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Dkminis

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What is everyones openion on horse sales? Seem to be sales everywhere & the only one making money is the ones having the sales. I feel it is hurting the farms sales. When they can buy horses with papers for nothing, they sure wont come to the farm & pay anything. I think if they sell them for nothing they should pull the papers. If they pay a pet price that is what they sould get. If we don't stop giving our horses away & cut back on breeding, then the price will never come back up! I have lost sales because they wont to wait & see what they can buy at a sale, they usually can find something cheap!



If they have sale ( with all the commision fees & no sale fees etc,) They should have a set starting price or something so folks wont be able to get them so cheap!



Sorry I guess I am just upset. Then I see people bragging about what a wonderful sale it was. Depends if you are buying or selling I guess.



What does everyone else think about this?
 
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minie812

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Well, it is a free country...but imo you get what you pay for. I have never personally bought from a sale but have gone to several but never the big sales and the local sales will always be there. I breed only a few a year and have sold locally or kept mine if I could not sell them. I have only been STIFFED once on a horse and it was a local private individual I knew (that fiqures) so I want some kinda guarantee as to breeding soundness-etc...etc. and a reputable breeder should have no problem giving that to you AND a contract is important also...people that buy from the auctions may think they are getting a good deal but when they end up with a sick or non breedable horse they very seldom have any recourse and usually dump them on unsuspecting folks new to minis (like my second mare) stupid me :DOH! Lesson learned. But again this is ONLY my personal opinion!
 

kaykay

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I know a couple of auctions here in Ohio wont be back as sales were so bad at them last year. The guys doing the sales lost their butts. I dont think auction sales affect my sales at all. I do know at the "classier" sales (for lack of a better word) The sellers hold out for their price and dont give their horses away. To this day I have still never bought or sold a horse at auction. Buying at auction is very risky and its a real easy way to get burnt. Those cheap horses can become really expensive overnight when they bring home a illness and it goes through an entire herd.

I dont however believe in selling horses without their papers. I think that does a huge disservice to the horse to lose its pedigree and paper trail.

I think you have to do some marketing and advertising to set your horses apart

Over the years I have had just a few people say my horses are priced too high. So I explain to them that mine are fed well, dewormed on schedule, seen by a farrier on schedule and are up to date on shots etc. This costs money!! So no I dont give horses away!
 

JourneysEnd

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First, IMO, you're absolutely correct. Something has to happen with the overbreeding of animals in general. Just like dogs, though, it's the backyard breeders that are creating the majority of problems.

Look how many people post on this forum with "I just bought a horse at a sale and: I haven't gottten the papers; the papers were never transfered; she was bred but a stallion report was never sent in.

These buyers learn after one experience.

Then there are buyers who offer great homes but don't care about papers. They don't want to spend a lot of money for "pasture art" so they buy cheap.

There is the attitude that if you don't pay a lot for a horse, you don't really appreciate it. I haven't found that to be true. I've placed several horses for clients in loving, permanent homes. Mine are treated like kings whether I paid $500 or $2,500.

I guess my point is, maybe it's time for breeders to rethink how they market. Would it be better to sell a horse without papers cheaper to a good home rather than let a backyard breeder take that spot ?

I do feel for the people trying to "do it right" and getting stuck with good horses they can't even break even on.
 

maestoso

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Who's to say what is "pet price" and what is "show/breed quality price" ? I have seen really nice horses for sale at reputable farms for less than $1000. I have seen horses that, in my opinion, are lesser quality than those for sale at other farms for 5 times that amount. Why wouldn't I buy the less expensive one that I like better? I'm not really a fan of auctions or the process of auctions, but if I thought I could get a nice healthy quality horse there for bottom dollar that is where I would be looking for horses. The thing is, I DON'T think there are many decent horses being sold at auctions and the few that are there come with too high a risk of unknown issues. But if people who know what they are doing and can adequately evaluate the horse, find something decent and of quality at an auction and can get it for bottom dollar, lucky them, and I don't have a problem with that. As was said, it's a free country and the market doesn't revolve around what breeders would like to be getting for their horses. If you have a problem with it, looks like you should either keep your horse or change your price, or be patient and wait for the right person to come along who is willing to pay your price. There will always be auctions. For some people, that is their living, so it's not really fair of you to expect them all to shut down just so you can get the price you want for your horse. Yes, there are some auctioneers who do it better, more humane, more responsible, and others who are at the other end of the spectrum, but the same is true for farm breeders.

I don' think papers should be pulled. First of all, papers do not dictate quality, so just because they are buying a horse with papers, doesn't mean it's a decent horse. Second of all, if the papers were pulled, likely the horse would still end up being bred, resold, and/or mare and foal back at the auction, or stallion breeding a million other mares.

It's cruddy, yes, but you'll drive yourself insane trying to think that there's a way for you to control it. All anyone can do is what they think is right for their own horses/farm, and set an example by being a responsible owner/breeder/seller/buyer.

The overbreeding problem is a separate issue from the auction/sale problem. The only way to help the overbreeding problem is to evaluate your own breeding program and make changes. If everyone continues with that attitude of "It's the backyard breeders that are causing all the problems" then the problem will NEVER change. Everyone who breeds, even one horse a year, contributes to the problem. I am not saying everyone should stop breeding. Just saying that, if you ever bred a mare and sold the foal, even once, then you have contributed to the over breeding problem. Because even if it was a gelding, you never know where that horse will end up, or how it will end up.
 
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Suzie

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In my opinion if you breed quality horses and don't overbreed, then you have no problem selling. I sell all my horses every year but I selectively breed. Not every horse should be bred every year. If you are in this for profit, you are out of luck. We are in a recession. It affects everything. Some people think that they can just breed anything in the back yard and take it to the sale and sell it for big bucks. Horse sales are like playing the stock market. Some are stinkers, some are real gems. If you do your research you can tell the difference.

I don't ever mind paying quality prices for quality horses. I have a fortune sunk in mine but that was my choice. I wanted the horse, no matter the cost. Some people look at horses like "how much can I resell it for?" Not me. I sell my foals to help offset my feed bills some. That is not to say that if I see a quality horse at a sale, I am not going to pass up a deal. If you buy off the farm, you can usually get a good deal and a good price.

Sales are double edged swords. If you are a buyer- you want prices low. If you are a seller, you want prices high. Seldom does everyone get what they want - just the nature of the beast. If you don't like the offer- no sale it. It is a risk every seller runs. And every buyer. If you want the horse -pay the price or no sale. Just that simple. Be glad that there are sale venues available. In my opinion if you can't raise horses good enough to get a good price off the farm, don't expect to get a fortune for it at the sale either.

Flame away.
 

Carolyn R

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"Sales are double edged swords. If you are a buyer- you want prices low. If you are a seller, you want prices high. Seldom does everyone get what they want - just the nature of the beast. If you don't like the offer- no sale it. It is a risk every seller runs. And every buyer. If you want the horse -pay the price or no sale. Just that simple."


Exactly. I must add, don't expect to go to a sale, even a GOOD sale, and buy a horse for $500 and sell it's offspring for $5000, esp. when most of the prices are listed here on the forum when it comes to the sale catalogues. It does nothing for the integrity of the animal to let it go in a public sale for so little. You have no clue who the buyer is, any insight on the home it will go to. Regardless of how an animal is sold, previous owners have little control over what a new owner does, but in a private sale at least you can TRY to have some hand in your horses fate.
 

txminipinto

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I have bought 2 of my best horses at sales. And for cheap....I could have never bought the quality that I have in these 2 animals on the farms for what I paid. But, that's the descision the breeder made when they accepted the final bid. Of course, part of that descision may have been that they knew I was the one with the high bid, knew that I would promote the horse, and knew that I would get it an exceptional home. You couldn't buy these horses from me for what I paid and I sure won't be selling their foals for what I paid either.

When you are a seller, there are several things that are considered when selling horses. 1) Why am I selling? 2) Who do I want to sell to? 3) and what scarificies am I willing to make to make sure that it's a win win situation for me? If you're selling to make a profite, well....good luck. When I sell, I'm looking for a good home that's going to promote the horse. I can not realistically show all the horses that I have on my place myself, so I purposely look for buyers who want to show THAT horse. Then, no matter the price, it's a win win. I get some cash, I get one less horse to feed, and I get a horse promoted in a good home. Basically, I look for someone like me who wants my horse!


I haven't sold a horse through a sale yet as I've been fortunate enough to sell everything on my place every year. But, if the time came that I needed to move a few horses, I wouldn't balk at a sale and I would accept a reasonable bid on them based on each individual horse. I've sold horses for $300 and I've sold them for much more. It just depends on my current circumstances on what I'm willing to take. Stallions that I wouldn't promote as stallions are gelded before being sold and only in the circumstance of an extremely poor horse would I pull papers.
 

nightflight

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GoGO Magic Flame Shield, I'm gonna need it for this one.

Honestly, why would people care if they are breeding low quality or unregistered horses or not? Peer pressure, what other people think is one of the things that effects the behaviour of other people, and yet there are pages and pages of discussion here, on the largest miniature horse forum in the world, where the "educated" and "ethical" breeders are helping others breed and sell unregistered (in any registry) ponies.
 

Contessa

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I went to the Walbon VIP sale in PA this past weekend. All the horses offered were exceptional and in pristine condition. I bought a Walbon yearling show filly for a bargain price and consider myself lucky. I still can't believe a horse of this caliber in standing in my barn. In my opinion, a sale like this is superb advertising for the farm and can build up a customer base. Case in point-when I'm ready to add another filly or mare to my herd, I am going back to Walbon Acres to buy. The quality of their miniatures is priceless!
I sell silver in a retail shop and when sales start to lag, I have a huge discount sale. It works everytime and it is the same principle as the farm sales. I am not including general livestock sales because that is a different story.
 

Keri

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I would love to attend a mini horse sale. Unfortunately, there are none offered around my area. I think the closet is Arizona for me. Anyways, auctions, in general, are good and bad. People go to get quality horses for cheaper. I see it at big horse sales all the time. Great bloodlines for under $1000.

Personally, I would much rather buy a national quality filly for under $1000 than spend over $2000 at a farm. I'm a stay at home mom and my funds aren't exactly large. But I love to show and don't look at a horse for a turn around sale. I have a hard time selling mine at all. :DOH! So if a sale like this benefits me, then great.

I shop around for mine. Traded a barrel saddle for my gelding. He never had show history and I had never shown. 3 years later, we're making the all star lists and getting club awards. Half way to our HOF in several categories. I don't think it really matters where the horse is coming from, but more the person buying it. Someone can buy your horse from your farm, turn around and sell it. Simple as that. Happens all the time.

I noticed that horse prices are going up from over the winter. Granted, its not a huge increase. But its enough right now especially with the price of shipping.
 

Katiean

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I do not agree that you "Always"get what you pay for. I bought a BTU granddaughter for well under $1,000. she has pedigree, conformation and personality plus. But you don't find deals like her at most sales.
 

Reble

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I do agree,
at Auctions I always thought they should be a starting bid that is reasonable for our registered minis.

If unregistered or no papers, a different starting bid? but as many have said it will never happen....
 

Dkminis

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What is everyones openion on horse sales? Seem to be sales everywhere & the only one making money is the ones having the sales. I feel it is hurting the farms sales. When they can buy horses with papers for nothing, they sure wont come to the farm & pay anything. I think if they sell them for nothing they should pull the papers. If they pay a pet price that is what they sould get. If we don't stop giving our horses away & cut back on breeding, then the price will never come back up! I have lost sales because they wont to wait & see what they can buy at a sale, they usually can find something cheap!



If they have sale ( with all the commision fees & no sale fees etc,) They should have a set starting price or something so folks wont be able to get them so cheap!



Sorry I guess I am just upset. Then I see people bragging about what a wonderful sale it was. Depends if you are buying or selling I guess.



What does everyone else think about this?




I think most has miss understood what I meant. I raise really nice horses & have some of the best bloodlines. I really care about my horses. More than most. But when you see horses selling for 150. or 200 (this was fillies & colts not just colts ) for some nice horses not just culls. And people letting them go. I guess they had there reasons. But I don;t know how people can turn around and brag about what a good sale it was. Bred mare 500 & 700 that is awful some with foal on side. No I am not in it for the money or I would have give up long ago. All of us love a good deal. But I still think when you can buy a nice colt for 150 or 200 that is a pet price.



I guess I'm am not good at expressing what I mean, but it is scary. At one time you could buy them for 75.00 I have paid big buck for mine. I sure don't wont to have to sell them for 75.00.



Some of thses was big names & good bloodlines. I guess that is what I am trying to say. I did not sell I would give them away to a good home first. But sometime you need to sell quicker than you ever thought you might need to. Health reasons!!!!!!!!!! But I saw pretty quick a sale was not the way to go.


 
 
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Reble

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I do find at our Miniature Auction in Harriston Ontario, we have 3 sales a year.

The people have to bid their own horses up for the price they want, other wise they go home.

The ones that usually have a reason for coming to the Auction do let them go, and buyer beware.

The ones that say bred are usually not, and sometimes the seller does better than the buyer.

I usually go for the tack for sale and socializing.
 
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Suzie

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One thing that bothers me is that you said:

"I think if they sell them for nothing they should pull the papers. If they pay a pet price that is what they sould get. "

I know one thing for certain. If I ever went to a sale and bid on a registered horse and got the bid and the horse, if and when I went to pay for it and the seller "pulled the papers" because they thought they had sold the horse too low and it should have been a pet only, I would NEVER, EVER buy from that sale or that seller ever again. Once you put a registered horse in a sale, no matter what you agree to sell it for, once the gavel hits the dock, that horse is sold-with the papers it was consigned with like it or not. You can do that kind of thing for private sales at home but don't ever try that at a cataloged auction. Not sure if you understand that or not but you seem to think that is an okay thing to do.
 

Minimor

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I have never been able to figure out how it is worth it for anyone to sell their horses at a sale for $250--and we do see it here with big horses, not just small. we don't actually have mini sales locally, but there might be Minis at any given open horse sale. We do have lots of big horse sales, and there are good quality youngsters (weanlings, yearlings) selling for $250. Obviously plenty of breeders do feel it's worthwhile to raise foals & sell them for these low prices.

Would I ever take a horse to a sale and sell it for $200? No. I don't bother going to many horse sales, and I've never gone to one planning to buy a horse. If I happened to be at a sale & had the $$$ to spare & the room for another horse & one came through real cheap I might very well buy it, assuming it was one I liked and had some use for, or if it happened to be a really sad neglected horse that I felt very sorry for!

I've certainly bought a few horses for very low prices. I just recently bought a very nice pony for a very low price. I wasn't shopping but I saw her & liked her & the price was right & so I bought her. Had she been high priced, I wouldn't have even inquired, because like I said I wasn't actually shopping and really didn't have a horse budget for buying. I've been looking around at other ponies. I've found some higher priced ones that I really like, but cannot afford them. I've seen some very high priced ones that I simply do not like. I've got my eye on a lower priced one...one that I really do like. Why would I, as a sensible buyer, pay way more money for a pony that I like far less??? That makes no sense. When it comes to horses I don't believe that you always get what you pay for. Sometimes you pay a high price and get TOOK, big time. Sometimes you pay a low price & get a fabulous horse.

I've had people come here to look at horses & they wonder why should they pay the price I'm asking when they know someone that has a horse for $200. They don't want papers, they just want to have a horse they can have fun with. What I have found with a lot of this sort of people is, if they can't find a horse for $200, they simply aren't going to buy one. They are not going to pay $2000 for a horse, because they don't want a horse that badly. They want a $200 horse, and if there aren't any available then they just won't have one. So I really cannot say that the sellers of low priced horses ruin the market. <Shrugs> a friend of mine asked me some time ago if she really needed papers if she bought a Mini. She just wanted a little horse to enjoy and to keep her other Minis (registered gelding) company. Honestly, how could I tell her that yes, she definitely needed papers, and definitely she needed to pay upwards of $1000 for a papered horse when I knew the $200 unregistered filly she was looking at would suit her perfectly?? She ended up buying the $200 and she got a lovely little horse that she in completely happy with.

I know one thing for certain. If I ever went to a sale and bid on a registered horse and got the bid and the horse, if and when I went to pay for it and the seller "pulled the papers" because they thought they had sold the horse too low and it should have been a pet only, I would NEVER, EVER buy from that sale or that seller ever again. Once you put a registered horse in a sale, no matter what you agree to sell it for, once the gavel hits the dock, that horse is sold-with the papers it was consigned with like it or not.
I do so agree with this! If the auction organizers actually allowed a seller to do this they could find themselves in serious trouble I would think. Once the horse is consigned as registered & the papers are submitted to the sale (as they are supposed to be at reputable sales) those papers must go with the horse. If the seller doesn't like the price they can no-sale the horse, but if they let the horse sell they must let the papers go to.
 
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Contessa

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One thing that bothers me is that you said:

"I think if they sell them for nothing they should pull the papers. If they pay a pet price that is what they sould get. "

I know one thing for certain. If I ever went to a sale and bid on a registered horse and got the bid and the horse, if and when I went to pay for it and the seller "pulled the papers" because they thought they had sold the horse too low and it should have been a pet only, I would NEVER, EVER buy from that sale or that seller ever again. Once you put a registered horse in a sale, no matter what you agree to sell it for, once the gavel hits the dock, that horse is sold-with the papers it was consigned with like it or not. You can do that kind of thing for private sales at home but don't ever try that at a cataloged auction. Not sure if you understand that or not but you seem to think that is an okay thing to do.
I totally agree. It's unethical and probably illegal to pull papers on an advertised horse.
 

Dkminis

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One thing that bothers me is that you said:

"I think if they sell them for nothing they should pull the papers. If they pay a pet price that is what they sould get. "

I know one thing for certain. If I ever went to a sale and bid on a registered horse and got the bid and the horse, if and when I went to pay for it and the seller "pulled the papers" because they thought they had sold the horse too low and it should have been a pet only, I would NEVER, EVER buy from that sale or that seller ever again. Once you put a registered horse in a sale, no matter what you agree to sell it for, once the gavel hits the dock, that horse is sold-with the papers it was consigned with like it or not. You can do that kind of thing for private sales at home but don't ever try that at a cataloged auction. Not sure if you understand that or not but you seem to think that is an okay thing to do.
if you pulled the papers that would have to be said at the time of the sale. You woul let them go for that price with no papers. I have seen that done before & you can either take them or not!
 

Suzie

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"if you pulled the papers that would have to be said at the time of the sale. You woul let them go for that price with no papers. I have seen that done before & you can either take them or not!

And you wonder why prices are low at auctions??? Your attitude certainly does not do anything to promote ethical practices it seems. You reap what you sow. I suspect you may have done this in the past and now you wonder why nobody jumps all over your horses???

Maybe that works in your part of the country, but it surely would not work in mine.
 
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