hip conformation

[ajl]

Hi, I'm new to this site.

I was was wondering what is good conformation in the hip and hind legs. pictures to help your definitions would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jill]

These are some of my horses that I think exhibit good / deep / strong hip conformation [SIZE=8pt](first and last examples in this group are co-owed with Erica)[/SIZE]:

And one of mine who could use a stronger hip, but who produces a great hip when crossed to stallions that have good depth to theirs [SIZE=8pt](she's pictured newly in foal with her 3rd baby just home from winning a Grand champion title dispite her other pursuits!)[/SIZE]:

 

[Annabellarose]

I am not new to horses, but I am still new to the Miniature Horse world and poor hip/hindquarter conformation is the most common flaw/fault that I am encountering in my journey into the world of Miniature Horses. I want good hip/hindquarter conformation in my horses, period, but my main interest is driving and you most certainly want good hip/hindquarter conformation in a driving horse.

 

[Riverdance]

A lot of breeders and people in general have a hard time seeing a hip.

Take a look at the stifle and flank of the horse, see where it connects to the body, you kind of get a line there with reverse hair. Follow that to the top of the back, then look from that line to the end of the horse (butt). See how long that is. If it is rather short, the horse has a bad hip, if it is long, it has a good hip. Then step back and look at the top line. Is the back flat all the way to the tail?( from shoulder to tail) Is the tail set on high? If you find the rear end dropping off and the tail set rather low, not a good hip either.

I like the kind of hip that is long and flat and the tail set comes right out of the top of the back.

Below is one of my stallions that has that kind of hip and this picture was not doctored to make it look that way as many show pictures are. His hip is just that way.

Notice that he is not parked out , but set up square. He still has a flat top line and back. Many people will park their horses out till the top line and croup drops to flat.( parked out is when the rear legs are well behind the horse rather than under the horse. You want the stifle to be as straight up and down from the ground as possible, not at a sharp angle). That is not correct either.

 

[~Lisa~]

I think you will find this answer varies a lot - many people have different ideas of what a good hip is and somehow many people see very different things when looking at the same horse. IMO weak hind ends is one of the biggest flaws in minis

 

[Reble]

A lot of breeders and people in general have a hard time seeing a hip.Take a look at the stifle and flank of the horse, see where it connects to the body, you kind of get a line there with reverse hair. Follow that to the top of the back, then look from that line to the end of the horse (butt). See how long that is. If it is rather short, the horse has a bad hip, if it is long, it has a good hip. Then step back and look at the top line. Is the back flat all the way to the tail?( from shoulder to tail) Is the tail set on high? If you find the rear end dropping off and the tail set rather low, not a good hip either.

I like the kind of hip that is long and flat and the tail set comes right out of the top of the back.

Below is one of my stallions that has that kind of hip and this picture was not doctored to make it look that way as many show pictures are. His hip is just that way.

Notice that he is not parked out , but set up square. He still has a flat top line and back. Many people will park their horses out till the top line and croup drops to flat.( parked out is when the rear legs are well behind the horse rather than under the horse. You want the stifle to be as straight up and down from the ground as possible, not at a sharp angle). That is not correct either.

Good explanation on a good hip and do see what you are saying.

 

[krissy3]

I would look at the AMHA AMHR rule book. A lot of horses are "parked out" and according to the rule book its not good.. start there, or the info pages on this web site , there are pages and pages of GREAT info, on everything to do with your horse, from medical, hooves, toxic plants , feeding and conformation etc. I laminated half the info and nailed it to my barn wall, because its so useful.

 

[ClickMini]

I kinda like the look of a flattish topline and high-set tail also, but honestly that doesn't always equate to a horse being able to "sit" and "drive" from the hindquarter. I have two top driving horses that have outstanding hips, neither has a "tabletop" topline.

Here is Ally, I compete her at the Preliminary level in Combined Driving. This mare can go ALL DAY. Our competitions typically take us over 13k and through many water obstacles, up and down hills, and this girl does it NO PROBLEM and still has gas in the tank at the end. What you can see in this photo is that if you were to draw a line through her right behind the elbow, and another line just in front of her hind leg, you would see three very balanced pieces.

Now this mare has some other problems that keep her from being a brilliant mover. She has kind of a downhill balance, and that is exacerbated by the fact that her neck is tied into her body a bit low. Her shoulder is just a titch too straight. She is overall a very balanced mare, super strong, and she has 70 halter points and 8 grand championships in halter as well. This is what she looked like when she was in halter competition.

Here is a halter shot of my mare Flirt. This mare is a reserve national champion driving horse, and has won in both country and single pleasure classes. She did this in her first year of driving. She has a lot of depth to her hip, and again you see the balance of the three parts.

Here is a driving horse I am in the process of developing. He does not have the muscling and strength yet to really sit and drive, but he DOES have the uphill balance and laid-back shoulder and neck set to allow him to do it easily. I think this guy is on his way to be a very brilliant driving horse. What you will see in all three of these examples is that they all have rounded, strong, and deep hindquarters.

 

[targetsmom]

Thank you for that comment Amy. Now maybe I misinterpretted what you were saying, but I think you meant that a horse can have a strong hip/rear end without having a high tailset and super flat croup?? I happen to prefer a more "rounded" butt myself - like many big horses have - which often comes with a lower tailset. As long as the horse has balanced conformation (the 3 equal parts) which you showed so well with your two mares, I don't think a slightly lower tailset is a "flaw".

 

[ClickMini]

Yes, you got it right TargetsMom. I am saying that having a tabletop croup does NOT help a horse that is slated for driving. Can they have big floaty movement? Yes, you bet! But it doesn't equate to a "powerful" rear end, IMO. You don't see any warmbloods with tabletop croups. They are built to carry weight on that hind end, and that means being able to sit. A tabletop croup often leads to a horse that goes "out behind" itself. A major flaw in dressage, at any rate.

 

[Minimor]

I maintain that a tabletop croup will NOT hinder movement--nor will it prevent the horse from getting its hindlegs under itself--as long as that table top croup has good length. The horses that you see going with their legs out behind are generally those with a short hip--when the hip is short & the croup actually gets "too flat" in that it isn't just flat, but angles upward toward the dock of the tail--that is when it will have a negative impact on movement and power.

The key is really the length of hip--you want to look for a nice long hip and with that you are likely to have good hind end strength and 'drive'. A nice long hip is a desireable thing, regardless if it is part of a table top croup or a rounded croup--the table top croup/long hip will surely be stronger than the rounded croup/short hip of an otherwise equal horse.

I find that people put too much emphasis on the round/flat aspect of the croup and forget to look at the length of hip.

 

[Riverdance]

I am saying that having a tabletop croup does NOT help a horse that is slated for driving. Can they have big floaty movement? Yes, you bet! But it doesn't equate to a "powerful" rear end, IMO. You don't see any warmbloods with tabletop croups

Are they looking at the hip for a halter horse or a driving horse? In the AMHA halter arena, they like them set up square with a level topline, flat croup and a high tailset. A driving horse rear is a bit more sloped with a little bit lower tail set. This enables them to drop their rear and drive off of it.

As for warmbloods, I have not seen a warmblood driven either. Each breed likes a different look. Morgans have the more level topline with a more flat croup and they can drive, have you seen the parkhorses?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Amy good photos, I think you really hit the nail on the head with your explantations.

I want something with a good hip, good shoulder, not a tabletop back but not something thats real butt high or unbalanced, and most important of them all GOOD LEGS! Honestly the legs is what I find really hurts these minis.

 

[Minimor]

Morgans have the more level topline with a more flat croup and they can drive, have you seen the parkhorses?

Not a really good example, because a good many Morgans have the overly short hip, complete with the legs-out-behind-them movement...and some of the park horses are the worst offenders because they have their front ends cranked up so high and are dragging their hind feet! Not a problem if that's what you're wanting to show, but when you're looking for a good, well balanced driving horse--thinking CDE or dressage driving here--that isn't the conformation & movement one is wanting.

 

[Fanch]

I hope the origional poster doesn't feel like Im jacking the thread, but I thought I would add to it and ask a question.

My halter gelding has a bad hip. I've had some people say it, and I don't think its anything pretty. With more weight and with him soon to be driving, I think it may improve a bit, but anyways....why is his hip bad??? I know it doesn't look good, but the reason is unknown to me.

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc111/S...006_0711006.jpg

And one were hes not too bad looking

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc111/S...June2009121.jpg

 

[ClickMini]

Well there you go, you are getting the differences of opinion Lisa spoke about earlier! And a lot of it IS going to be personal preference. I spent 25 years with hunter/jumpers and dressage horses before getting my first mini. I want my minis to look as much like a good warmblood as possible, and be able to move like them too. I want that power and suspension in the gaits. Here are a couple of examples of nice warmbloods (and yes, warmbloods are most definitely driven!):

http://www.viddler.com/explore/hilltopfarm/videos/28/

http://ironspringfarm.com/vplayer/index.php?sv=1 (check out the warmblood stallions here...especially Riverman)

There are so many more examples out there. I personally will use the warmbloods and dressage-bred horses as my model for a horse that can carry itself properly and load the hind end. My reasoning for this is that they have been bred specifically for this activity for hundreds of years. In the dressage horses, you will NOT see a tabletop croup.

I can see the appeal from an aesthetic point of view for that flat croup. The halter horses out there I do think are stunning to look at. I am just looking for something a little different, myself. I do think my horses are competitive in halter as well, just shows that balance will win, regardless of the back shape.

I do think it is very beneficial to educate your eye on big horses as well as on the minis.

 

[Riverdance]

Morgans have the more level topline with a more flat croup and they can drive, have you seen the parkhorses?

Not a really good example, because a good many Morgans have the overly short hip, complete with the legs-out-behind-them movement...and some of the park horses are the worst offenders because they have their front ends cranked up so high and are dragging their hind feet! Not a problem if that's what you're wanting to show, but when you're looking for a good, well balanced driving horse--thinking CDE or dressage driving here--that isn't the conformation & movement one is wanting.

A poor moving Morgan leaves his legs behind him, but not so of a good moving one. A really good one uses his rear end to get the front end up and what a beautiful picture it makes. I too hate the ones who leave their rears behind, and yes, there are too many of them. Mainly because they are trained so much for their front ends, that many trainers do not work on the back end teaching them to engage. Still, when I was in Morgans, the leaving the rear behind was not a desired look.

 

[Riverdance]

I hope the origional poster doesn't feel like Im jacking the thread, but I thought I would add to it and ask a question.
My halter gelding has a bad hip. I've had some people say it, and I don't think its anything pretty. With more weight and with him soon to be driving, I think it may improve a bit, but anyways....why is his hip bad??? I know it doesn't look good, but the reason is unknown to me.

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc111/S...006_0711006.jpg

And one were hes not too bad looking

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc111/S...June2009121.jpg

In the first photo his back dips in the middle, then comes to a point at the hip and drops off sharply with a very low tailset. The second photo he is parked out a bit more, which levels him off a bit more.

Everyone is going to have their own preference with what the hip and topline look like depending on what type of horses they came from before. Many on this forum come from hunter jumper or quarterhorses.( I was a hunter jumper for years in my 20's and early 30's. But I have always liked the Morgan and the Arabian. (which do not always make great hunter jumpers, so I did not own one till I finished jumping))

The performance horser toplines and hips are very different. But the depth of hip should alwyas be the same. One needs the rear to be able to perform correctly.

 

[Margaret]

Thise videos were very good click mini. Of over all movement as well.

Here is a photo of a colt out of my stallion that I think shows a nice hip.

 

[loveminis]

All the line drawing form here to there, etc. I STILL don't get the hip thing LOL