMANE MANNER OF TREATMENT. No person on show

grounds, including but not limited to, barns, stalls, parking area and show

arena, may treat a horse in an inhumane manner, which includes, but is

not limited to:

1. Placing an object in a horse’s mouth so as to cause undue discomfort

or distress;

2. Tying a horse in a manner as to cause undue discomfort or distress

in a stall, trailer or when longing or riding;

What Syndi is proposing is not without precedence.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I would be for anythiing that makes the horses life more comfortable. If common sense was used by all, laws wouldn't have to be written, but there will always be some who are not respectful towards their animals and then it takes people like Skanzler to speak for the animals who have no voice. Thank you for your voice of good reasoning. Mary

 

[Boinky]

2. Tying a horse in a manner as to cause undue discomfort or distressin a stall, trailer or when longing or riding;

if it was worded in THAT manner i would have no problem with it. That leaves it open to being able to tie (even all night) as long as the horse is comfortable and not in distress.

 

[justanothercowgirl]

There are a LOT of rules about what you can and can't do at a dressage show. Equipment you can or can't have/use. Any horse that is out of its stall being either exercised or exhibited must have its number on so problems can be noted and reported. And believe me, they are.

USEF guidelines for reference: http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions...yGuidelines.pdf

I found this in the rule book for the American Paint Horse Association:

A. INHUMANE MANNER OF TREATMENT. No person on show

grounds, including but not limited to, barns, stalls, parking area and show

arena, may treat a horse in an inhumane manner, which includes, but is

not limited to:

1. Placing an object in a horse’s mouth so as to cause undue discomfort

or distress;

2. Tying a horse in a manner as to cause undue discomfort or distress

in a stall, trailer or when longing or riding;

What Syndi is proposing is not without precedence.

Amy, I think the wording of the Paint horse "tying" rule is very workable and I have agreed with Syndi up to a point. I don't want horses tied short....Syndi doesn't think they should be tied at all. I think if they can lie down and have food and water they are not being caused undue discomfort and distress.

I applaud Syndi for stepping up and she knows that.

 

[mininik]

When you compare tying to shock collars you are comparing Apples to Oranges. A horse HAS TO BE TIED for grooming, harnessing, blanketing and yes sometimes for confinement. Tell me just one time a shock collar is needed for grooming, harnessing or anything except the control of the dog to complete a course. NOT THE SAME. I believe we did discuss the use of shock collars in another thread. Once again not the same.

Good job picking up on only one part of that post, shock collars, which I will say are used for much more than "anything except the control of the dog to complete a course." As for the rest being a comparison of apples to oranges, from the public's viewpoint, I don't think so.

 

[Katiean]

2. Tying a horse in a manner as to cause undue discomfort or distressin a stall, trailer or when longing or riding;

if it was worded in THAT manner i would have no problem with it. That leaves it open to being able to tie (even all night) as long as the horse is comfortable and not in distress.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS POINT.

 

[Amy]

Well, you may not want YOUR horse tied short. I don't want MY horse tied long.

Did you ever see a horse that had been tied out on a long rope & had lay down, rolled & hung itself??

Well, I have -- NOT my horse but that did NOT make the picture any prettier.

I say, as long as they are safe -- you tie yours how you like & I will tie mine to suit me. You may decide what is safe for your horses & I will do the same for mine.

This is what I mean by your rights end when you step on mine. I will NEVER tie a horse on a LONG rope.

And, no, we do not tie our horses in their stall at Nationals only when they are eating, so really this topic does not pertain to me at all.

But , I will not be legislated to tie MY horse by someone else's standards either.

 

[wildoak]

Tying a horse in a manner as to cause undue discomfort or distressin a stall, trailer or when longing or riding;

I absolutely agree with this, and would have no trouble supporting it. There is no specific reference to time tied, length of rope, etc - just good common sense. Of course, this leaves it up to the steward's judgement but making judgement calls is part of the job.

you may not want YOUR horse tied short. I don't want MY horse tied long.

Amen. It was drilled into me for many years that you never tie a horse long enough to get tangled up in the rope. I've seen horses tied to trailers with a lead rope wrapped around a leg, their head pulled down....and a wreck in the making.

Jan

 

[Sunshine Acres]

I have observed horses being tied short in their stalls during the entire show at both the 2006 and 2007 AMHR Nationals. Granted, the horses had access to water and food and did have shavings placed in a pile beneath them, but none of these horses were able to relax or lie down during their entire stay. I witnessed one horse attempting to lay down and it was actually hanging from it's lead in an attempt to rest. a rule being submitted on this matter.

I have seen these same horses. I personally do have an issue with horses being tied for 8-10 days straight. Given no time to rest, not allowed to even relax and put their head down to the ground.

I am very concerned with the amount of people that either missed the original posters point about 8-10 days straight or that feel this is an acceptable practice and one they routinely follow at home

 

[Fred]

I have read this thread and I see abuse in all types and forms every single day. You can't legislate common sense and I do not see any way you could word this to make it pass as we already have a blanket rule regarding cruelty. I have one question though. Did you go back to the steward after reporting it to find out the outcome? It is a big show and sometimes things fall through the cracks and I DO know that if they thought it was abusive they would have dealt with it. With everything going on they may have needed to have been reminded. Also, last I knew dumb jockeys were not outlawed. What you may see as cruelty with a training device may not be. I don't use any of the devices as my guys have natural talent but I know how to [as I live in the land of the morgan and other gaited horses] and understand their uses and I don't have a problem with someone who does use them in the right manner. Plus MOST people can't tell when a horse is artifically enhanced and there were a couple of them that won at nationals and I saw several people oohing and ahhing over them on this forum. ANY piece of equipment that is used on an animal can be used in an abusive way, you really need to think on that because I have witnessed it firsthand Pretty much on a daily basis. Proper education is the absolute key with the right tone and that is what we do with our clients on a daily basis and I can tell you it really works. Most people don't realize what they are doing and the bad ones will hang themselves eventually anyway.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I have read all of the posts here with interest.

I see this issue as one of common sense and humane ethics-and if you've been around for awhile, as I have, you know that there are plenty of people in this world who have little to none of either, sad to say. And no, you can't 'legislate' either, but you CAN provide some 'tools' to help prevent animals from suffering too greatly when their handlers are lacking in the above! Tools don't work on their own, though...they have to have someone to use them.

I, too, was taught not to tie 'long', NOR too short. Tied animals should not be left completely unattended for long stretches of time, period(meaning you are not within earshot, if not directly visually, IMO)-there is really no justification for it at a HORSE SHOW, where a horse has a STALL, which is it's 'home away from home' for the duration of the exhibition. The circumstances simply don't support doing so. If a horse eats shavings, use a muzzle-but NOT with a halter, unless it has a 'breakaway' feature(all of the mini horse muzzles I've seen have their own poll strap,which would enable the muzzle to 'pull off' if caught on something.) If the horse 'must' stay clean, use a sheet/blanket,as temps dictate, w/ neck cover, hood, or 'slinky'--yes, it takes a little time to put on/take off, but it is the HORSE'S comfort and well-being that should come first, not YOUR convenience--at least, not if your priorities are correct!

I did my share of rodeoing, and one-day, show-from-the-trailer shows. It is a fact of life that horses stand tied for periods of time at these kinds of events. It takes a thoughtful handler--tie properly(NOT too long, NOT too short, safely w/ a 'quick release' knot, and so the horse isn't 'backed up' to its neighbor, so 'kicking fights' don't start. When you arrive, if it's going to be hot, park so your horse will be shaded by its trailer as the day progresses/gets hotter. Offer water frequently. Offer a hay bag during 'down time',IF you are going to be nearby, and it is safely hung....All ANY of this takes is THOUGHTFULLNESS--and maybe, a bit of extra time!

I have also gone on multiple day trail rides in the mountains. Our 'rigs' were moved to a different overnight camp daily. My mare overnighted tied to the trailer(others had portable pens of various kinds, some used a picket line, some even put their horses in their (BIG!) trailers overnight). The rule of thumb for tying overnight,and 'long', is that the horse can JUST reach the ground w/ its muzzle-and it works remarkably well. Unless your horse is a 'paw-er', it is very unlikely to get it's leg over the tie rope when tied in this manner. When a horse has worked for 8 hours during the day, you'd better believe it needs to be able to lie down during it's 'off' hours--and my mare did, comfortably and for lengthy periods, when tied this way. A (rubber)water bucket was kept always within reach, and a hay bag(not net), tied to the trailer w/ a rubber tub below, to catch what dropped so she could finish that up w/o too much 'nosing in the dirt'.I always asked that my rig be parked within easy sight and sound of the cook camp(where meals were served, and riders socialized); I slept within easy earshot-in the back 'seat' of my truck-and I keep a sharp pocket knife ALWAYS at hand. You MUST 'know your horse'--if it is the type to 'find' trouble, you probably would find another way than tying, for THAT horse.

Copying the (somewhat vague, IMO) rules in the stock horse breed rule books MAY be enough--IF you have people who WILL report to management, and management that WILL investigate and follow up...big IF, IMO. AMHA does not have stewards, so who is going to go out and investigate any reports of alleged violation? Perhaps a little "shunning" and peer pressure would be a good idea?? Job one, IMO, is for people to speak up when their GUT tells them what they are seeing is not humane treatment of a horse....squeaky wheels DO often get more grease....and quit tiptoeing away with today's prevalent 'don't rock the boat', don't EVER presume to 'judge' philosophies....JMHO, of course.

Margo

 

[Katiean]

It seems that AMHR Nationals keeps coming into the subject as to where offenses are taking place. My question is, If you are seeing a problem, why are you NOT speaking up when it is being done? I have not seen one time where people have said it was done at the local or regional shows. So, if this is a National Show problem then why not address it to the show board rather than making a rule?

 

[skanzler]

My gosh are you just not reading the entire post? I have been trying very hard to just sit back and read and take in everyones viewpoint and stop commenting. I am hear to read and get as much input on this subject so that I can write a workable addition to the standing rule, to give the stewards more, as many have stated "teeth" to the general rule.

But Katieann, you just keep missing the points in this thread.....It WAS REPORTED, there hope that helps. I am sorry, but I am tired of the posters, that are not reading the entire thing, and yes it is getting lengthy, but come on......and I have been as others on this post and in both oranizations, saying "who am I to complain?" or "if I complain all of the heavens will open up and come raining down on me" "OMG, the repercussions".

But you know something, I CAN make a difference. Everyone can, if they will just speak up for the horses. Which again Katieann, you want to ignore this particular part of this thread. It is NOT ABOUT YOU. This post is about YOUR HORSE. I am not yelling, I am emphasizing points that you seem to ignore.

You can tie your horse at your local shows, even at the Nationals. What I was asking for is a proposed addition to the rule to ad that "no horse shall be tied continuously, for the duration of a show. As to cause undue discomfort or distress" Or something to that effect.... Still in the works for content.....

And again for those of you that still feel that this rule, no matter how it is written, is something you can not or will not support then be at convention and vote it down....

We are offered stalls at Nationals and local shows for the horse to have a place to relax and sleep. If it were better for the horses to stand tied all the time, then why offer the stalling option. We could all just park in the parking lot and leave our horses either tied on the trailers or to them....

 

[Katiean]

I am not missing the point. YOU feel I do not agree with you so I am missing the point. All I am saying is if you see something report it. Don't go running around telling EVERY ONE what they can and can't do. It is the same as a home owners assoc. That tells me I can not park a horse trailer in front of my house. My property, my house, my horse trailer. I will park it. I am not saying I would "truss up" a horse. I never have. But, why do the many have to suffer for the few that do such a thing? I went through the whole barn at AMHA Regionals and did not see 1 horse tied up high. I did see horses tied for the duration of the show. Food and water available. I saw people splitting a stall between 4 horses. I think for the most part people tying or using pvc pipe to split a stall are trying to conserve CASH. I think the clip on the lip is worse then tying. Have you clipped one on your hand lately?

 

[hhpminis]

I've been sitting on my hands as well.

I am sure this takes place at local shows as this person has to qualify somewhere. Also many local shows only last 2, 3 days at the most.

Nationals is such an issue as it is a 10 day show, this main person is not there the entire time but for a good portion of it.

There is a rule that states no cruel inhumane practices will be tolerated. This is a very broad term as has been brought out numerous times througout the thread. Also there is no "teeth" to this rule for stewards to actually support it unless it is something very obvious and leaves lasting impression on a horse usually physical evidence such as welts or blood.

While I think it will be very hard to pass a specific rule that names tying, I think with some finesse, we could come up with a weightier rule or backing for our stewards.

As for not reporting it. I know Syndi has said something, I have said something the year before to not only the person but the stewards as well. I had clients at this National show that came and expressed concern to me. The fact lies that as long as the animals physical needs are being met they can do nothing.

I had a suggestion given to me yesterday when I was discussing this with a friend. Many of us have camera phones now, if we see something that bothers us, take a picture and back our statement to the stewards. I think it would be hard to find anyone within our organization that could look at a pciture of a horse trying to lay down because it was tired with its nose up in the air hanging from a rope that would not consider that inhumane.

I use about 6 bags of shavings, 4 initially and added as needed throughout the week, in my horses stalls at Nationals, I want my horse to have a soft place to lay down, off the asphalt, to rest after I have asked him to work. These horses are tied for days, and stand on a scant cover of shavings, just enough to soak up the pee. They are not standing on dirt or mats, they are standing on asphalt or concrete.

I dont want to tell someone what they can and cant do with their own horse, what I would like to see happen is that inhumane and cruel have a bit more meat added so that it is easier to determine and therefore the stewards have backing when they call a spade a spade.

 

[Elsa]

Instead of trying to micromanage, I think it should be left to the stewards discretion to rule on the already existing rule of no abuse tolerated. If the stewards were given more power, so to speak, I think they could handle it just fine and see what is humane and what is not. Afterall, that's why they are there. JMO

 

[maestoso]

Just my opinion, but if I ever saw a rule that states "A Horse must never be tied between this hour and that hour." or, "A horse may only be tied for this many hours at a time." or "No horse shall be tied for 6 straight days." I would probably think it was a joke, a misprint. That is just too specific, it is micromanaging. However, you could say, "No abusive practices are allowed. Abuse is left to the discretion of the steward." and that would work. But I thought that's what we already had...