Help! Lost 2nd baby this year.

[Chelley]

I am new to this forum. I need some help/opinions about my miniatures. We had our first baby last spring and it went great-uneventfully, and we enjoy them so much! My little stud is 29 1/2 inches and I have 2 mares 32 1/2 inches and 34 inches. One mare is 13 and has had several uneventful pregnancies, including the one we had with her last spring. The other mare is 5 and this was her first delivery (she had lost one at 4-months along). The 13-year-old mare was bred to my stud and delivered almost 2 months ago. However, we had to call out our vet because the baby was face up and feet pointing towards mama's head, so she could not deliver and the baby suffocated and died. The vet said this is an unusual presentation and that it was just a sad, freak deal. Almost 2 months later, this past Sunday evening, our 5-year-old mare went into labor and it was almost a repeat of the horrible event I just described. Had to call the vet out, and almost the exact same presentation with the same result, a dead foal. The vet again said it is just a run of bad luck and a freak thing. I am just sick and am ready to sell my mares and just keep our little stud and gelding, so afraid it will happen again. We had watched both mares so diligently but when it came down to it we lost the babies. We were all devastated and I am terrified at the thought of trying again for next year, as it was such a stressful, sad situation. Fortunately, both times the mares were fine, but it is so hard to see them go through that. Has anyone had similar experiences, and if they have delivered one with this abnormal presentation is it likely they will have problems with abnormal presentation in future pregnancies? Someone asked if it could be related to something genetically with the stud, which seems unlikely to me, but just trying to rule-out anything. Any thoughts on that? Several have told me to not give up and to try again, that it was just a bad year, but they are not mini horse people either. The mares were not on fescue grass...I can't think of anything I could have done differently to prevent this. Any thoughts? Thanks so much for your input. Chelley

 

[bannerminis]

So sorry for your loss that is just so sad. Its so hard to wait 11 months (or 12/13 months going by this yr) to have it all go horribly wrong.

I have a maiden due soon and I am on pins and needles but all I can do is wait and see what is presented to me.

Dont give up - I know its hard but I do think it was just some very bad luck.

I am sure that next yr you will have 2 gorgeous babies to ease your pain.

 

[Eagle]

Oh I am so sorry and believe me, I know what you are going through. These terrible things can happen to people too but we can have c sections, it is not your mare or your stallions fault. I have one mare that has lost her last 3 foals. This year she was presenting well and she was on marestare so I had plenty of help ready but as the foal progressed I realised that it had a back leg up, it only took me a few minutes to get it sorted but it was just too much and the foal died. It wasn't the mares fault it was just very bad luck.

Minis are much more prone to birthing problems as they are so very small and the foals are big in proportion. When breeding we must be prepared for the worst as it does occasionally happen. Saying that when I first started with minis I let them foal alone out in the field and I never lost one, the more I read about them the more I started to worry so now they all stay in at night and are under cam. Maybe nature knows best!!!

(((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))

Renee

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Best prevention is a PROACTIVE foal watch system... one that allows you to sit and watch the mares so you can help with dystocias and issues before they are unfixable. My suggestion is cameras, coffee, and Foal Watch. Its a milk calcium test, allows you to sit up and watch the mares only a few nights, rather than the unmanangable task of watching for weeks. The advantage of this over, say, Foal Alert, is Foal Alert triggers AFTER the problem is already a crisis. Once the legs are out of the mare, you have issues that are much more severe than if you start assessing the foal as soon as the legs pass the cervix. You can adjust a foal when they are still in the uterus. Other than that, the vet is very right in that its a freak happening. The only thing you could look at is were the babies preterm, and figure if there is a pathological reason why they presented early. I'm very sorry for your loss

Minis are a hard game to get into.

 

[mrsj]

Hi, I am very sorry you lost two foals, just wanted to send you my sympathy. I am glad your mares were ok though. X

 

[REO]

I'm so sorry that happened

That would take the heart out of anyone.

I know this might not be the exact same thing, but maybe it might help you or someone else that reads it. Here is something I wrote about upside down foals & how to easily fix.

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=123946

I hope that if you decide to try again, that it never happens again! {{{hugs}}}

 

[AnnaC]

I'm so very sorry for your losses. Sometimes things just go wrong and there is nothing you can do. But if you are right here as soon as the mare looks like she is about to foal, there are things you can do to help/adjust especially if you have a helper and can get the mare up so the foal an be 'pushed back' into the mare, before it has come too far down the birthing canal.

Do have a read of Reo's article - it is very interesting and informative.

So glad your girls are ok, but dont give up, next year it might be a completely different story.

Anna

 

[Minimor]

What day were the mares at when they foaled? Were they right on time, or somewhat late?

 

[Chelley]

Thanks to all for the kind words and thoughts. Reo, I read the info you wrote and that is very interesting. I will print it out, and PRAY I never have to use it...still unsure about trying again as I feel lucky I didn't lose my mares and worry that it could be worse instead of better next year. My daughter wants to give one more try, so we will see. The first mare's foal was born 4 days after projected due date (according to a 336 day gestation table that I used to calculate), so around 340 days gestation. The second mare was close to projected due date, maybe within 2 weeks, but I was not as certain as when she was bred, as I had lost where it was written down, so an educated guess, but unfortunately not exactly sure. What can it signify if they are late? They were both beautiful, perfect looking babies, just makes me sad... Has anyone had repeated problems with the same mare having dystocia? I am just gun shy for next year. One mare has a good history of smooth deliveries, but for my other mare this was her first delivery. I am new at this and I know everyone has to start somewhere, but I almost feel guilty trying it again after losing 2. I have read lots of books as well as on the internet, but its a lot different when it is happening in front of you and to your pets.

 

[targetsmom]

I am really sorry to hear about your bad luck but am also afraid I can really identify with it. We have been breeding 2 mares (usually) every year since 2006 and only have one living foal to show for our efforts and expense - and heartache. We were ready to give up in 2009 after an experience similar to yours (well, our foal had to be cut up to get out) and before we had our first live foal. We tried unsuccessfully to find someone to foal out our other mare, but she went into labor five days later with the same type of dystocia. But a miracle happened (with help from our panicked vet) and our dream foal Max was delivered safely. As you can see from my avatar, our bad luck didn't end there, as he didn't survive to 2 years old. We had one live foal born here in 2010 and lost both foals due this year.

We are giving it ONE MORE try and then we may very likely give up. So I am not about to urge you to keep trying. Breeding minis is NOT for the faint of heart, maybe just for us stubborn types. But please don't give up on MINIS - they have so much to offer besides making babies. I have gotten hooked on driving, plus we show and do public service with them where we can. We have decided we will never breed the driving mare, as we will not risk losing her to foaling.

 

[sfmini]

When you breed horses or for that matter any species you have to be ready to accept the risks that come along with it. With minis you risk loss of the mare, the foal, dystocias, it is a crap shoot and if you aren't willing to risk your mares then you might want to consider not breeding and buying weanlings to raise if you want to raise a baby. Also, ask yourself why you are breeding, especially now with a flooded market and low prices.

This is the same talk I gave to pet Corgi owners when they approached me about breeding to my dog. I always talked them out of it as their bitches were pet quality and small and my boy was really large and would have put their beloved girls at a very high risk for c-section or maternal death, or if they did get puppies, they still wouldn't get that puppy that would be just like mama anyway. I caused quite a few pet girls to be spayed and my boy (who was an AKC champion) died a virgin which ended up to be a good thing as he and a littermate ended up having a degenerative genetic disease that shows up later in life.

 

[Sandy B]

I am so sorry about your losses! It is heart wrenching waiting all that time and then having nothing for it after you were so excited. This year was our first year expecting mini foals and we lost both our expected foals and actually a mare too. We lost a mare & foal to severe dystocia and another foal that did not make it out of the sac (we had just checked her 30 minutes earlier and there was no labor signs at all). I have been breeding large horses for years and years and the minis are my 11 year old daughter's. It was a horrific first year for us and we too almost gave up. The one thing I learned is that minis are very unpredictable and that they have much greater complications than full sized horses or even ponies. There are much greater risks for dystocia, breech delivery, red bags, and foals that do not make it out of the sacs as well as foaling with hardly any warning sign. Someone on this forum posts on their signature "the only thing predictable about minis is that they are unpredictable" and that is so true. I encourage you to either become more knowledgeable about what to do in case of dystocia or look in to have an experienced mini horse breeding farm foal out your mares next year. Again, I am so sorry for your terrible losses!

 

[Marty]

I am very sorry for your loss and I don't blame you one bit for being gun shy. I have had no problems at all but I don't want to push my luck and wait until something horrific happens. I do not care to risk my mares so I decided to quit while I was ahead. The constant worry is just too much for me. If I need a foal that bad, I'll go buy one. Best wishes.

 

[chandab]

We are giving it ONE MORE try and then we may very likely give up. So I am not about to urge you to keep trying. Breeding minis is NOT for the faint of heart, maybe just for us stubborn types. But please don't give up on MINIS - they have so much to offer besides making babies. I have gotten hooked on driving, plus we show and do public service with them where we can. We have decided we will never breed the driving mare, as we will not risk losing her to foaling.

I agree don't give up on minis. I haven't had much luck with breeding, so far. Since getting my minis in 2005, two foals have been born here; one to a mare purchased bred, foal only survived 24 hours and the second is a healthy, obnoxious 2 year old filly (that can happen with only foals, they get a little spoiled

). Tuesday, I had one of my stallions gelded; he has proven to be infertile, but he's my buddy, so staying here to live a happy life as a gelding. Its definitely trying, but I must be one of those stubborn types, as I'm not ready to give up quite yet.

 

[Minimor]

I asked about the length of gestation because multiple dystocias combined with overdue delivery dates can be an indication of congenital hypothyroidism--caused by high nitrates in feed or water, combined with iodine deficiency. As a researcher once told me, from his observations if the mares are getting the right minerals they can overcome the nitrate-related problems. But, if they are getting high nitrates and they do not have the right balance of minerals in their systems, that is when the problems show up.

Several years ago we had this issue; we didn't have dystocias but did lose foals that were born too weak to survive. Another breeder here, though, had a number of serious dystocias that same year--she managed to save the foals but they then had leg problems. She also lost a number of foals otherwise. Her vet finally determined that it was congenital hypothyroidism due to an iodine deficiency--and probably high nitrates in her hay. She immediately started giving her mares a supplement high in iodine and after just 2 weeks on that her later foaling mares all foaled without difficulty, with no more foal losses.

Just an idea for you to look at--if your mares are getting a good mineral supplement that likely isn't your issue. But, if they don't get much for minerals, especially iodine, or if they have mineral or salt blocks that they aren't using, you might want to look for a different supplement for them.

 

[Chelley]

Hmmm, that is interesting. They do have mineral blocks and salt blocks available to them, nothing fancy, just the basic ones, but I noticed the other day it doesn't look like they have touched them in a long time. They get a little bit of grain twice a day, and all the prairie hay they can eat. It just seemed so weird to me that after the first one my vet said it was a really weird presentation, and then the second one was in almost the exact same position. Of course, we live in a small town area and although our vet is very knowledgeable with livestock, not sure how many mini horse patients they have had, so that may be why it seemed so unusual to them. Maybe it is not that unusual in minis, which makes it all the more scary.

Someone asked why we wanted to raise them. We used to have quater horses to ride, but didn't ride so much anymore so we sold them. Still had horses in the blood though and have always loved minis so my husband bought me one several years back for an anniversary present. LOVED IT, like my big dog, and one was not enough. A lady was selling out hers as she was older and having health problems. We bought our mares from her and me and my daughters wanted to try to have a few babies to add to our litte "herd". Never thought we could make money on them, as they just don't sell for much around here.

I have spoken to a lady nearby and she has a young colt that is getting ready to wean soon and I think we are going to buy him from her so we will have something to work with this year and help us heal over our losses. I will get him gelded. At this point, I think I have decided to keep one of the mares and give it one more go with her, as I let her get bred back before this second fiasco. She has a super sweet personality and it breaks my heart to think of getting rid of her. The other mare is more reserved and doesn't like to be messed with a lot, so I think I am going to find her another home and not let her get bred again.

Someone said that breeding minis is not for the faint of heart. People used to ask me, "What are they good for?" and I would tell them that they are good for your heart, which I still truly believe, but breeding them has recently taken some years off mine.

 

[Mareish Mom]

I was going to suggest that if you decided to give it one more try that you breed the older experienced mare, which is what it sounds like has happened anyway. And sell the younger one. So, I think you have made your decision and I wish you good luck! Very interesting about the minerals, I'd make sure your mare gets plenty of free choice minerals in different forms so she can choose which one she needs/likes. I always have an Equimin block out (the most complete mineral block made for horses that I have found; at Southern States). In addition I have a bucket with loose iodized salt and one with a loose mineral blend. I just don't think horses will get enough salt from a regular salt block, especially in hot weather. The Equimin block is softer and they can actually take a bite out of it. And loose salt they can lick up as much as they need very easily. If you've never used the Equimin blocks before you will notice that the first one you put out disappears very quickly as they love the taste, but subsequent blocks will last longer as the horses mineral needs balance out.

 

[Chelley]

Thanks! I feel pretty comfortable with that decision, in trying one more time with the older one and selling the other. I am heading into town in a little while and I will look for the minerals and salt you talked about. My daughters (me too) really were looking forward to another baby, so I think they will be happy if I buy that other horse colt, as we just thoroughly enjoy them so much. My little stud horse has the heart of a mighty stallion...at least he thinks he is, but he is as gentle and sweet as can be with us and loves nothing more than to be brushed and loved on. When the weather changes they all (we have 4) run and kick and buck and swing their heads. They are just a constant entertainment and joy! Nothing is more relaxing than to go to my barn and "play" with the horses...a beautiful distraction in a crazy world!

I was going to suggest that if you decided to give it one more try that you breed the older experienced mare, which is what it sounds like has happened anyway. And sell the younger one. So, I think you have made your decision and I wish you good luck! Very interesting about the minerals, I'd make sure your mare gets plenty of free choice minerals in different forms so she can choose which one she needs/likes. I always have an Equimin block out (the most complete mineral block made for horses that I have found; at Southern States). In addition I have a bucket with loose iodized salt and one with a loose mineral blend. I just don't think horses will get enough salt from a regular salt block, especially in hot weather. The Equimin block is softer and they can actually take a bite out of it. And loose salt they can lick up as much as they need very easily. If you've never used the Equimin blocks before you will notice that the first one you put out disappears very quickly as they love the taste, but subsequent blocks will last longer as the horses mineral needs balance out.

 

[Eagle]

They are just a constant entertainment and joy! Nothing is more relaxing than to go to my barn and "play" with the horses...a beautiful distraction in a crazy world!

I couldn't agree more. When I walk down to my barn I feel like I have gone miles away from the real world.

 

[Chelley]

Aww Thanks! Made me teary eyed. Just such an emotional thing to be so anxious and excited, then so scared, then so sad and disappointed...I LOVE them and I pray that next year we will have the joy that we experienced last year of seeing our sweet little baby with its mama, watching it run around and play, and carrying it around like a dog-yes, I know, but we did!

There is nothing quite like it!

I don't know where you live, but Selenium is important and not naturally available where I live in Florida. So I use a Selenium enriched lick, and loose minerals to supplement this, and I believe that it has truly helped here.

It sounds like you have a plan for next year with your older mare, and perhaps you can add a mare in foal to your little herd, and replace the mare you have decided to sell. It will bring new lines in, and you can choose one with a better personality for yourself!

YES, THEY ARE GOOD FOR THE HEART! Don't quit yet -- I wouldn't miss having a little one born and raised here for anything. Yes, the market is over-crowded, but it sounds like you would be keeping your little one(s) and there is nothing as fun than being at the birth of a healthy foal. We all have had our losses -- but most of us keep trying because the pleasure outweighs the pain! And next year's successes will add YEARS to your life!

Praying for good outcomes for next year! Don't forget to share with us!

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